Inquiry Jordan Russell of California Breeders Union

I'm planning on buying a few turtles from Jordan and have never herd of the guy before. Has anyone herd of him or the organization?

Mark

Jordan is a great guy. I have bought from and traded with him multiple times and every transaction has been flawless. I have always received top notch animals, and he has always responded quickly when I have had a question for him. I'm sure I will be doing more business with him in the future.

Hello,
Jordan is a good guy as far as I know.
I have dealt with him in the past with no problems.
His girlfriend will also give you hickies when Jordans back is turned... just kidding!
Hes OK in my book!!!
Chris Estep Owner: Toucan Jungle

I have a few friends that have been more than happy with the quality and health of the retics purchased from him.

oops! forgot my name. Jim MacDonald

Have had many dealings with Jordan with no problems. All animals have been as advertised and in great condition. Jack Dyer

Jordan Russell

I have had to opportunity to do quite a few high dollar deals with Jordan. Both buying and selling. I have always received top quality animals, on time shipments, and prompt customer service. You would be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable reptile guy with more business cense than Jordan. Plus he is a real nice guy. You won't go wrong buying from Jordan.

Chase Delles
Chase~N~Reptiles
www.chasenreptiles.com

Name: Mark Berry

name is Mark Berry

We had the opportunity of purchasing a B. c. longicauda from Jordan, not only was the interaction with him excellent and the animal perfect but his packaging for cold temperatures should be the new standard for shipping reptiles.

Jordan

Indeed, Jordan does know how to pack. I'm at 8000 feet and he can get snakes here toasty warm and in perfect health. He's one of the few people I fully trust to ship directly to me.
That being said, I believe Jordan and I are on our 5th transaction now. I've had a couple 5 figure deals with him and every one has been excellent.

Honestly, I would avoid any animal transactions with him like the plague. Not only do his animals come from very questionable means, but his knowledge of those animals are severely lacking. I do not wish to get into specifics in such a public format, but would be more than willing to divulge details of my experiences in a more private setting. If you are curious as to my credentials, I hold four degrees, including a higher level one in veterinary medicine. I study genetics ,infectious disease, and behaviorism for a major institution. You can e-mail me at [email protected].

Heather you post is against BOI TOS you cant just come here with an accusation and no proof post what you know or don't post at all.

I have significant proof, and would be more than happy to share it with anyone wishing to gain more insight into particular business practices. For that reason, I left my personal e-mail address in the post. I just did not feel as though it were appropriate nor respectful to go into a rather public rant about it. The information is available to assist anyone who this situation may pertain to. The rest of the community need not be bogged down with it.

Harshly knocking him publicly, and then insisting you're too much of a class act to back up your words here so he could refute them or respond at all, is 'questionable' and not 'appropriate nor respectful' in my book.

Abish said:

Harshly knocking him publicly, and then insisting you're too much of a class act to back up your words here so he could refute them or respond at all, is 'questionable' and not 'appropriate nor respectful' in my book.

Click to expand...

More well put than mine but the same point lol

I personally would like to know more about this individual as well, but do not wish to engage in private email banter, nor just one opinion.

If Ms. Blackall's proof is indeed significant then it would be for the greater good (and not just good for me or anyone else who may choose to email her) to provide said proof to BOI readers.

holy cow... I was just saying yesterday (after my phone call with Heather) that there are some serious loons floating around this world.

I have no clue where this lady comes off.

1.) Heather emailed me: here's our email dialogue:

[email protected] to me
show details Feb 1 (1 day ago)


*************
NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com Classifieds. If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive please forward it to [email protected].
NOTE: DO NOT flag this message as SPAM/JUNK as your ability to receive legitimate messages from Kingsnake.com Classifieds may be compromised
*************

I have been looking for some caiman lizards. I absolutely fell in love with this species a while back, but have been after some true captive, babies. How long are yours? Do you know the sex yet? How do they do with handling?

Thanks

----------------------------------------------
Click on (or cut and paste into you browser's
location window) the URL below to view the ad that
this message is in response to.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?de=752083&cat=34


----------------------------------------------Jordan Russell to heatherblackall
show details Feb 1 (1 day ago)


Heather,

They are 12-15" in length. They are no sexable, sorry. They are very calm and very easy to handle.

Take care,
Jordan


- Show quoted text -
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:02 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:

*************
NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com Classifieds. If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive please forward it to [email protected].
NOTE: DO NOT flag this message as SPAM/JUNK as your ability to receive legitimate messages from Kingsnake.com Classifieds may be compromised
*************

I have been looking for some caiman lizards. I absolutely fell in love with this species a while back, but have been after some true captive, babies. How long are yours? Do you know the sex yet? How do they do with handling?

Thanks

----------------------------------------------
Click on (or cut and paste into you browser's
location window) the URL below to view the ad that
this message is in response to.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?de=752083&cat=34


----------------------------------------------
This message was sent by an unregistered or non logged in user.
This person may or may not be who they say they are.
The return address they provide may or may not be their correct address.

Sent 10:02 AM, Feb 01st, 2010 from I.P. Address 98.211.38.111/c-98-211-38-111.hsd1.tn.comcast.net

Jordan Russell to heatherblackall
show details Feb 1 (1 day ago)


Heather,

They are 12-15" in length. They are no sexable, sorry. They are very calm and very easy to handle.

Take care,
Jordan


- Show quoted text -
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:02 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:

*************
NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com Classifieds. If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive please forward it to [email protected].
NOTE: DO NOT flag this message as SPAM/JUNK as your ability to receive legitimate messages from Kingsnake.com Classifieds may be compromised
*************

I have been looking for some caiman lizards. I absolutely fell in love with this species a while back, but have been after some true captive, babies. How long are yours? Do you know the sex yet? How do they do with handling?

Thanks

----------------------------------------------
Click on (or cut and paste into you browser's
location window) the URL below to view the ad that
this message is in response to.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?de=752083&cat=34


----------------------------------------------
This message was sent by an unregistered or non logged in user.
This person may or may not be who they say they are.
The return address they provide may or may not be their correct address.

Sent 10:02 AM, Feb 01st, 2010 from I.P. Address 98.211.38.111/c-98-211-38-111.hsd1.tn.comcast.net



Jordan Russell to heatherblackall
show details Feb 1 (1 day ago)


Heather,

They are 12-15" in length. They are no sexable, sorry. They are very calm and very easy to handle.

Take care,
Jordan


Jordan Russell
714.931.9903
Costa Mesa, Ca

Shipping is done Monday - Wednesday.
All animals shipped via shipyourreptiles.com
small box $45.00
medium box $75.00
large box $100.00 (DELTA)


No Mites- No Junk- Realistic Pricing.

*All tortoises & turtles under 4" are sold for scientific or educational purposes only*

*It is the customer's responsibility to adhere to all state and local laws - know them!*

*no live arrival guarantee below 40* or above 80* F*

*Any claims, or issues must be emailed within 4 hours of receiving the shipment*

Heather Blackall to me
show details 6:20 PM (17 hours ago)


Hi Jordan

I appreciate you getting back with me so quickly. I would love to see some photos of some individuals. Preferably the smallest ones that you have. That would truly help me in choosing which I like the best. I may buy more than one. I would also like to chat with you via phone as I do have some additional questions that would be more in depth than an e-mail would require.So please let me know what a good time to call would be. I am in Nashville, TN.

Thanks
Heather

Jordan Russell to Heather
show details 6:37 PM (16 hours ago)


Heather, just heading out for a run. I should be back in about 2 hours. If that is too late, you can always try me tomorrow. My cell # is 714.931.9903

Take care,
Jordan

2.) she called me while I was out for a run, I called her when I got home.

3.) She asked who bred them, I told her that per my knowledge no one was actually proficient at breeding Dracaena in the United States, and that all of the animals on the market were from a farm in Peru, I even freely gave her the individual's name. She snapped at me saying that plenty of her friend's breed them (red flag, why are you calling me if your friend's breed them?). She stopped me and asked who else bought animals from that shipment, I told her that I didn't feel comfortable talking about other people. She asked if she said names if I would say yes or no, I told her I wasn't interested in doing that. She went on and on about how she's a scientist, and her recent job opportunity- kudos- that's rad but not pertinent- and was clearly done to validate who she was- particularly after stating "I know everyone in this industry" bold claim.... Anyhow, after her telling me that she wasn't interested in buying a "third hand animal, with unknown genetics, because she wants it for research" I asked her who has successfully reproduced dracaena on a regular basis in the States aside from a zoo, she skirted I asked again, she skirted and I said "ok, well you have a good night" and hung up. I don't need to waste my night on the phone with a loon, who was in my opinion talking out of her arse in a conversation. That was the end of the conversation, and here is this? I didn't realize being honest makes me a plague??? harsh words, very harsh words. Excuse me Heather let's see some scientific papers you've written to back up your words? I have bred over 40 species of animals, written numerous articles for Reptiles magazine, been hired by Animal Planet as a guest commentator, owned a retail store at 22 years old from my hard earned money, maintain the highest quality of care I have seen in nearly any collection- and you're calling me a PLAGUE?

Sincerely,
Jordan Russell
Questions? Feel free to call 714.931.9903 or email me: [email protected]

Sorry about the cut and paste, it didn't quite work correctly. The information is there, just some of it is posted multiple times.

Regards,
Jordan

Okay, if you really want details, here you go!!!!

Yes, I did contact him in regards to acquiring a few caiman lizards. I have been studying these animals for some time now, and am VERY familiar with them. I was looking to add some new bloodlines into my program. I have been looking for some younger imports to add to my collection. Behavior and temperament are crucial in all of my endeavors. Recently, much of the new blood have been older animals. Thus I was excited at the prospect of seeing some younger animals suddenly available on the market. I had never heard of this gentleman, and noticed he recently joined a number of forums under his new California Breeder’s Union format. After doing some additional research, I did come across a number of threads filled with examples of how he was unable to properly ship animals, identify genders, and abide by established agreements. Many were dated several years back. Thus I contacted him in an attempt to give him the benefit of the doubt, and assume he gained some professionalism after going back to school and aging a bit.

1) I made a simple request for him to take some individual photos of the smallest few for me to view. The only available picture was very cookie cutter, and only showed a portion of a group of animals. I like to see the exact animals I am purchasing.

He informed me that he could snap some pictures but would be unable to guarantee that I was getting the exact animal I picked. He went on to verbalize that he had 9 animals between 12 to 15 inches in the same enclosure and in all honestly couldn’t tell them apart. I am sorry, but what kind of expert can’t distinguish between animals? I have worked with a number of high end exotics for a number of prestigious organizations and have NEVER had an issue distinguishing between my animals.

2) I asked for gender specifics.

He first claimed that at that size gender could not be determined. That is very false. After I discussed there was a very simple procedure for determining gender, he admitted he just wasn’t comfortable sexing them. Again, for an expert, that shouldn’t be so complicated. Don’t own, care for, and sell animals that you don’t know a thing about.

3) I asked about the animals origins.

He first made an outlandish claim that every single captive bred caiman lizard in the United States all came from one gentleman in Peru. He went on to say that there was no other person who has been able to breed them successfully. That is a seriously erroneous comment. Many zoos and aquariums have very well established breeding programs in the States. Furthermore, there are a number of private breeders who have bred these animals stateside. I know many in the South and have personally witnessed hatching more than once. I have a serious problem with “dealers” making false accusations and claims. So to try and scam me on origins didn’t go over well.

Then he went on to say that he actually purchased the animals in bulk after pooling some money together with a group of others including some wholesalers. He admitted that the animals have changed hands many times already. He went on to indicate that he even got “screwed over” in the purchase agreement by those he went into business with. If someone were such an established and reputable dealer then why conduct business this way? What kind of so called friends do you do business with if them screw you over on impact? Again, not professional.

Then he went on to say that one of the wholesalers he was working with decided to sell his lot and “beat the rest of the group to the punch” at a discounted price. He said that made him feel as though he should “just dump” his babies “well below market value”. Well, even assuming that were the case, there would be not need to “dump” babies. Anyone who has a basic awareness of these animals understands that there numbers are still limited on the open market. When all of his buddy’s group were gone, he could still charge fair value for his animals and get it all day long. It is a simple matter of elementary economics dealing with supply and demand. This lack of understanding of the animal’s status just served as a bigger testament to the lack of knowledge of the animal.

4) The care he indicated that he was giving these animals, and diet is laughable at best.

I don’t like to see animals treated in such a poor manner. These are rare species, and most legitimate sources sell them for well over a grand each. The number is limited, and fresh bloodlines are scarce. I strongly discourage dealing with individuals who acquire animals through such poorly researched and structured formats. These animals do deserve respect, and treating an animal as a quick dollar doesn’t sit well with me. I understand not every individual is going to be an expert in every species, but if you are going to purchase and keep a species then KNOW THE ANIMAL!!!!!

5) During the entire course of the conversation, this gentleman was so defensive with every question, and absolutely the most rude individual I have ever spoken with in the reptile industry. There was a total lack of decency and basic respect. He was more interested in drilling me for my “connections” and wanting to learn about how I obtained my animals than by giving honest answers about the ones he had for sale.

OutofEdenExotics said:

Okay, if you really want details, here you go!!!!

Yes, I did contact him in regards to acquiring a few caiman lizards. I have been studying these animals for some time now, and am VERY familiar with them. I was looking to add some new bloodlines into my program. I have been looking for some younger imports to add to my collection. Behavior and temperament are crucial in all of my endeavors. Recently, much of the new blood have been older animals. Thus I was excited at the prospect of seeing some younger animals suddenly available on the market. I had never heard of this gentleman, and noticed he recently joined a number of forums under his new California Breeder’s Union format. After doing some additional research, I did come across a number of threads filled with examples of how he was unable to properly ship animals, identify genders, and abide by established agreements. Many were dated several years back. Thus I contacted him in an attempt to give him the benefit of the doubt, and assume he gained some professionalism after going back to school and aging a bit.

1) I made a simple request for him to take some individual photos of the smallest few for me to view. The only available picture was very cookie cutter, and only showed a portion of a group of animals. I like to see the exact animals I am purchasing.

He informed me that he could snap some pictures but would be unable to guarantee that I was getting the exact animal I picked. He went on to verbalize that he had 9 animals between 12 to 15 inches in the same enclosure and in all honestly couldn’t tell them apart. I am sorry, but what kind of expert can’t distinguish between animals? I have worked with a number of high end exotics for a number of prestigious organizations and have NEVER had an issue distinguishing between my animals.

Response: I stated I wasn't going to handpick one. I had multiple animals, and I wasn't going to categorize #1, #2, #3 etc.. if you don't like that, don't buy. It's very simple. A bad business person would have agreed to your request and not fullfilled it. Wow, honesty- what a flaw.

2) I asked for gender specifics.

He first claimed that at that size gender could not be determined. That is very false. After I discussed there was a very simple procedure for determining gender, he admitted he just wasn’t comfortable sexing them. Again, for an expert, that shouldn’t be so complicated. Don’t own, care for, and sell animals that you don’t know a thing about.

Response: This is an outright lie. This conversation never happened. You asked if I knew the sexes, I said I did not- that simple.

3) I asked about the animals origins.

He first made an outlandish claim that every single captive bred caiman lizard in the United States all came from one gentleman in Peru. He went on to say that there was no other person who has been able to breed them successfully. That is a seriously erroneous comment. Many zoos and aquariums have very well established breeding programs in the States. Furthermore, there are a number of private breeders who have bred these animals stateside. I know many in the South and have personally witnessed hatching more than once. I have a serious problem with “dealers” making false accusations and claims. So to try and scam me on origins didn’t go over well.

Then he went on to say that he actually purchased the animals in bulk after pooling some money together with a group of others including some wholesalers. He admitted that the animals have changed hands many times already. He went on to indicate that he even got “screwed over” in the purchase agreement by those he went into business with. If someone were such an established and reputable dealer then why conduct business this way? What kind of so called friends do you do business with if them screw you over on impact? Again, not professional.

Then he went on to say that one of the wholesalers he was working with decided to sell his lot and “beat the rest of the group to the punch” at a discounted price. He said that made him feel as though he should “just dump” his babies “well below market value”. Well, even assuming that were the case, there would be not need to “dump” babies. Anyone who has a basic awareness of these animals understands that there numbers are still limited on the open market. When all of his buddy’s group were gone, he could still charge fair value for his animals and get it all day long. It is a simple matter of elementary economics dealing with supply and demand. This lack of understanding of the animal’s status just served as a bigger testament to the lack of knowledge of the animal.

Response: This also is an outright lie. I stated numerous people brought this species in from the same original source, and that all of them on the open market were from that source. I also stated that someone had severely under-cut the market on kingsnake and subsequently cut the legs out for a lot of us and to stay competitive I had lowered my price. I also stated this was an artificially low price and would likely go back up soon.

4) The care he indicated that he was giving these animals, and diet is laughable at best.

I don’t like to see animals treated in such a poor manner. These are rare species, and most legitimate sources sell them for well over a grand each. The number is limited, and fresh bloodlines are scarce. I strongly discourage dealing with individuals who acquire animals through such poorly researched and structured formats. These animals do deserve respect, and treating an animal as a quick dollar doesn’t sit well with me. I understand not every individual is going to be an expert in every species, but if you are going to purchase and keep a species then KNOW THE ANIMAL!!!!!


Response: Do you know how to tell the truth?? YOU NEVER ASKED WHAT THEY WERE FEEDING ON, HOW THEY WERE HOUSED, OR ANYTHING IN REGARDS TO MY CARE! How can you say this stuff? I never said they were in one enclosure, they are not, I never said what they were feeding on other than in my ad, because you DID NOT ASK.


5) During the entire course of the conversation, this gentleman was so defensive with every question, and absolutely the most rude individual I have ever spoken with in the reptile industry. There was a total lack of decency and basic respect. He was more interested in drilling me for my “connections” and wanting to learn about how I obtained my animals than by giving honest answers about the ones he had for sale.

Click to expand...

My final response- get some prozac. You are 100% insane.

Jordan Russell