One more week til

eggs. I'm still open to thoughts as to what combination of genetics she is showing. Albino is a given. Whitesided pretty certain. But she shows more pattern than any other mature snow that I have seen. Maybe hypo, as well? KJ? Jim? Anybody?

Snows are really much more new to the market (time wise) than many people realize. They have only become common in the last few years. With that said, I strongly believe we have only seeing the TIP of the ice berg in how variable these guys can look. Matter of fact, it was only a few years ago that I was still being called a liar about snows that retained red coloration. I think enough pictures have been posted since then so that people have been forced to believe me....lol.

Anyway, MOST snows were originally created with the "Trumbower" line white-sided mutation (WS). That line had very little color or pattern - and it was limited to the dorsal surface only. These were awesome examples of WS, and they were so pale (and large) because they had been extensively crossed to wild, south Texas, bullsnakes. The Bell line (same mutation) seemed to have been bred the other direction. They must have been bred to darker, more northern, bullsnakes. Actually, they were probably bred into whatever bull was available....lol.

The Bell line of WS bulls are the ones where the pattern is real "muddy" looking and extends down on the lateral scales. These also have MORE pigmentation remaining over the snake's body.

In my opinion, these are NOT very good looking WS bullsnakes. It's the opposite direction from where, I believe, selective breeding with this mutation should have headed. With that said, they make a VERY unique looking snow (I really like it!).....which is what you seem to have above. It's a heavily patterned snow because it PROBABLY was created using a "bell" line WS bull and not the "Trumbower" line WS bull.

As far as the hybino thing goes, I've hatched out hybino speckleds, hybino snows, and I've had more than one supposed hybino albino (adult to baby) in my hands. NOT ONE has ever looked different from a regular snow, albino speckled, or albino. I can vouch for the genetics of the ones I produced, but I can't vouch for the genetics of the albinos I've seen. For reasons I won't go into here, I would have been surprised if they were all true hybinos.

Take care and good luck on the eggs. I'm a little later than you on Pituophis, but my first group of Elaphe eggs might be outside in the snake room as I post this message.
KJ

Thanks for the info.
Below are pics of the male she was paired with this year, and my other pair of adult WS.
From your description, I would guess that the first male is a "Trumbower" line (or at least strongly influenced by it), and the other two are Bell?

Well, the Bell and Trumbower line is more of a pattern variant phase than a real line. I use the common terms, but I guess it isn't really that accurate. Oh, well. The reason I bring that up is because both lines have been outcrossed to OTHER bulls ...and mixed together. The Bells are slowly getting better (selective breeding) and the Trumbowers are getting worse (since they are getting outcrossed to other lines of bulls).

All of those are more of a Bell-like animal than a trumbower line. A good Trumbower would only have the top 4 scale rows, for example, showing any pattern at all. The top image, IMO, is a good looking Bell. It has way too much pattern to be a "true - whatever that means - "Trumbower" phase. 10-15 years ago, I had seed "Trumbowers" with pigmentation ONLY along the single scale row on each side of the spine! Those were too rare to ever acquire, but the ones with only 4-5 scale rows were available to anyone that searched them out.

I actually do NOT work with WS bulls any more because I can't find GOOD Trumbower bulls for sale. Thankfully, I have received some images of some for the book, but I couldn't talk the people out off the animals......lol. I guess I'll just have to be happy with my snows from that line even though they aren't as nice as the original Trumboer WS animals.......lol.

Anyway, those are all what are called "bell" phase/line WS bulls.
KJ

.. i want some of those ones too.... *whines*

Horrible... im going to be be "that old snake lady" y'know... sort of like the ones with hundreds of cats, and smells like pee, but, i wont smell like pee... at least, not willingly.

ready to pop

This poor girl should lay her eggs within the couple days...hopefully I'll get some good pics of deposition. (but, she'll probably choose to start when I leave for that darned conference, lol)

hmmmm, I had a female bull 2 years ago and sold her. We may have to do some trading this season H.

That is a gorgeous girl, I hope you get what you want out of her.

Laura Fopiano said:

hmmmm, I had a female bull 2 years ago and sold her. We may have to do some trading this season H.

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I should have a few nice clutches of baby bulls this year...I'm sure I can find something nice here for you, Laura

You still have the one you got from me Harald? It should be old enough to breed.

I've still got her, but she isn't big enough to breed yet.

Any eggs yet?

Those are some beautiful bulls.

SPJ said:

Any eggs yet?

Those are some beautiful bulls.

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you know you waaaant some!

No bulls here.

SPJ said:

No bulls here.

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lol


yet..... yet...