The dirty little secrets of morphs

It seems as time goes on more and more "little secrets" have started to come out reguarding genetic tweeks or imperfections in certain morphs, the best known example being the Neuro problems in the Spider Morph, or the Kinking in Carmels, Bug Eyes of Super Lessers, ect..ect.

Another example is the issue with the facial demformaties in the Super Cinnamons and Super Black Pastels, the condition known as "Duckbilling", I have also heard but never seen of kinking in them as well.

I was curious if anyone has ever experienced any Nuero problems with other morphs? Are Spiders the only ones that exhibit this nuero problem? I ask because I have never heard anyone mention or talk about neuro problems in any other morph....We recently hatched out a clutch of Cinnamons, the clutch was text book perfect, incubation was perfect, morph ratio was perfect, out of 6 eggs, we got 3 Cinnamons and 3 Normals. Everything has been perfect....they are now almost 4 weeks old, have had thier first shed, 4 out of the 6 have eaten once, all 3 Normals and 1 Cinnamon have eaten.

Here in the last few days we noticed the 1 Cinnamon who has eaten was very active, almost like he was hungry again, but watching him, he seems to show nuerological signs, INDENTICAL to what we have seen in Spiders. None of the others in the clutch do anything odd, they are perfect. We fed the Nuero Cinnamon again, and he ate....so now...this one Cinnamon is the only one to have eaten 2 times so far...in the 4 weeks they have been alive. I remember Spider Keepers and Breeders saying thier spiders where vigorous feeders from birth, and seem to be eager growers and breeders, which eerily seems all to simular to this one Cinnamon. The Father that sired the clutch was a Perfect Cinnamon, absolutley NOTHING wrong with him, the female was a normal, proven breeder....nothing is different with this one Cinnamon, temps, enclosure, everything is the same as all the others.

I know in the begining people who worked with the Spider Ball Pythons knew about this Neuro issue but many didn't talk about it openly, And many times you have to be careful who you get your info from, and who to believe, as many times $$$ is involved....I would like to know if others who have worked with Cinnamons have ever expereinced any type of Nuero problems with thier Cinnamons?

People can feel free to e-mail me instead of posting a reply on a public forum, I know this subject is sort of Taboo, but I think its an important topic, that should be talked about. People should know whats going on with these morphs, it just makes Ball Python people look greedy by not talking about it, true herpetoculturists would openly discuss the downsides or problems or failures, I hate to see these secrets go not talked about in hopes to keep thier values high for as long as possible.

I had never heard of any issues with Cinnamons, other than the Supers having facial deformaties, which at the time of my purchases I was lead to believe the deformaties where from breeding sibxsib, and by outcrossing the issue would go away, but I see people are now doing CinnamonxBlack Pastel Supers and they still have facial deformaties.....so...I guess sometimes you have to learn the hard way...I just feel if more breeders where more open and honest about issues, it would make for a better hobby....rather than have people down the road...find out for themselves...you know...

Anyone expereince Nuero (Spider Like) problems with any other morphs?

I have a severe "spinning" spider ball female. She's my expensive lesson in who not to trust in buying a 100% healthy snake.
I have a non-spinning spider male. I have 1.1 cinnamons, with not a trace of any spinning in any other snake, other than the spider female.

Are you certain that it's not just that it's a baby who isn't quite stable yet getting overexcited? I have heard of other balls(other than spider, including normals) that could "spin".

Wolfy-hound said:

Are you certain that it's not just that it's a baby who isn't quite stable yet getting overexcited? I have heard of other balls(other than spider, including normals) that could "spin".

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Thanks for the reply, at first I was really hoping that was the case, that it was just a hatchling and needed to build its muscles up. but from what I have seen and heard of what spiders do, this fits EXACTLY what spiders do.

Everything was textbook, the incubation, the temps, humidity, the works, all the normals in the clutch are perfect....the normals have eaten once, and when I saw the Cinnamon cruising, I figured he was hungry again, so I fed him and he ate...no problem, f/t right off tongs. But it didn't stop him from doing the wobbling....he is one of the best feeders of the clutch....

Like I said, other than the supers having facial deformaties, I have never heard of Cinnamons (Or any other morph for that matter) having Nuero problems. I know not many people want to talk about these things, but I feel its important, like I said, it might just be a fluke thing...and I just have a screwed up Cinnamon...but after seeing the whole Spider Wobble thing go on for so long without it being talked about openly....I figured I would put out there my expereince....and see if others have noticed or expereinced anything simular.....

I took some video of it doing its loop d' Loops...its really sad to see....and one of the MAIN reasons we chose not to work with Spiders..I will try and get it uploaded tonight....We are expecting at least one more possibly two more clutches of Cinnamons this season, and I will be monitoring these clutches very closely...and if there are more that have this wobble...then I will be convinced that its like the Spiders...and "attached to the morph"....

Curious if anyone has expereinced anything odd about their morphs? For example picky feeders, hard time shedding, ect.ect..

I might be a little looney, but I just find it really wierd that a perfect clutch of eggs that hatched out 3 normals and 3 Cinnamons, that the normals are just that...TOTALLY NORMAL, but the 3 Cinnamons are just a bit different, 2 have not eaten, and the one that has eaten 2 times has nuero problems, I did get one other Cinnamon to strike and coil and kill its prey, but then didn't eat it, this has happened twice now, so out of the three Cinnamons, 1 has down right refused food, one has killed its prey twice but not eaten, and one has eaten twice but has nuero problems, all the mean while the three normals are perfect as can be, in every way.....so it makes one wonder, is there something messed up with Cinnamons?

I have mixed feelings about producing more, I know there have been a crap ton of them produced, and I was hoping people who have worked with Cinnamons would chime in and say weither or not they have every expereinced anything odd with them, anything...Neuro issues? Problem feeding? anything.....I know there are lots of people working with them, has anyone see anything at least a little bit odd with them?

We quite possibly have 1-2 more clutches of Cinnamons comming, but I am not sure if I want to produce anymore, part of me wants to see if we hatch out more neuro or odd Cinnamons, and part of me doesn't want to hatch out anymore in fear there will be....I don't want to produce a morph that has problems.

Anyone working with Cinnamons? Anyone expereince anything strange or odd with them?

You can also e-mail me at [email protected]

The only difference I've noticed with my 1.1 is that they're crappy shedders and bite me more often.

I think this is a good topic of discussion and should be discussed openly rather then keeping private and out of the view of others in the hobby that may be interested in working with any of the above genes in the future.

Wolfy-hound said:

I have a severe "spinning" spider ball female. She's my expensive lesson in who not to trust in buying a 100% healthy snake.
I have a non-spinning spider male. I have 1.1 cinnamons, with not a trace of any spinning in any other snake, other than the spider female.

Are you certain that it's not just that it's a baby who isn't quite stable yet getting overexcited? I have heard of other balls(other than spider, including normals) that could "spin".

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You can get a "spinning" spider or even bee that will still eat and breed just as fine as a non "spinning" animal...

What I think is just plain wrong is how breeders have tried to tell people that the "spinning" or "bobble heads" in spiders is like a personality...

If working with spiders it's only a matter of time that you will hatchout or come across a spider or bee or any spider combo that spins. It's just a fact of life. The same with caramels.... It's only a matter of time before you produce enough of them in which you get a kink'd animal... I've even heard of non spinning spiders later on down the road developing a spin or bobble...


A good friend of mine once told me if you haven't produced a spinning spider or a kink'd caramel you either haven't produced enough of them or haven't been breeding them for long enough. Whether you outcross or even buy "non spinning or Kink'd" animals it's only a matter of time before you produce one.


Will it stop us from working with spiders or aquiring a caramel?? Not at all...
But we will be sure to make it known upfront to customers when it comes time that we're producing and selling them.

As for cinny's or black pastels... we will be pairing our black pastel het pied male to as many females as possible this season and we'll check back with you later on when we start hatching some out to let you know if we notice anything out of the ordinary.

DJSlurp1200 said:

I think this is a good topic of discussion and should be discussed openly rather then keeping private and out of the view of others in the hobby that may be interested in working with any of the above genes in the future.

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I agree 100%, I was first really hesitant on even posting about it, I was going to just chaulk it up as a fluke (which it still might be), but felt that just incase I wasn't the only one it might help others who have maybe noticed something odd about Cinnamons feel like they can mention it.

The market is the least of my worries, I am a Herpetoculturist becuase I full on love reptiles, I don't want to start a panic, or say all Cinnamons are a problem, I am just giving my experience here, and what I have noticed, that in a Clutch of 6 hatchlings the only three that either havn't eaten or are odd are the three Cinnamons...and thats about all I can say....

I contacted a few people who are well respected in Herpetoculture, and they hadn't heard of anyone having neuro issues with Cinnamons....and I hadn't heard anything of the sort either....which is why after seeing this clutch, I was so shocked to see it.

I am going to really try and figure this video clip thing out, and would love to show you all what I am talking about...just think of a bad Spider Wobble...but with a Cinnamon.

I will have the video up and available this evening hopefully....

Well, here is a crappy clip of what I am talking about....but you get the idea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i8Nvm5C4Gk

ExecutiveReptiles said:

Well, here is a crappy clip of what I am talking about....but you get the idea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i8Nvm5C4Gk

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Wow, just saw the vid...now thats a spinner cinny! I also have a spider that wobbles and sometimes misses when striking his food (head slams into the tub)

Playballp said:

Wow, just saw the vid...now thats a spinner cinny! I also have a spider that wobbles and sometimes misses when striking his food (head slams into the tub)

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Sorry for the crappy vid, for some reason I had like 2 minutes of spliced clips of it doing that spider like rolling, and when I uploaded it, it was only one clip and for some reason it was sped up...

But even with the sped up once video clip, you can see his movement is not normal. They are almost 4 weeks old, and the one in the video has shed once and eaten twice, other than the rolling Nuero problem its healthy....I took it out last night to see if it would do it while I was holding it, and sure enough it was.

I am at a total loss as to why, what, how??? for the life of me I can't figure out if we did something to cause this, or if it just happens sometimes....We are pretty bummed out. I mean no disrespect, but I just don't know how you guys with spiders that have bad neuro problems can watch it. Its gut wrenching to watch....I personally don't think its cool....

It seems nobody working with Cinnamons has ever expereinced anything like this, so I am guessing its this is just a fluke thing, we are expecting at least one possibly two more clutches of Cinnamons, so I will keep everyone posted if we encounter any more Neuro Cinnamons. We are not pairing the same female with our male Cinnamon again, we do have two other normal females that should go this season, so we will see.

Thanks everyone for thier responses...

ExecutiveReptiles said:

I mean no disrespect, but I just don't know how you guys with spiders that have bad neuro problems can watch it. Its gut wrenching to watch....I personally don't think its cool....

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Mine wasn't as bad as it is now. When I got him (4-5 months ago...I think) I could barely noticed it, but lately it has developed some more. From a scale of 1-10 i would say a 4. To tell you the truth, its a pain in the butt when it comes to feeding, but I still like him

Is it possible that your breeding stock (one or the other or both) are from spider clutches?

My thoughts are that someone possibly had a "spinner" and in an attempt to create a clutch of non-spinners may have outcrossed with a Cinnamon.

This is just one possibility that could explain why you have a spinning Cinnamon.

I've hatched about 15 Cinnies and have never noticed anything at all wrong with them. I have 4 yearlings that are perfectly healthy, amazing snakes.

I can't think that wobbling is a recessive gene--considering how few spiders are ever bred to other spiders, I just can't see how that's possible.

I have a wobble spider--it's a minor wobble--he has a very slight head tilt, and misses his food, and his movements are a bit unstead--he doesn't spin, and he does right himself when flipped, with only the slightest bit more delay than a normal snake.

Yes, we are breeding him--if all of his offspring have wobbles, we may pick up a non-wobble male to use instead, and see how that goes. If most of his offspring are wobble-free, we'll keep using him. (I've no problems mentioning the wobble to anyone who asks about it--at this point, I do believe it's tied to the spider gene itself, and is usually not harmful). I also think it's more likely to be an inner ear problem than a neurological problem. Try taking your cinnie to a vet, and have him checked for an inner ear abcess! You never know.
Also, look up information on waltzing mice--they may have the same issue.

As for cinnamons, it strikes me as odd that the duck-bill would be labeled a deformity. It's different, sure--but is it causing actual harm? Does it interfere with the snake's normal behavior or senses in any way? My cinnamon (no sign of a wobble, btw), has an oddly shaped face. All the cinnamons I have seen have an oddly shaped face. It's quite noticeable when compared with normal ball pythons. Unlike kinking or wobbles, I don't see any detriments to it, though.

Observations on various morphs--I have albinos and albino hets that are picky eaters, but others don't report this.
I have a Lesser that is as big of a pig as my spider. I have some baby pastels shaping up the same way.
I have a mojave who is slightly picky.
The yellowbelly and cinnamon eat just fine.
The orange ghosts are pretty darned normal.
None of the snakes mentioned above have kinks, neurological signs, wobbles (except for the spider), or bad temperments. The cinnie has the typical cinnie snout--a sort of slender, petite look that I think is kind of cute. I think it makes this morph more beautiful, even if it does go 'duckie' when you double it.

My albinos seem to have bad vision and are very sloppy at striking and constricting their prey, which is a pain because they absolutely refuse to eat f/t or even dead. I have to feed them thumped rats, so they don't get bitten. The het albino has no such issue, nor did the male het before we sold him.

WingedWolf said:

I can't think that wobbling is a recessive gene--considering how few spiders are ever bred to other spiders, I just can't see how that's possible.

I have a wobble spider--it's a minor wobble--he has a very slight head tilt, and misses his food, and his movements are a bit unstead--he doesn't spin, and he does right himself when flipped, with only the slightest bit more delay than a normal snake.

Yes, we are breeding him--if all of his offspring have wobbles, we may pick up a non-wobble male to use instead, and see how that goes. If most of his offspring are wobble-free, we'll keep using him. (I've no problems mentioning the wobble to anyone who asks about it--at this point, I do believe it's tied to the spider gene itself, and is usually not harmful). I also think it's more likely to be an inner ear problem than a neurological problem. Try taking your cinnie to a vet, and have him checked for an inner ear abcess! You never know.
Also, look up information on waltzing mice--they may have the same issue.

As for cinnamons, it strikes me as odd that the duck-bill would be labeled a deformity. It's different, sure--but is it causing actual harm? Does it interfere with the snake's normal behavior or senses in any way? My cinnamon (no sign of a wobble, btw), has an oddly shaped face. All the cinnamons I have seen have an oddly shaped face. It's quite noticeable when compared with normal ball pythons. Unlike kinking or wobbles, I don't see any detriments to it, though.

Observations on various morphs--I have albinos and albino hets that are picky eaters, but others don't report this.
I have a Lesser that is as big of a pig as my spider. I have some baby pastels shaping up the same way.
I have a mojave who is slightly picky.
The yellowbelly and cinnamon eat just fine.
The orange ghosts are pretty darned normal.
None of the snakes mentioned above have kinks, neurological signs, wobbles (except for the spider), or bad temperments. The cinnie has the typical cinnie snout--a sort of slender, petite look that I think is kind of cute. I think it makes this morph more beautiful, even if it does go 'duckie' when you double it.

My albinos seem to have bad vision and are very sloppy at striking and constricting their prey, which is a pain because they absolutely refuse to eat f/t or even dead. I have to feed them thumped rats, so they don't get bitten. The het albino has no such issue, nor did the male het before we sold him.

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HUSH child!

WingedWolf said:

I can't think that wobbling is a recessive gene--considering how few spiders are ever bred to other spiders, I just can't see how that's possible.

I have a wobble spider--it's a minor wobble--he has a very slight head tilt, and misses his food, and his movements are a bit unstead--he doesn't spin, and he does right himself when flipped, with only the slightest bit more delay than a normal snake.

Yes, we are breeding him--if all of his offspring have wobbles, we may pick up a non-wobble male to use instead, and see how that goes. If most of his offspring are wobble-free, we'll keep using him. (I've no problems mentioning the wobble to anyone who asks about it--at this point, I do believe it's tied to the spider gene itself, and is usually not harmful). I also think it's more likely to be an inner ear problem than a neurological problem. Try taking your cinnie to a vet, and have him checked for an inner ear abcess! You never know.
Also, look up information on waltzing mice--they may have the same issue.

As for cinnamons, it strikes me as odd that the duck-bill would be labeled a deformity. It's different, sure--but is it causing actual harm? Does it interfere with the snake's normal behavior or senses in any way? My cinnamon (no sign of a wobble, btw), has an oddly shaped face. All the cinnamons I have seen have an oddly shaped face. It's quite noticeable when compared with normal ball pythons. Unlike kinking or wobbles, I don't see any detriments to it, though.

The cinnie has the typical cinnie snout--a sort of slender, petite look that I think is kind of cute. I think it makes this morph more beautiful, even if it does go 'duckie' when you double it.

My albinos seem to have bad vision and are very sloppy at striking and constricting their prey, which is a pain because they absolutely refuse to eat f/t or even dead. I have to feed them thumped rats, so they don't get bitten. The het albino has no such issue, nor did the male het before we sold him.

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This thread is interesting to me, both as a scientist, and as someone that loves herps.

As someone that conducted research in neuroscience, including the visual system, ANY albino will have bad vision compared to a normally pigmented individual, whether it's a snake, a mouse or human or any other animal on earth. So that's not a surprise. After all, albinos are genetically "inferior" compared to their normally pigmented kin, regardless of species.

Second, the notion that just because a difference in an animals appearance doesn't pose a problem to the snake and thus it's OK is not exactly sound. Sure that may just be the case, however what you don't know are what are the genes involved in causing this mutation. Some problems arise because of a single mutation in the genetic code, other problems are masked, and still others by themselves don't cause a problem, when combined with other mutations can cause lethal abnormalities. This is the case in humans..I cannot remember the exact malady, but in a given population of cells, 1 mutation doesn't cause a problem per se, but when two other mutations are included, the cells cease to function.

Lastly, an inner problem if that's the case, is most likely a neurological issue as it is the hair cells that are responsible for relaying information to the brain. These hair cells are in fact neurons. There could be other reasons that are non neurological, but those chances are probably slim.

So, to simply observe an animal and assume nothing wrong other then a deformed head, is an incorrect observation.

WingedWolf said:

As for cinnamons, it strikes me as odd that the duck-bill would be labeled a deformity. It's different, sure--but is it causing actual harm? Does it interfere with the snake's normal behavior or senses in any way? My cinnamon (no sign of a wobble, btw), has an oddly shaped face. All the cinnamons I have seen have an oddly shaped face. It's quite noticeable when compared with normal ball pythons. Unlike kinking or wobbles, I don't see any detriments to it, though.

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See others would disagree with kinking or wobbling as being deformaties either....Many just think the wobbling in Spiders is just a cute little quirk about them...not a deformaty....and Spinal Kinking in Carmels....well I have seen many adult Carmels that have lived what most would consider normal captive lives...they are healthy adults and probably could or do breed...

But where do you draw the line? what is acceptable and not acceptable? I guess that is up to the person working with them....For me...seeing how the Spider issue was kept a secret for so long, and anyone who worked with them didn't want to say anything about it in fear it would crash the interest/market on them....That is why I brought my problem hatchling up, I think its better to bring things like this up, and talk about them. I could have just told myself it was a fluke...and not said anything, but I thought I would just incase someone else had produced Cinnamons that exhibited spider like neuro problems....then maybe if it was something with Cinnamons that nobody knew about before...it would be brought to light...

I have said it before...I personally have a problem with working with what I consider problem morphs...weither its Bug Eyes, Facial Deformaties, Neuro problems, Kinking...ect..ect...thats why I havn't gotten into Carmels or Spiders, ect..ect.....I almost bought a Spider way back in the day, and a good friend of mine who breeds snakes for a living told me to avoid them becuase of the neuro wobbling...BUT...not one of the people that I talked to who worked with Spiders and had them for sale mentioned anything about it? I started this thread because I was trying to be open and honest about what I was expereincing....I didn't want to come across as someone who was saying there is something wrong with Cinnamons...I was just presenting what I had expereinced and wanted to check with others who worked with them to see if they had expereinced anything simular...thats all...and it seems nobody has...so the conclusion seems to be that my Cinnamon is just a fluke. Which is a good thing really...I really like the Cinnamon Morph...now the next hard choice I have to make is do I breed a Cinnamon to a Black Pastel? If I have a personal problem with the supers having a Duck Billed snout?

To each his own....whats ok for you, might not be ok for me...but thats ok...its all good. I just want to be honest and open about stuff I breed...and by the way, I still have the little female Cinnamon...she has shed 3 times now, and eats anything, anywhere, anytime...she has double in size....and seems to be doing great...BUT...she still acts just like a bad spider ball the wobbling loopd'looping has not gotten better or worse......

I hatched out my first clutch of Black Pastels this year... not one wobble. BUT I had my 1st "freezer pet" as Kevin @ NERD calls 'em. It was from the egg that the mom had pushed away from the rest... and what was in there although alive in the egg, would not survive out side of it- it was under developed & deformed. What impresses me is Mom-snake knew the egg wasn't right.

As for the other hatchlings, 9 total, 4 Black Pastels & 5 normals. 3 of the Black Pastels are ringers. Some of the normals have the sire's funky pattern even though they are normals. Only one normal & one Black Pastel were slow to start feeding, but they've since come around... it's the normal that was the hardest to get going BTW.

Now in the wild I wonder how many out of a clutch survive? Do I think that things can go wrong in the egg that may just be beyond our control? You bet.

But the OP here asked if anyone has seen a wobbler that wasn't a Spider... and I want to tell you about this snake I'm caring for right now.

She was sold to this guy here as a het for Pied... she was born with one eye & arrived to him nearly dead. I agreed to help get her healthy & his daughter wishes to keep her for a pet... they named her Alli & she is a fighter. After a bit over a month of assist feeding, she has finally constricted the last two fuzzy rats before eating them.

When she lifts her head, she wobbles a bit, first I thought it was from being so weak, but she still does it now that she's stronger so... the only wobbler I know. BTW- I have a Spider who has never wobbled.

ExecutiveReptiles said:

See others would disagree with kinking or wobbling as being deformaties either....Many just think the wobbling in Spiders is just a cute little quirk about them...not a deformaty....and Spinal Kinking in Carmels....well I have seen many adult Carmels that have lived what most would consider normal captive lives...they are healthy adults and probably could or do breed...

But where do you draw the line? what is acceptable and not acceptable? I guess that is up to the person working with them....For me...seeing how the Spider issue was kept a secret for so long, and anyone who worked with them didn't want to say anything about it in fear it would crash the interest/market on them....That is why I brought my problem hatchling up, I think its better to bring things like this up, and talk about them. I could have just told myself it was a fluke...and not said anything, but I thought I would just incase someone else had produced Cinnamons that exhibited spider like neuro problems....then maybe if it was something with Cinnamons that nobody knew about before...it would be brought to light...

I have said it before...I personally have a problem with working with what I consider problem morphs...weither its Bug Eyes, Facial Deformaties, Neuro problems, Kinking...ect..ect...thats why I havn't gotten into Carmels or Spiders, ect..ect.....I almost bought a Spider way back in the day, and a good friend of mine who breeds snakes for a living told me to avoid them becuase of the neuro wobbling...BUT...not one of the people that I talked to who worked with Spiders and had them for sale mentioned anything about it? I started this thread because I was trying to be open and honest about what I was expereincing....I didn't want to come across as someone who was saying there is something wrong with Cinnamons...I was just presenting what I had expereinced and wanted to check with others who worked with them to see if they had expereinced anything simular...thats all...and it seems nobody has...so the conclusion seems to be that my Cinnamon is just a fluke. Which is a good thing really...I really like the Cinnamon Morph...now the next hard choice I have to make is do I breed a Cinnamon to a Black Pastel? If I have a personal problem with the supers having a Duck Billed snout?

To each his own....whats ok for you, might not be ok for me...but thats ok...its all good. I just want to be honest and open about stuff I breed...and by the way, I still have the little female Cinnamon...she has shed 3 times now, and eats anything, anywhere, anytime...she has double in size....and seems to be doing great...BUT...she still acts just like a bad spider ball the wobbling loopd'looping has not gotten better or worse......

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The Greeks of Sparta used to inspect their babies for deformities as did the Inuit indians... those found lacking were cast away. This was their solution to selective breeding for their peoples.

We as breeders, have an interesting road ahead of us... we have to decide where the line is drawn with what we produce. I believe if something is produced that has the slightest defect... you do not breed it- period. This is more important now than ever because we have a much higher survival rate than nature & if we truly wish to improve the species then we breed only the best.

Still, I feel there is room for those snakes who, while not fit for breeding can live a full life... those are your pet-quality animals. Thoughts?

NorthernRegius.com said:

We as breeders, have an interesting road ahead of us... we have to decide where the line is drawn with what we produce. I believe if something is produced that has the slightest defect... you do not breed it- period. This is more important now than ever because we have a much higher survival rate than nature & if we truly wish to improve the species then we breed only the best.

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While I totally agree with the part of your reply that I put in BOLD, the problem is not everyone is going to agree that there is a problem. For example, in my case...ever since I saw my first "Black Ball" I have wanted to make one myself, I had seen and heard of pairings where the supers (Patternless Blacks) had facial deformaties that many people call "Duckbilling" I was originaly told that it was caused from breeding sibxsib of one "Type" either CinnamonxCinnamon or BlackxBlack....and I was told if I bred a CinnamonxBlack it probably would "Correct" the duckbilling....but I now see that it hasn't worked out that way...even the CinnamonxBlacks have it. Now I contacted a VERY well known breeder who sent me pics of thier Supers...and made it clear that to them they didn't see a problem...They either didn't see the duckbilling or they didn't see it as a problem...I was shocked To me its VERY noticable...and I wouldn't want to breed for that...if there was not fix...

I don't have a problem with genetic issues if there is a way to correct it, many morphs sometimes come with issues untill they are outcrossed or bred to something to correct the problem...I don't have a problem with that...its when the problem is tied to the morph, and there is no way to correct it...thats where I draw the line.

Getting people to agree on what is ok and whats not is never going to happen, especially when high dollar morphs are involved....Many people will argue that we are not releasing these snakes back into the wild...so what does it matter...it all comes down to individual preference...While some might be even more extreme and not even breed Albinos as they are inferior to normals genetics wise...My personal standard to live by is I want morphs that look physically (Body wise) like a normal ball python, I want them to act like a normal Ball Python, the only thing I want to change is thier "Paint Jobs" if that makes any scense....To me Super Cinnamons or Super Black Pastels heads/faces look VERY different and deformed to me compaired to a normal ball python...Spiders...often times don't act like normal ball pythons....Carmels...it seems that the kinking thing as not really worked itself out...and now all of a sudden we have "New Kinkless Lines" of carmels popping up...???

It seems the dark side of the hobby is not talked about very much...its not an open thing...Its like a Taboo Topic...While I fully understand nobody wants to talk about Ball Pythons in a negative light...but I think the more people discuss thier failures or issues with certain morphs the better things will be....I know not everyone is going expereince problems or issues...but some people might...Some people might not care...some people might...

Just curious....You mentioned you had a spider that did not exhibit neuro problems/spinning/wobbling but giving that the knowledge is out there now that even though your spider might not exhibit it now...that it might exhibit it later or produce offspring that do...are you planning on breeding it?