Business Ethics... Terms of Sales and Deposits...

Hey guys, I need some help here...

I reply to an advertisement in kingsnake.com to inqure about a Python that was beeing offered for sale.

I comunicate with this individual via e-mail and later by phone.

I explain that due to my financial situation I could buy the Python that was advertised in three $100.00 payments.

He told me that if I send a $100.00 deposit he would hold the snake for me. I send a $100.00 deposit via Paypal.com

Within a week, before my second agreed payment, my financial situation worsen. My roommate leaves me three days before bills are due...

Anyway, I contact the individual letting him know that I would be un-able to purchase the snake off him at this time.

I told him to sell the snake elsewhere. I am not in a position to purchase a $300.00 snake.

Then he tells me that since I backed out the $100.00 deposit is automaticly non-refoundable.

In this case there was NEVER an agreement of non-refoundable deposits. When we discused terms we talk about the snake live and health guarantee and the way he would ship to me.

In this situation a $100.00 deposit becomes automaticly non-refoundable??? I mean, does this guy gets to keep my $100.00 and send me nothing???

Or should he refound my money since I am not getting the snake???

Any information on this type situations would be very much apreciated...

LEWIS

Very carefully inspect any communications that you had looking for that term "Non-refundable". If he said it at any point then he is automatically correct...

If it was never expressly stated then there may be a signifigant chance that a court would uphold your request for your deposit back, provided you want to wade through the legal process...

Deposits, including Non-refundable deposits are generally used... well, essentially for the animal's maintinence over the time held. Had you drawn it out for several weeks or months and then cancelled, I'd have agreed the deposit should not be refunded, but given the time duration involved, according to the timeline provided by you, it seems that the animal may not have even been fed during the time it was being "held" and a few cents electricity is hardly justification for deposit retention...

Would you mind provideing more details about the transaction? Such as the individual's  name of course, the specific communications, a detailed timeline and any web-site associated with the individual involved.

If it was stated as non-refundable, I agree with the seller that the money should be kept. If the time-line proves substantially longer than it appears, I agree with the seller that it should be kept. If it was not expressly stated as non-refundable and the timeline agrees with what it seems you have said... I think that the deposit should be refunded.

A week is hardly enough time to consider the animal's maintenence costs worth $100 and even the duration of time involved where it was "not selling" isn't signifigant enough so that the seller could not contact any other interested buyers who had expressed an interest, explain that the deal fell through and offer them the animal...

This seems at this juncture, pretty clear cut... but you failed to provide certain information needed for a descision to be made or specific advice about how you should proceed to be offered.

Here is a non altered Copy (Copy and Paste) of my reciept from Paypal.com:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 05:25:18 -0700
From: service@paypal.com &nbsp;
To: HerpHobbiest@yahoo.com
Subject: Receipt for your Payment

This email confirms that you sent $100.00 to
fangsnthangs@wnconline.net.

------------------------------
Payment Details
------------------------------

Amount: $100.00
Transaction ID: 9EF11347VE879040M
Subject: Jeff
Note: Second try...

Here is the deposit of the first $100.00 for your female
Laberinth 100% Het Albino.

Lewis T
602 278 2336
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Here is a non altered Copy (Copy and Paste) of of him getting my money from Paypal.com:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
From: "Cindy & Jeff" <fangsnthangs@wnconline.net> To: "Lewis T" <herphobbiest@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 4FT FEMALE LABYRINTH BURM &nbsp;
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:31:11 -0400
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
I have it now.
Thanks
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

On August 27 my roommate is gone...

I called Jeff on August 28, August 29, August 31. I left a message every time.

I choose to call rather than e-mail because it is more personal.

On September 1st I e-mail Jeff... (See Original message attached to next e-mail.)

Here is a non altered Copy (Copy and Paste) of Jeff's response to my e-mail:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
From: "Cindy & Jeff" <fangsnthangs@wnconline.net> To: "Lewis T" <herphobbiest@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 4FT FEMALE LABYRINTH BURM &nbsp;
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 03:52:11 -0400
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
My phone has been broken so I have not gotten any of your
messages. Email me now and I can reply.
Thanks,
Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis T" <herphobbiest@yahoo.com>
To: "Cindy & Jeff" <fangsnthangs@wnconline.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 3:43 AM
Subject: Re: 4FT FEMALE LABYRINTH BURM


> Jeff,
>
> Have you been getting my messages???
>
> Please contact me...
>
> Lewis
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Here is a non altered Copy (Copy and Paste) of Jeff's response to my e-mail (See Original message attached to next e-mail.)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
From: "Cindy & Jeff" <fangsnthangs@wnconline.net> To: "Lewis T" <herphobbiest@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 4FT FEMALE LABYRINTH BURM &nbsp;
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 08<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>7:27 -0400
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
I am sorry to hear about your roommate do that to you. The only problem I have is I have lost sales to several people due to me holding her for you.

We had a legal binding email contract that you would buy her and I have not broken my end of the deal so it is non-refundable. I tell you what I will do though to try and help you out since this is not really all under your control. If I can sell her and get full payment this coming week I will then refund your money.

Again I am sorry about your troubles but if I refund everyone's money that can't pay me I will go out of business which I am sure you understand. I will let you know ASAP what I can do.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis T" <herphobbiest@yahoo.com>
To: "Cindy & Jeff" <fangsnthangs@wnconline.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 4:51 AM
Subject: Re: 4FT FEMALE LABYRINTH BURM


> Jeff,
>
> That is exactly what I had been wanting to talk you for the
last
> few days... I am afraid I will not be able to buy your female
> Labyrinth any more.
>
> My roommate told me three days ago that he will no longer be
> living here after the end of August. I was counting on his
share
> of payment to meet all the bills. My roommate really screw me
> over. I was short on money with him here, now, I am freaking out about how will I pay rent.
>
> Lisen, I know this is my problem. But, I just can not make
> payments as agreed with you. I am sorry, I really am.
>
> You know I was really happy that I was going to your female
> Labyrinth. I am mad because I know some one else will get her.
>
> I would appreciate if you could refound my deposit at your
> earliest convenience as I will be needing it to make my rent
> payment.
>
> Again, I am sorry... I hate to break a good deal.
>
> Sincerely, Lewis
>
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I have a total of 20 e-mails mine and Jeff's. Nowhere does it states a non-refoundable deposit except in his last response.

The said 4FT FEMALE LABYRINTH BURMESE is off his web site!!!

My concern is did I lost the money??? Or shoud he re-fund my $100.00<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

Lewis

Lewis,,,frst off,,let me ask you if you could post Jeffs entire name..The reason for this is;;;in one of your e-mails you posted;;;it says to Jeff,,and then your name ""Lewis""...The problem i have with this is;;;My first name is Jeff,,,and my last name is ""LEWIS""..I would hate for someone that doesnt read the posts thouroughly,,to mistake that you are talking about me,,""Jeff Lewis""!!I would appreciate it if you could rectify this...THank You!!! &nbsp;Now on to your <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>,,,since he MAY HAVE passed up other sales,,i dont think that the ENTIRE amount should be refunded,,,however,,due to the short time that it was on hold,,,i do think that he should refund you 50$$$((half of your payment))..Because in all honesty,,,it is not his problem that you had some unfortunate things happen,,,but it is not like the snake was on hold for a month either..So my opinion is,,,REFUND HALF THE MONEY!!! I hope you can get this problem rectified... Good luck buddy...
Jeff Lewis

I disagree. &nbsp;We all know that for every individual snake there is a limited pool of potential buyers at any one time. &nbsp;If a snake is taken off the market, potential buyers that would have actually paid for the animal would have then purchased other snakes, and this Jeff would have lost his sale by the time he found out that Lewis could not afford it.

Further, what if Lewis had actually paid the three hundred up front, and THEN had his roomate move out on him? &nbsp;Would Jeff then be required to refund his money and take back the snake because Lewis needed the cash back this month? &nbsp;I don't think so. &nbsp;I don't mean to be cruel or anything, but if you cannot afford to purchase an animal without running yourself so thin that you cannot overcome the bumps along life's road (which ALWAYS come, by the way! ), then you probably shouldn't be buying snakes right now.

The only reason this is $100 instead of $300 in question is because of Jeff trying to be a nice guy! &nbsp;This was a $100 installment of PAYMENT for a purchased animal, and it is not Jeff's fault that Lewis has decided (for whatever reason) that he could no longer afford the purchase (aka: buyer's remorse).

Finally, it seems to me that the whole point is moot when you consider that it will cost Lewis more than the $100 to get the money back if he did decide to take Jeff to court. &nbsp;In my opinion, even if Lewis were 100% right (I don't think he is), it still wouldn't be worth the effort or expense to fight about it.

It is for this very reason that I ALWAYS tell people that their deposits are non-refundable if they back out of any deal in which they are purchasing something from me. &nbsp;Sorry if this upsets you, Lewis, but I think that money should stay with Jeff. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

One might think of another scenario (that has actually happened). What if a person pays the first installment of $100 and the seller takes the animal off the market awaiting for the other two $100 installments.

Suddenly another buyer comes into play and offers the seller $450 for the snake. The sellers sells it to buyer # 2 and reimburses the $100 to buyer # 1. How would buyer # one feel then? After all didn't he made a deposit to GUARANTEE the animal was already sold?

The point being made is that deposits serve a purpose. On the buyer side the committment to pay in full the remaining amount, on the seller side to sell him the snake at the stated price. They are thus a binding agreement that can only be broken IF both parties agree to do so.

Best regards,

Daniel

Lewis,

It is a tough call I think. You paid a deposit, and nowhere was it said that the deposit was nonrefundable - but then again nowhere was it said that the deposit was refundable either. I think if push came to shove you would lose this one in a civil court as you would have to show a preponderance of evidence that the seller was in the wrong. This would be pretty tough as you were the one who asked if you could leave a deposit, which meant that he would hold the snake for you. A deposit is usually left so that if the buyer or potential buyer backs out of the deal, the seller does not loose out on the sale completely. As I see it, that is the whole point of a deposit whether it is stated as nonrefundable or not - unless it was stated as refundable in the first place in which case the whole idea of a deposit is rather pointless. (I mean why bother asking for a deposit and not just holding it without one if it is refundable anyhow?) &nbsp;

However this turns out, it is a lesson for both p[potential buyers and sellers. You need to be careful to set the terms, in writing, before any deal is made, and make them plain and understood.

Hopefully he will sell the snake and refund your money. If not maybe he will return half of it. I would consider you lucky if you got half back. Good luck, hope it works out for you, I know a C note can be a big loss when suddenly down on funds.


Best regards,

Glenn

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">nowhere was it said that the deposit was nonrefundable</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

There was another thread on this issue on the BOI.

The deposit was in fact non-refundable and it was listed as such on the sellers web-site.

However the seller saw that it may not have been clear and I believe the two worked something out.