Building a better mousetrap

Originally Posted by WebSlave

So, yes, I did test you all. Some passed, actually quite a few initially, but that fell off rapidly as the 1 year mark was passed. Ads here are barely passable in quantity, and certainly the paid memberships, for the number of active members, much less TOTAL registered members is pitiful. So looking upon this as a "job" where compensation is received for effort produced, I found it wanting, and therefore just quit.

I really don't want to turn this thread into another reincarnation of the Wild, Wild West thread, my intention here was to understand what brings people to a forum and then keeps them there.

However, I think one thing needs to be said regarding the above statement.
I am only speaking for myself, but I'm pretty sure that there are others with the same mindset.

I joined in at the highest level and was happy to do so to support this forum. I would have been very happy to continue my membership at the higher level when the anniversary date came around, except the site changed dramatically during the course of that year.

The level of service and moderation dropped considerably and it became difficult to justify the expense for a forum that was no longer being managed the way it was prior to the monies being paid.

You give your reasons for taking a hands-off approach here as it was not justified by the level of support from the membership. I contend that the membership lessened their support as a result of the hands-off approach.

Regardless, it's your site and your call. Hopefully, whatever group of people step up to grab the rudder and steer can enjoy the fruits of their efforts.

Originally Posted by Mike Greathouse

You give your reasons for taking a hands-off approach here as it was not justified by the level of support from the membership. I contend that the membership lessened their support as a result of the hands-off approach.

Thank you!!

Originally Posted by Mike Greathouse

You give your reasons for taking a hands-off approach here as it was not justified by the level of support from the membership. I contend that the membership lessened their support as a result of the hands-off approach.

I really like this site.
I don't know why there are higher levels of ads and participation in a site like KS, where the moderation is almost overpowering.
And yet, I can see how a hands off approach might not attract vendors.

Mike, your thread was about why people return to a site. Briefly, putting myself in the shoes of a vendor, I would not want a site where I would be criticized after paying money.
And yet, that happens sometimes in the BOI, but the BOI is an invaluable tool for the reptile community.

So there is a tradeoff, in order to foster a sense of open communication one has to allow some criticism, and that might scare off vendors who might not want such criticism aimed at them, justified or not.

That forecloses an avenue of income for the site and it has to be made up in other ways for the effort of maintaining a site to be worthwhile.
I am sad that more people did not renew because that seems to me to be an ideal way of maintaining the BOI without making concessions to vendors that might destroy the BOI integrity.

Without strong vendor support or community financial support, there is a huge amount of work for very little return.

A site has to have some hands on moderation to prosper. I think if we want to return to that environment, we have to make it happen.

Originally Posted by Mike Greathouse

I really don't want to turn this thread into another reincarnation of the Wild, Wild West thread, my intention here was to understand what brings people to a forum and then keeps them there.

However, I think one thing needs to be said regarding the above statement.
I am only speaking for myself, but I'm pretty sure that there are others with the same mindset.

I joined in at the highest level and was happy to do so to support this forum. I would have been very happy to continue my membership at the higher level when the anniversary date came around, except the site changed dramatically during the course of that year.

The level of service and moderation dropped considerably and it became difficult to justify the expense for a forum that was no longer being managed the way it was prior to the monies being paid.

You give your reasons for taking a hands-off approach here as it was not justified by the level of support from the membership. I contend that the membership lessened their support as a result of the hands-off approach.

Regardless, it's your site and your call. Hopefully, whatever group of people step up to grab the rudder and steer can enjoy the fruits of their efforts.

Sorry Mike, but I think your recollection of the timeline may be incorrect. I dropped the strict moderation thing on or about 06/24/06. This is documented in a thread at the top of the BOI about my dropping the paid membership requirement for posting in that forum (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=82476). This was concurrent with my decision to let go the heavy handed moderation to try to bring this site into a more respectable shape. YOUR Endowment level membership was terminated before that event. Matter of fact, your current membership was started on 02/16/06 clearly indicating that your decision to lessen your support was not, in fact, influenced at all by my decision to reduce my management efforts, as it preceded that event by several months. I think the thread first indicating this change in the wind you speak of is here -> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=82259. Please note the date, and correct me if I am wrong in MY timeline.

Hate to point you out specifically, but heck, if I can take it, then I guess you can to.

I think you have the chicken and egg chronological situation somewhat scrambled. My decision to pull the hands away from the rudder was AFTER I saw paid membership renewals dropping and the levels of those memberships being reduced as well. Participation in general was also dropping away as well. Not the other way around. What that was telling me, quite frankly, is that many people did not care for the direction this site was taking, so I just listened to that call and made a BIG correction. Sure, some are going to say it now went too far in the other direction, but if that target is so small that infinitely finer and finer corrections are needed to hit it, sorry, but I'm just not interested in maintaining that level of precision steering.

Certainly some did drop their paid memberships after that event, but the significant "drop out" I saw was BEFORE, not AFTER. So unless I am FAR off of my understanding of the chronological events, I believe I correctly interpreted the feedback the paid memberships was providing for me.

So what is this all telling me now? Well I guess, I need to pull out that old tune and play it here again. It's entitled "No Matter What I Do Here, Most Will Not Approve Of It." There are FAR too many backseat drivers here, all pointing in different directions and ALL adamant that THEIR direction is the ONLY correct one. Which, of course, is not very likely.

Rich,
In my opinion, this was where the decline started, and as you can see from the date of the post, we were only five months into the "New" paid program.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=69994

I have not yet found the "Walk Away" post, but I'm sure someone will locate it. It seems like everything started to decline and you were just fed up with it all during that time.

Fixing the timeline more precisely will take some work, but I specifically remember speaking with other members in 2005 about your intentions and actions regarding the site.

Again, I don't want this to become a Rich bashing parade. I'm simply trying to justify to you my decision for not renewing at the higher level.

Hope this help to clarify things.

Originally Posted by Mike Greathouse

Rich,
In my opinion, this was where the downfall started, and as you can see from the date of the post, we were only five months into the "New" paid program.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=69994

I have not yet found the "Walk Away" post, but I'm sure someone will locate it. It seems like everything started to decline and you were just fed up with it all during that time.

Fixing the timeline more precisely will take some work, but I specifically remember speaking with other members in 2005 about your intentions and actions regarding the site.

Again, I don't want this to become a Rich bashing parade. I'm simply trying to justify to you my decision for not renewing at the higher level.

Hope this help to clarify things.

I would agree with Mike wholeheartedly as to the thread linked above being the lynchpin of all the changes. I rememeber he an I discussing it at length at the time. I agree also that this, absolutely, should not turn into the WWW 3, 4 or 5 but that WAS the definitive post that made me also drop my Endowment level membership. Why pay for a level of service when it is no longer being offerred?

That said, I have to admit that I spend more time on the BOI than I probably should. However, I do peruse the discussion forums and offer help where I can. There are a number of remarkable personalities that frequent this site whose posts, in any forum, I always enjoy. So I also agree that the membership itself is a major draw.

Originally Posted by Mike Greathouse

Rich,
In my opinion, this was where the decline started, and as you can see from the date of the post, we were only five months into the "New" paid program.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=69994

I have not yet found the "Walk Away" post, but I'm sure someone will locate it. It seems like everything started to decline and you were just fed up with it all during that time.

Fixing the timeline more precisely will take some work, but I specifically remember speaking with other members in 2005 about your intentions and actions regarding the site.

Again, I don't want this to become a Rich bashing parade. I'm simply trying to justify to you my decision for not renewing at the higher level.

Hope this help to clarify things.

Mike,

That particular post was the result of the head bashing between Chris Johnson and myself in reference to the Hayden Auction incident. At that time, some people here, supporting Chris in favor of my own claims, got me to doubting my own judgment. So yes, I decided to roll back some decisions that I felt could have been just as wrong as the popular opinion that I was wrong about Chris Johnson.... Just goes to show you have much faith one should have in popular opinions, I guess.. But not long afterwards, I got over that, and the rules were very shortly put back into place.

Somewhere in that timeline is also a period when I REALLY cracked down on the rules, but I'm not sure how that figured into your decision, Mike. When the paid memberships WERE implemented, the rule enforcement really wasn't all that much different from what it is right now. I have just turned over that authority to a larger group of members. "Delegated" as someone once suggested that I do. I just no longer have the desire to suffer that continual headache. Some seem to feel it is no big deal, so let's see how that opinion changes over a period of time now that they are grabbing the nettle.

And push come to shove, I don't remember anywhere in that thread concerning paid memberships offering any level of service relating to rule enforcement here for that sort of payment received. There is a table of membership perks that lists things offered for the various levels of contributions, so anything outside of that listing was nothing I specifically offered. Or did I miss something there? Sure, I can see someone making a valid argument that the site then is quite different from now, but that is quite likely going to be the case as long as this site exists. It is going to CHANGE. Some will appreciate the changes, and others won't. Par for the course, if history is any guide here.

Whatever, you make your own decisions about what is important to you, just as I will make those decisions as to what is important to me. Beating my head against the wall DAILY and getting threats and abuse for enforcing strict rules here in order to try to make this the place I THINK it can be just is not worth the salary that memberships was pulling in. Especially if the higher level memberships are hinged on that sort of production out of me. The workload FAR exceeded the compensation I was receiving for such labor. If that is what it takes for you, then sorry you were not getting what you paid for.

I don't require anyone to have any paid membership level at all to be here. It's all optional based on what value you find in this site. The paid memberships do offer a few tangible perks, but all in all, they are donations that people are volunteering (in my opinion) in order to help insure the survival of this site. I believe I am on record as stating that as long as this site is in the black from all income able to be gleaned it, then it will remain. However, if it goes into the red where I have to again dig into my pockets from my SerpenCo funds to keep it running, then no, I am no longer willing to do that. I am no longer willing to make THAT kind of sacrifice for YOU (collectively).

So that's about the size of it. Sorry if this site, because of MY needs, has had to change into something other than what you want it to be.

Rich,
I have no desire to argue with you about the particulars and direction of this site. We have both spent way too much time in that arena already. My previous post was simply a response to your post regarding the timeline.

I fully recognize that you will do what you need to do to make all of this right with yourself, and I am fine with that.

I enjoy Fauna and the people here and I hope that the membership can find a way to continue what has been started in a manner that respects the goals on which Fauna was founded.