DWARF Leopard Geckos???

Did the mother of the two leos in question actually have the same traits as them?

Yes, it is my understanding that she did. At 50 grams she was intermediat in size between the these two females that I am offering for Chris.

Have the two of them specifically been bred?

The two females that I am offering for sale to my knowledge have not been bred, but I will ask Chris.

Has the mother had any other offspring...viable or not?

She also produced the male, but I do not know how many other little ones she has produced, or if she produced any other viable or unviable eggs. I feel a little unprepared. I should have done my homework a little better...

Did she have any trouble laying?

Not to my knowledge

How old is she (I'm just wondering if there is a shorter lifespan than normal)?

I wish I knew that one, as I would have brought it up as part of the later more constructive discussion. Chris told me that she is pretty sure that she got her as a juvi or subadult in 2000.

I'm just curious...I'm not taking any stance on the "dwarf morph" until I know a lot more about it!

No Problem. I do not mind your questions, and may I have really enjoyed reading your contributions to the thread. You are a very knowledgable and well spoken individual. That, along with your objectiveness, is very refreshing.

I do respect you coming on here and looking at all the post and commenting on our posts (including mine) the way you did. With that being said, I know have a few things to say about your comments about me.

“In my experience, it is not a genetic defect, but rather just leos that had their growth stunted. How is this done, well, low temps and/or improper amounts of food. Large loads of parasites might also help out.”
Justyn Miller

It sounds like maybe you should brush up on your husbandry skills.

I really don't think I need to comment on this, but I will. I've been employed by one of the world's most respected zoos and other fine establisments. Not to mention my numorus articles in several magazines including Reptiles magazine. I've breed many rare and endagnered species without problems from my "flawed' husbandry skills. Many of these were for the first time in captivity.

[quote]
“This can cause serious problems if you wish to breed the animal in question. Females are likely to become egg bound, they are also likely to drop massive amounts of weight during egg production. She may not be able to recover and die shortly there after. As you can see, bad news!”
Justyn Miller

How do you figure? Have you bred these specific animals? What experience do you have with this line of geckos? From what you have said you seem to have at least some experience with stunted animals and you seem to know how to get them to be stunted. These Geckos are small for a totally different reason, so how is any of what you are saying relevant to them?[quote]

I come to that statement from years of my own breedings, including a few few stunted (aka dwarf) animals I have obtained in the past, as well as seeing several breeders over the years try to line breed "dwarf" leopard geckos.

[quote]
“I for one would seriously take a look at the person offering them, and consider their ethics involved with selling animals.”
Justyn Miller

Maybe you should go to the BOI and do exactly do just that. My name is James Wilson.[quote]

I am not saying anything about how nice you are to people or anything about your business skills. I am talking about your ethics selling "dwarf" leopard geckos. You can take that as you want, but they fall below my books.

“Perhaps they are simply misguided or ignorant, but something is currently wrong with their mode of thought.”
Justyn Miller

Wow! It is ironic that the expert on how to stunt animals is saying this. You have some nerve coming here on a Reptile forum and attacking my character and coming to these conclusions. Without knowing anything about these animals in question, the person that produced them, or the pperson that is selling them. You sure know how to make friends.

I'm not going to play politics to make friends, I am going to state what I see. I've seen people do the same thing every year, each time trying to sell "dwarf" geckos. Do you think you are the first one, well, you are wrong. I don't need to know where your geckos came from, I've seen the pics of the animals, and I've dealt with similar animals myself. I thought that was enough for me to comment on this issue. I am not saying I am correct about it, I am stating my thoughts, simple as day. I still think you are wrong for selling these animals, and I still think you lack certain ethics if you contuine to sale these animals.

Thanks James!...there are others around that would disagree with you though Anyway...I for one would very much appreciate it if you could get the rest of the answers to my questions (as I personally have no experience with "dwarfs" and am curious).

Well justyn, It looks as though we both have a few things in common. I too have published articles in both Reptiles magazine and REPTILES USA, and I too have zoo experience as a Keeper and a Dietician. I guess I did not really see how it was relevant to the subject. But since you seem to place some value on that sort of thing, there it is.

Also, if you read your post I am sure you can see how it looks as though you were actually saying that you were producing stunted animals. I guess you did not mean it that way, and I am not going to say I was wrong, as that is how I saw it. Maybe you jumped the gun? But that really is your call isn't it.

"I come to that statement from years of my own breedings, including a few few stunted (aka dwarf) animals I have obtained in the past, as well as seeing several breeders over the years try to line breed "dwarf" leopard geckos."

Did you not read the history of these animals? They are not stunted. It is a small line or a dwarf, simple as that. They are not stunted animals. You have nothing to base that on. I however have facts that I gave here. You do not have to like them (dwarfs) or me, but you were wrong with your assumptions.

"I'm not going to play politics to make friends,"

Apparently not.

"I am going to state what I see."

And you saw three small geckos. Nothing more, nothing less. You have absolutely no way of knowing how they came to be that way. It was just speculation on your part. I ask you again do you have any experience working with this like from Julie Bergman?

"I've seen people do the same thing every year, each time trying to sell "dwarf" geckos. Do you think you are the first one?"

I never even considered it.

"Well, you are wrong."

I never said I was the first one. Like I said I never even thought about it. I simply represented these animals exactly in the way that they were described to be by someone that I know and trust.

"I don't need to know where your geckos came from"

I guess you don't if you are not interested in the truth, and if you are only interested in coming to your own presumptuous conclusions that just happen to serve your personal opinions. You sound like a real man of science to me.

"I've seen the pics of the animals, and I've dealt with similar animals myself."

I guess you have seen it all... You saw pics of small leopard Geckos. there is more than one way to get to any certain destination. Just because you dealt with stunted animals does not, in any way, mean that every small leopard gecko is stunted. Your logic is flawed.


"I thought that was enough for me to comment on this issue. I am not saying I am correct about it,"

That is a start.

"I am stating my thoughts, simple as day. I still think you are wrong for selling these animals,"

Maybe they are not for you, but you cannot speak for the whole hobby. I think that YOU are wrong for ignoring the facts and throwing the whole scientific method out the window in order to serve own presumptuous conclusions.

"and I still think you lack certain ethics if you contuine to sale these animals."

And I in turn think you lack scientific ethics.

I will try to talk to Chris tomorow. Thanks for your thoughts.

Why would you want to produce "dwarf leos"? I just don't see the value in it. I prefer the stronger, more robust animals in my collection.

I think what you have, or what your friend has, are some normal leopard geckos that happen to be short and squaty. That;s it.

I think it's fantastic that your friend has bred Nephrurus and it is totally cool that she has worked with the other animals that she has worked with and I agree with you that itis a bit hypocritical that some are calling the "dwarves" an undesireable trait while also saying that the Tremper Giants are so desirable.

I have some leos in my collection that are small. Some of the females top out at 50 grams. I feel that there are many different localities of leos and some are small, some are large.

While I am not in any way interested in your "dwarves", I think it is more than a tad hypocritical for us to condemn you while we celebrate "Giants". What is the difference my friends? Anyone?

I personally have zero interest in breeding these dwarfs. I am not a gecko guy at all (I did breed some killer tokays for a couple of years). I am simply selling these for a friend (Chris), and feel it is important to represent them as honestly as I can. I am more into rosy Boas and insular giant Chuckwallas (hispidus and varius) Ironically, the other two insular forms (slivini and klauberi) took the opposite evolutionary path leaning toward dwarfism.

Lookin' forward to the info! anyway...I just wanna know why y'all are up so late!!...I'm a college student...I'm supposed to be up late! Anyway...i'm going to bed! (no classes on fridays but I need to get up by noon cause I'm going to get my exiled leos back from on campus...if the woman who's watching them for me will be around anyway... )

I am just sleeping while I type Maybe I should go lay down for a while. Good night, and thanks again for sharing your opinions in a civil fashion.