IBD and still selling snakes! How do you feel?

If there was a case of a Vet/lab proven IBD infection in an animal that you have sold, do you still sell snakes and accuse everyone else of being at fault? I will not be an accuser because other than being cautious I am not involved! I am sure most of you have heard by now the names dropped in this situation. I ask that each and every one of my fellow herpers to be careful about purchasing animals that may have come through these locations until this gets straightened out. This one case could prove devistating to collections all over the states. Thats why I care and you should too! Tell us how you feel............ <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Chris McAra

Giantkeeper Reptiles

If I sold the snake.....and I knew where it came from.

1. spam_ I would disclose the information.
2. spam_ I would offer my sincere apologies and a refund / replacement to the person I sold it to.
3. spam_ I would make sure the person I sold to knows that I WILL NOT be responsible for the whole collection. spam_Just the animals I sold. spam_(practice good quarantine)

4. spam_I will not sell a single animal. &nbsp;At least not until I am able to do the cheapest test I could think of spam_(The Ball Python Test)

The Ball Python Test
Separate all the animals and put each and every single one in their own enclosures. spam_ Put a healthy ball python with each animal. spam_ If after sixty days the ball python is still healthy.....then the animal with it is healthy.


I know some of you may think that is mean. spam_ But it is the best that I could think of without killing the whole entire collection.

Good luck to all parties involved.

And to the person who bought it...........Thanks for letting us know. spam_I do not know if I said it...But please know that I am saying it now. spam_I appreciate your post. spam_ THANKS &nbsp;FOR LOOKING OUT FOR US <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

I'm with Ritchie on that one. But Chris, I gotta tell you man, the thing that bugs me the most is the fact that this seller is actually arrogant about it and acts like it is no big deal because he acquired them from someone else and they were not in his posession very long. If it were me I would be one HUMBLE MF'r right about now!

That's OK - we all learn where or where NOT to shop as a result.

Peace - TC
TC Reptile

Whoops....thought this new fancy board showed your registration name........so before I get dinged by the Webslave.....the full name is Tom Chambers! (TC Reptile)

Tom,

You make an excellent point. HUMILITY is something that is needed right now as well as honest disclosure and a halt on sales. I DONT see the humility, just an absence of self promotion and picutres that are that persons trademark. &nbsp;As for passing the buck, hey I dont know al the particulars, but DO know the individual in Calif.(Dale) that sells boas, he has been keeping, breeding and selling high quality boas for 10 years, and 9 years ago I bought what were probably the best boas I have ever seen, forum boas included, from him. &nbsp; This doesnt make me his personal friend, just a guy that has seen his setup and the snakes he sells. Havent bought any from him in a long time(9yrs( but that is because I was buying other stuf(Indigos&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
I am amused that Chris should take so much heat, just like KEMPER did, and wonder how many other people with similar tales of &nbsp;pain will keep their MOUTHS shut while this guy goes on selling boas like nothing has happend. And I am NOT talking about Dale, let me make that clear.

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fred

ANYONE, I mean ANYONE knowingly selling IBD animals should be kicked permenantly out of the reptile fraternaty. spam_ IBD can wipe out an entire collection! spam_ It is much different to sell an animal that you INFORM the buyer has mites, or a scar or something minor. spam_ BUT, to sell an IBD animal is TOTALLY unethical and wrong, and will lead to me never!!!! spam_I mean never buying anything from you!! spam_ Even with the best hygene in your collection, a wrong water dish or something freakish like that can wipe out an entire collection. spam_ IBD is serious, and my feeling that any animal found with it should be put down. spam_ I am no vet, but that is my feeling.

David I agree with you 100%! I wish the people who are responsible felt the same way. From the classifieds I would have to say it is business as usual. Maybe the frat should get together and start kicking!

Chris McAra
Giantkeeper Reptiles <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

I do not know Bill Cagle, I tried to do business with him once about a year ago and we did not hit it off. Personally, I have never understood the hype that surrounds his business. People in the forums brag on getting an animal of his as if it is something special and unique, a brand-name almost. My understanding is that he is a reseller and that more than a few people who have a good relationship with him have been pleased with what they got. But as this current affair illustrates he (and all resellers) has limited control over the qualiity of his stock. Even assuming his set-up is perfect, he only ships, good or bad, what someone else has already passed on. This grading by health, size and appearance and deciding who-gets-what begins when the animal pops out of the egg or mother or even when it is picked up by a collector a long way and many hands away from most end-customers. "My animals are hand-picked!", of course they are but hand-picked for what and with whom in mind? So was the animal that died of IBD.

Resellers have a place in the market and provide an important service but in my mind there is no cause to place them in the same category as people who spend years to produce exceptional-quality animals. Of course, breeders, dealers or resellers, any of them can please you by providing what you want and any could really screw you over if they are dishonest.

It would have been best if he could have settled his problems with the guy who had the sick animals outside the public forums. The way this dispuute has grown speaks as much about stubbornness as it does about the issues of IBD and a seller's responsibility when an animal turns out to be very sick, contagious or both. What should he do? If he or anyone has sold an animal he knows to have been exposed to IBD or another devastating contagion they should own up to it and follow through with their customers to make it right.

Should he or anybody with IBD in their animals freeze or burn all their animals? That depends... is this (following) a description of your collection?...................

Animals are caged in groups and the enclosures are rarely cleaned thoroughly. You use the same cages (many of which are low-tech and cannot be disinfected even if you try) for the next animal, or ten animals that come your way. Mites are a recurring problem. Food items not consumed by one animal are given to another. Shift-cages are rarely disinfected. Bags and boxes are reused without being cleaned and disinfected. Your buddies and customers bring stuff into your animal rooms and you pass them around and admire them, sometimes you lend out or borrow each other's animals for breeding or whatever. You buy and sell and trade animals at a whim with anybody or even if you just need a few bucks to party this weekend..............

If the above describes you and your set-up then yes, you should euthanize all your animals. Probably you should not be allowed to keep animals except as a pet and be ostracized from the entire herping community too.

As for everybody else who is now holding one or several animals that came from Bill they have a tough decision to make. They can either trust that he uses the proper care in handling and housing his stock and sleep well or they can take the needed steps to protect their stock and that of their friends and customers. Both sides need to calm down. I feel many are using this to attack Bill for reasons other than this current incident. It also seems true that many are supporting him and his response to this situation for personal reasons of their own, not taking into account the seriousness of the problem.

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts.

A. Rentfro
Gus@RioBravoReptiles.com

i dont buy from breeders except for 1
i sell what he & i produce, and wc, all new snakes go to my rat building for 2 sheds, they are kept away frm my collection, 10 miles from farm to my house, an i safe, do have 4 trios from breederscoming in for my collection, any way, im in the Panama city area if any one needs to isolate some snakes, we have room & cages, just give my helper 10.00 or so to pay for te feed and we can hlod them for 60 to 90 days
cant be responaible for them but will do our bestto help you out,we have now about25 colubrid size cages empty
Contact me spam_
Thanks Gene

I personally think that Bill started out doing the right thing by the customer. &nbsp;I dinthink he had any inclination that the animals were infected with IBD or he would not endanger his own breeding stock by keeping them around for even a single day. &nbsp;I also agree with the above posts that after finding this out he at the very least should hold off selling any more animals until he is sure that no other animals could be affected. The fact that he is still readily posting without disclosing any possibility of a problem in my opinion is the same as selling sick animals as healthy ones and then saying "BUYER BEWARE" . &nbsp;If in fact more animals are infected then by shipping he could be spreading it everywhere and doing everyone involved in the herp community an incredible disservice. I dont know Bill personally or have never bought from him but knowing what is currently going on and what could be at stake I wouldnt take one of his animals for FREE !!! and I certainly wouldnt buy anything from him until this was cleared up. &nbsp;The funny thing is that he doesnt seem worried about it from what I have read. At the very least he should be OUTED for what is going on. &nbsp;This could be finnancially devastating for Bill even to just test all his animals, but he has to realize the damage he could be doing to the entire herp community, and things like this give people and organizations like the Humane Society even more fuel for their fire when they zero in on irresponsible owners and breeders. &nbsp;In my opinion the one thing missing in the herp community today is dignity, and this is achieved by following good practices such as honesty,integrity and responsibility. &nbsp;Cases like this make us all look bad. &nbsp;Not only that but anyone who has purchased one of his animals is also in danger of spreading the disease, whether knowingly or unknowingly and we are at the mercies of their honesty as well, and we have to hope that they are not dishonest enough to try and pass these animals off as not coming from BIll. &nbsp;I think I have said more than enough to give you something to think about.


Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles