PA people- Dept of Agriculture License

ok, i was reading about the Hamburg show requiring a Pennsylvania Dept. of Agr. License. this costs $150 for 5 yr license. i am not sure i understand the questioning on the application. one says ARE ANY OF YOUR FACILITIES A CLOSED SYSTEM? i breed crested geckos from my house. nothing else. they are in Tanks in the house.

page 2- What is your Current or Anticipated production level per year and gross sales? Pounds produced_____Gross annual SAles_____

*i don't understand this. i don't produce POUNDS of eggs. or hatchlings.

then on page 3, it has a list of Native reptiles and amphibians approved for a closed system

if anyone can better explain this application to me, i would much appreciate it. thanks. Colleen

I thought they required a "movers & sellers" license. Those questions don't look familiar, but I didn't complete my application (I haven't been there as a vendor in a couple of years). It was so PA based that, as an out-of-stater, none of my answers seemed to fit. I was also told that I probably didn't need one, if I sold only animals I produced myself...but that as an out-of stater, I could be considered a "hauler", since I was bringing livestock in for the purpose of sale.

ok, maybe i'll call them( dept of Ag.) on monday and explain my situation and they can help me answer these Questions. they don't seem to fit my situation. i only breed in my home for a hobby more than anything, i have not yet made a profit, but i hope to.

i called this morning, and they were very helpful. i think i'll probably get the darn license now that they know i'm breeding gex, but i may not go to a show right away. there is a september hamburg show, but i might wait until the following show.

Colleen, I think you are looking at the wrong license applications. I think you need the license to transport the animals. The questions you asked about, I believe, are regarding the license for propagation. The license for propagation does not apply to hobbiest.

Bart

i called them and told them whay i do and they never said i had the wrong application. what should it look like?/or Say on the top? i guess i can call them again. i want to make sure before i drop $150.

i guess i cannot edit on this forum. anyway, i am a PA resident, so i think i need this one, it is for Reptile And Amphibian Artificial Propagation Registration. i am a breeder and have a website, so technically i am a commercial propagation facility. Correct?

Unfortunately, the wording on the two different show sites is a bit different, so I can understand the confusion.

The Commonwealth Of Pennsylvania Department Of Agriculture requires all animal dealer / haulers to be licensed through them please contact the following for details.

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The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture requires all reptile and amphibian dealers and propagators (breeders) to be licensed through them.

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A quick look through the PA Dept of Agriculture site turned up these two...and neither of those refer to breeding, so there may well be a third. I would talk to the show promoter & find out specifically which application you have to fill out.

link to Dealer and Hauler license application
link to Live Reptile and Amphibian Dealer Application

Shows is PA typically require the license to transport and haul. As for the propagation license, this does not apply to hobbiest. Now what constitutes a commercial breeder/seller and a hobbiest? I can't help you there. Here is the applicable statute:

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter79/s79.8.html

Hope this helps.

Bart

I just contacted the promoter of the Northern Berks show about a table, and asked which permit is required. This was the response:

The license/permit required is a Reptile and Amphibian Dealers or Breeders license. The person to contact is Mary Bates 717 783 1868

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(It was the Northwestern Berks show promoter that had told me I needed the Dealer and Hauler license when I last did that show about 2 yrs ago...kinda funny that they not only use different wording that seems to reference two different licenses, but they direct you to two different licenses. I suppose that the Reptile and Amphibian Dealer license could be relatively new and, in fairness, I haven't contacted the promoter of the other show recently - I might be given a different answer now)

For those that don't know, both the Northern, and the Northwestern, Berks show are done in the same location. Different promoters, different websites.

Thanks to you both, i am going to call Mary tomorrow and straighten this out.

Please share what you learn. I am interested in what this "dealer" license is.

Bart

I was looking at the Reptile Dealer Application Harald provided a link to and have a couple concerns.

First, it seems to imply the applicant is a business entity. If the promoters require this, does it mean you have to declare yourself a business to sell at Hamburg? I have less than 10 animals all together and will be trying my hand at breeding for the first time next year. If I produce anything, I may want to sell some of the offspring to purchase other animals or cages. Does this mean I should declare myself a business? I certainly wouldn’t consider myself a business. I admit, I would not want to purchase a table at Hamburg to sell a few snakes, but if I have a good size clutch, I would like to know the option to sell them at a herp show is there, as a hobbiest and not a business.

Second, by registering as a Reptile Dealer, I need to provide them with the names of whom I am getting my reptiles from and what reptile species I am “dealing”. So what happens if I receive animals from someone I didn’t list or decide to acquire a new breeding project? What I found on the Dept. of Agriculture’s site also states that those registered agree to permit the inspection of their “facility” without notice and requires you to have a written contingency plan in place should one of your animals escape, specifying containment and recovery. I would understand if I was actually running a business at a business location but my animals are kept in my home and I am not really comfortable giving open ended permission for the state to inspect my residence. Its not that I have anything to hide, it just seems like I am giving up my privacy just to breed a couple snakes and have the option to sell them.

It just seems this Reptile Dealer registration is geared to more of a large scale entity, receiving their stock from specific wholesalers, much like some pet stores. It does not seem to be geared towards the hobbiest and, per PA statutes, does not apply to hobbiest. So why would the promoter require it to be a vendor? I understand they can require whatever they want but do not understand the logic behind it and have a hard time believing that all the vendors are in compliance with it.

I wish some seasoned Hamburg vendors would chime in and shed some light on all of this because it is just not making sense to me.

Bart

I don't know PA rules, but to vend in NYS one has to have a sales tax certificate. This is done by filing a DBA (doing business as) or requesting a vendor certificate for specific shows. The days of just going to a show to sell some animals without giving the State its due are long gone.
I will also be in touch with Mary, and will be asking her some questions as well.

hhmoore said:

I don't know PA rules, but to vend in NYS one has to have a sales tax certificate. This is done by filing a DBA (doing business as) or requesting a vendor certificate for specific shows. The days of just going to a show to sell some animals without giving the State its due are long gone.

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I am sure the same is true for PA and have no problem registering for a sales tax ID to sell at public shows (not sure if I need to be a "business" to do that). Opening my home to the Dept. of Agriculture and all it includes just seems a bit over the top.

Bart

I haven't vended in PA in years...but I was never required to have anything for sales tax.

And I agree on the concept of inspections. As a hobbiest, I think it is unnecessarily intrusive.

just spoke with Mary Bates. i do have the correct application. if you Breed and sell Reptiles or amphibians in PA, you need this it is called the Application For Reptile and Amphibian Artificial Propogation Registration. and it costs $150. for 5 years. if you also buy other reptiles and Re-sell them then you also need a dealers license which is NO additional fee.

To add to what Colleen has stated, I spoke with Mary this morning and had all my questions answered. The hauling permit is only required by those who own pet stores. She does not know why the show promoters are requiring it. She said she has spoken to many of the show promoters in PA, including the promoters from Hamburg, and thought she explained this to them. The propagation license is required for anyone in PA to breed and sell reptiles. Although the law states hobbiest are exempt, there is no clear definition for hobbiest so they are requiring it for anyone who breeds, no exceptions. The dealer license is required for anyone in PA who buys animals from other sources to sell, and is required for anyone from other states selling reptiles in PA (whether you bred them or not). If those in PA sell the animals they breed and animals they purchased from another source, then they need both licenses; however, they only need to pay the fee on the propagation license. The dealer license would be free in this case. Mary stated all of this is new and came about as a result of the new herp laws passed this year. She said they are still working through the kinks and would be happy to help anyone complete the applications. As far as reporting your sources of the animals and species, she said this does not need to be specific. She said she would actually prefer you did not indicated the species. Indicating pythons, geckos, etc. would be fine. When entered into their computer, they only type “Reptiles and Amphibians” anyways. She said Fish & Game go to the shows and spot check for verification of these licenses but also indicated they have had no instances of non-compliance. As far as Dept. of Agriculture inspecting our homes, she said they hold the right but do not be concerned about this. Unless an epidemic results from your animals, they just do not have the resources to do inspections.

On a different note, I highly advise PA residents read the new laws regarding herps. Most native species can no longer be removed from the wild at all. It used to be that they allowed 2 per household. Another thing I found surprising is that you can no longer receive native species from outside sources. If it is a native species, it can not be imported to PA from any source. Anyone keeping native species in accordance with the previous laws, should have applied for a permit to continue to keep those animals earlier this year. Fish & Game gave people a window of opportunity to apply for exemptions to the current changes for reptiles already in your collection. This permit is void once that specific animal dies or changes ownership. I am not sure if you can still apply for these permits

Bart

Thank you, Bart, for posting that - you saved Mary from a barrage of questions, lol. It sounds as if the new stuff superceded the old - as I said, it has been a couple of years since I was told I needed the haulers license...and I was told by the reference person (may have been Mary, I don't recall) that I technically didn't need it, since I was selling only animals I produced...though she did say that some might interpret the fact that I was bringing animals in from out of state as hauling, and if an issue was raised, I should be prepared to just break down my table and leave (the table was a last minute decision, and there wasn't time to process the application)

Things being what they are - I haven't had the opportunity to make the call yet. Did anybody happen to ask how long the process takes? I am hoping to get a table for the Sept 8 show. If not, I'll find out Mon or Tues when I have a little time.