Bad Guy BaseballBeardies AkA Mac Watkins

DiamondDen · Jan 13, 2011

Hello all,

I had Mac contact me late last night asking if i would do a trade, He wanted to trade me a 7" hypotrans leather female for a italian silkback bearded dragon. Well later that night I got a phone call from Tom Clark witch happens to be the breeder of this dragon(the hypotrans leather female) and he told me that baseballbeardies contacted him about about this dragon he had purchased a little over a month ago was having issues ( He said Neuro problems) and tryed to blame it on the cold temp during shipping, he had contacted him once before this about this same female having problems, now i have no problem with him contacting Tom over and issues the female might have had, but my issues are that he messaged me asking to trade a dragon he knew was unheatlhy the same night he contacted tom asking for a replacment because she has health issues, i Have included our pm's email's and the photos he sent, it may take a few post's though... I feel like this guy was trying to f**k me and get more out of Tom at the same time because his care was not adequate to keep it healthy. He even said himself he doesn't handle his dragons often. I have a decent amount of dragons and they get handled every day.

I'm sure tom will post his emails soon to show the rest of this scam.

Link to Tom Clarks Dragon he had available, http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214715

Corky Jordan.

DiamondDen · Jan 13, 2011

Here's more emails

dragonluver83 · Jan 13, 2011

All most like I was waiting on this...

I hope this helps. This is what me and Mac went back in forth with. You can get a pretty good idea of Mac's intentions after reading Corky's e-mails then reading my E-mails. Please keep in mind. Mac was working two deals at the same time on this dragon. He wanted me to replace it, while hes trying to trade it to Corky. While he thinks this animal has a problem...

Again I have stated this multiple times thoughout multiple threads. Why would you want another dragon from a breeder if you think he sent you something with a problem? Most people who felt they were wrongly done ask for a cash money refund. I guess I am the lucky one. how many other breeders have customers that rather have replacement for animals with issues, than get your money back!!!

Okay with a quick guide though my e-mails.

My e-mails were in Blue

Mac's e-mails is in Red

Black and bold is me narrating what is going on.As you know please ask any Q's. I will be more than happy to answer anything.

From: Mac Watkins <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 11:07:38 -0600
To: Tom Clarke<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Red HYPO "Partial Translucent" Leatherback. 6 + inches . Female. $275.00 Plus shipping

She has arrived what a beauty. She scared the crap out of me at first becuase I thought she was a DOA. I put her in the warmth and after about 15 minutes she opened her eyes and stood up. I highly recommend you put another one closer to the heart pack. I will post a good guy thread sometime. Thankyou.

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 2:00 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey Mac glad you got her an like her.
Actually I have tested it last winter with a thermostat an the same setup as what I sent you. An the box was at or around 70. Thank you for informing me of that, though. Maybe I need to do a re-test. Was the heat pack still warm? Thanks for the info. Any Q's please contact me!
Tom Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

The below e-mail is TEN days after he got her and she settled in. It was him letting me know he posted a good guy thread about me. 10 days after she arrived. Pretty sure this was to make sure she settled in

Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 19:04:18 -0600

Subject: Re: Red HYPO "Partial Translucent" Leatherback. 6 + inches . Female.$275.00 Plus shipping
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1168669#post1168669

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 00:22:16 -0500

Subject: Re: Red HYPO "Partial Translucent" Leatherback. 6 + inches . Female.$275.00 Plus shipping
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

On 12/7 I received a Hypo partial Trans leather. I payed $290 on her. I remember telling you that she was not functioning when I got her. After I got her under heat she woke back up. This dragon did good but now I am sure it caused a neurological problem. I am asking for a trade kind of. If you want I will give you a video of her showing the way she acts. I read your guarentee and found out that I am like 4-5 days short of contacting you. I really hope you arent going to hold me up to those 5 days. I was thinking that we could get the problem worked out and I will do what you gaurentee to trade for a lower amount then what I payed for male. Tell me what you think?

On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Tom Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey Mac,

Sorry to hear about problems. I guess lets start with sending me that video.

Thanks,
Tom

At the time of this e-mail, i have already been in touch with Corky about him trying to trade him this animal, while he is trying to tell me it has Neurological problems. I wanted to play it out alittle to see where it goes.

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:56:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Red HYPO "Partial Translucent" Leatherback. 6 + inches . Female.$275.00 Plus shipping
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

I am not 100 % sure though. Sometimes she acts strange and sometimes she doesnt. I will try to get a video out back to you. Even if she was damaged what would I get in return?

On Jan 12, 2011, at 6:52 PM, Tom Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:

Mac,

I dont understand.. You have told me about a "neurological" problem. But havent told me whats going on. Again with "she acts strange and sometimes she doesnt?" Why dont you tell me whats going on instead of making a diagnosis. That video may help also. Do you have a video of her doing it? Can you please send it to me?

Also you said neurological problems. If your talking about her shaking maybe? then not being to active? If this is the problem your feeding her to big of insects. She is having seizures, then partial paralysis. Your feeding her the wrong size insect.

"If she is damaged?" The only thing I sell that you could consider "damaged", are dragons with nips. I havent and do not have neuro. problems. If there was some kind of neuro prob. It would have showed up right away. not 35 days after receiving her. Unless dropped or something fell on her?

I want to see the video before I make any decision. The fact that you bought the dragon then posted a gg. thread about me 10 days after she settled in. Then 35 days after shipment, you make FIRST contact with a problem. You have been around long enough to know if there is a problem to contact the seller right away.

Thanks for your time and please try and get me that video!
Tom

As I got into detail about the situation, I remained calm, pretty sure this guy was just trying to get something out of me, and or rip of Corky.

Now at this time before the next e-mail Corky has told him he was interested. (we were trying to get pic out of him to prove it was the same dragon.) He hit me back with this e-mail.

On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Mac Watkins <[email protected]> wrote:

Listen I am just going to keep her. The problem was that it was to cold because it snowed. Since then I lowered the heat lamps in the cage and she is doing well. My bad, my problem sorry for the confusion she is now acting normal again.

I didnt even have a chance to respond to this e-mail. and I was hit with another one. It was AFTER Corky told him he didnt want the dragon. He then sent this e-mail.

I got this e-mail at 1:23 a.m.

Wait she is acting weird again. Sorry for the confusion. I will get the video out tommorow. Hopefully around noon.

So now after Corky told him he didnt want it, he came back to me and wanted to get something out of it, again. After it was fine.

Anyone see whats going on here???

Mac you seem to be a hell of a guy.

You tell me a dragon has problems 35 days after shipment.

then you try and trade it to another breeder!!! :nonod:

Then when he tells you he dont want it. You then tell him you think it has a problem and you contact me back, again. To see what I will now do for you, again. :nonod:

DiamondDen · Jan 13, 2011

Last picture.

DiamondDen · Jan 13, 2011

I only made this thread to make buyer's and sellers aware of what he is doing so no one else gets put in this situation.

Corky Jordan

PAVLOVK1025 · Jan 13, 2011

Now thats a mother[loving] BOI post.
Beautifully organized.

Mac...integrity phailz dude. What else can be said right? :shrug01:

Just...damn. :NoNo:

Matt2979 · Jan 13, 2011

Mac, that's just downright despicable and underhanded. And that doesn't even start to address your obvious lack of husbandry. FEED that poor little dragon and get some calcium in her!!!! If you hardly handle your dragons, how do you give them a bath??? I know that mine refuse to drink from a water bowl so the only water they drink is when they are in a bath (at least twice a week) and when I spray them (2-3 times/day). Yours looks very dehydrated. Rather than trade her, maybe you should just hand her over to someone that will actually give her what she needs!

Kristi23 · Jan 13, 2011

He wanted to do a trade with me yesterday, too. (for a snake) I'm really glad that I didn't do it. I would hate to see how my leopard gecko would have been after a month with him.

dragonluver83 · Jan 13, 2011

Kristi23 said:
He wanted to do a trade with me yesterday, too. (for a snake) I'm really glad that I didn't do it. I would hate to see how my leopard gecko would have been after a month with him.

Its pretty sad, He sent a video of the dragon walking, and its so sad.

I dont know it got in that bad of shape. It took time to wear this dragon down to the way it looks and acts now.

I would like to know why he hasnt come here to answer anything. He has been told about this thread by a few ppl. An has been sending me e-mails about the dragon. But dodges this thread.

I have looked up his past he has a few gg threads. But a disturbing B.G. thread. He tried to sell a purple hypo trans that was dyed purple from repti sand. :shrug01:

.. Didnt get to read it all just enough to know the purple came off with the dragons shed.

DiamondDen · Jan 13, 2011

Mac, that's just downright despicable and underhanded. And that doesn't even start to address your obvious lack of husbandry. FEED that poor little dragon and get some calcium in her!!!! If you hardly handle your dragons, how do you give them a bath??? I know that mine refuse to drink from a water bowl so the only water they drink is when they are in a bath (at least twice a week) and when I spray them (2-3 times/day). Yours looks very dehydrated. Rather than trade her, maybe you should just hand her over to someone that will actually give her what she needs!

I agree 100% Matt, He should really put some time into his animals and get them doing better. She is really dehydrated, skinny (you can see her rib's in some of the photo's and bones in tailbase) and he said it was because he didn't feed her that day yet anyone who knows about dragons knows that it takes days of not feeding and no baths to get a dragon that dehydrated and skinny. And like you said he should hand it over to someone who will give the animal the time it need instead of letting it get sicker and die off with time.

He wanted to do a trade with me yesterday, too. (for a snake) I'm really glad that I didn't do it. I would hate to see how my leopard gecko would have been after a month with him.

I agree i would of hated to get that dragon and see how my silkie would have turned out it takes allot of time and care to hve them if you mess up just the slightest bit it's downhill from there, He probable would have tried to get me to replace it to as it would of been his fault.

He also just sent me this message via e-mail,

My last message,

I know you where trying to trade me a unhealthy dragon, and trying to get tom to replace it at the same time, and then when you thought I was going to do the trade, you where telling tom that she seemed fine, and then when I said I would pass you told him she was still having the problems, that is pretty bad of you if the dragon had problems and you try to trade her off to someone else for a healthy dragon (especially a person who knows there stuff). There is a bad guy about this.

His message,

That's why I am not trading her with you. I really was not trying to rip you off. I wasn't sure what it was. By no means am I dragon expert like you and Tom are

He was going to trade it to me untill i said i would pass then when i told him he was in the wrong he tried to make it sound a little better with the whole i am not trading her with you and i really wasn't trying to rip you off

(YES YOU WERE YOU WERE TELLING TOM IT WAS SICK WHILE ASKING ME TO TRADE THATS TRYING TO RIP ME OFF IS IT NOT???) You would have went threw with the trade if i didn't say i would pass.

DiamondDen · Jan 13, 2011

And OMG Tom sent me the video of it it's so sad I feel so bad for the beardie.

laterob · Jan 13, 2011

So, Corky...do you think the animal is malnourished/dehydrated? Why didn't the OP just ask someone for help and advice? Seems shi&*y to me that someone would pay so much for something they don't know how to take care of, then not get any help, then try to trade it away before it dies.

DiamondDen · Jan 13, 2011

Hi Rob,

I do think this female hypotrans leather was malnourished/dehydrated, Her eye lids are sunk in witch means she's not getting enough water/IS dehydrated and with how skinny it is it looks like he feeds it once a day if it's lucky or has parasites and need to be treated with albon and panacur and then some acidophiliz to help it recover. I know if i paid $290 for a dragon i would care for it the proper way(right uvb light, heat spot and temp right, keep it in a 56q bin with paper towel on the bottom and clean it every day or after everytime it use's the bathroom if being treated, and so on) Or ask someone with experience to help.

DiamondDen · Jan 13, 2011

And with how the dragon looks in the video it seems like he droped it and it hit the floor pretty hard, looks like she had a traumatic experience or isn't getting the right supplements she needs.

dragonluver83 · Jan 13, 2011

laterob said:
So, Corky...do you think the animal is malnourished/dehydrated? Why didn't the OP just ask someone for help and advice? Seems shi&*y to me that someone would pay so much for something they don't know how to take care of, then not get any help, then try to trade it away before it dies.

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 18:54:21 -0500

Subject: Re: Red HYPO "Partial Translucent" Leatherback. 6 + inches . Female.$275.00 Plus shipping
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

It try to feed her but she will not eat. I have tryed everything. Gave her crickets, a bunch of types of worms, different veggies. I am currently giving her a bath almost everday. Today she drank twice in the bath. I have no idea why you are acting like this, though. I recieved the dragon and the bones were showing in her back. Look in the pictures you can see the bones in her back. When I got her she wasnt even functioning nor moving. I also dont know why you are accusing me of doing this with steven, nicole, or what some people call sticole. I dont even know them. I only bought a dragon from them because I liked it ,the same case with you. I posted a good guy thread because my purchase with him was good. I was trying to trade this dragon with corky that way I could get a Silk. Then I started to take in consideration that there is something wrong with this dragon. I in no way am going to trade this with anyone right now till it gets to full health. I by no means am trying to chose sides with Mythical Dragons I just want help. You have the right to not take the dragon back thats why I asked. Now you think that I tryed to scam someone so you take your words back. Just help me? All I truthfully want is this female to be healthy. What do I need to do to fix her back to health?

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 7:13 PM, Tom Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:

When was the last time she ate? Please send me a picture of the cage setup.

I have looked at the difference in both sets of pics. You can tell a difference in this dragons appearance from when I posted the ad, and now. Also others can see this. So its not just me.

When you got her she was in a dark cooler box. Dragons are not active when its dark. Dragons are also not active or slower moving when cooler. The fact that she came out of the box and wasnt active for the first 15 minutes. Is not a big deal.

You were trying to trade this dragon to Corky. What do you think would of happened when he got that animal and it was acting like that?

My words were also no deeper than send me the video and we will go from there. Like i have posted and said to others. I would have given you another dragon. double het leather with no guarantee. But the fact that you tried to pull as fast one, really upsets me. You do know me, and or have read my post in the boi section. I dont take lightly to other who try to f$%* others.

What do you want me to say. I have no clue what the hell is going on over there. I havent been with that dragon. An I never seen this before.

is the dragon eating at all? if so how much and when? What are the temps in your cage. You will need to give it calcium boost. and eating is a big deal. So send me back the dragons diet. Go to the discussion forum on fauna and read the threads that say calcium boost, and a thread that says somthing with MBD in the title. inside that thread it explains how to give them calcium boost. easier to send you there then to re-type it all.

This is only a start. I dont know how to fix a problem i have never encountered before??? If something else occurred with this dragon now would be a good time to tell me so i can try to properly trouble shoot this.

I will do what I can to try and trouble shoot this. But I dont know whats wrong. I am only doing this for my animal. As I dont want to be friendly with you at this point!!

Tom

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:27:32 -0500

Subject: Re: Red HYPO "Partial Translucent" Leatherback. 6 + inches . Female.$275.00 Plus shipping
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Right now if we were trading I honestly wouldnt have done it. Awhile back sure I would have done the trade. I didnt know. I dont know signs of a sick dragon or a hungry dragon. I just feed them, give them water and do what I do know about them. Well she is sharing a cage with another dragon. It is a 24' long x 12" deep x 15" high. There is a log as a basking spot. She has a uvb light and a basking light. She has water and currently collard greens with calcium on it. I use the calcium from Flukers with the vitamin D3. The last time she ate pyshically before my eyes was about 2 days ago. Nothing major except I feed her to many mealworms the a week ago, and she ate all of them but then later puked some up. Right now she hasn't eaten for me in the last two days so no she isn't eating. I am about to look up the calcium boost on Fauna. Currently the hot side is 105 degrees and the cool side 79 degrees. This week I am feeding mealworms, waxworms, crickets, collards, and turnips

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Tom Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:

how big is its cage mate?

How long has it been with a cage mate? This is fine, he is use to animals

Whos the other dragon from?

Is she more on the cool side or the hot side? or the same as when she came in?

corrections on husbandry and care:

*you should have a rock in there also as it gathers and holds heat way better than any stick.

* paper up the sides and back of the tank.

* feeding schedule here is as follows. chopped greens and what not at the beginning of the day. Then a round of insects a few hrs after there lights are turned on. This feeding can consist of any insect.( BUT you have to limit what you feed them, as they WILL over eat. and regurgitate. If to much is eaten it will have seizures and than be paralyzed for a short period of time. Sometimes this causes death.) about a hlaf of dozen or a few more than that should be good. Than a few hrs before the lights go out, give him/her another round. Remember make sure the dragon has plenty of light time left to make sure the recently eat bugs gets digested.

*BUT you have a dragon that doesnt want to eat. you have to build its appetite back up. So dont offer her food for awhile maybe even a whole day just put fresh greens in her tank. then the following day throw ONE cricket in there. see if she chases it down. If she does only give her one or two more. The last thing you want to do is feed her till she is full. Keep her hungry. If you keep her hungry she will keep a appetite and then hopefully it will be a good start to a recovery. PLEASE read that calcium thread. I know she is lacking calcium. BIG TIME. so tend to it. you can give calcium in smaller doses three times a day for the next few days then once a day for the next solid month. I know this will help but I dont know about a full recovery. Like i said I never dealt with this before.

*also until she is better she should be housed on her own.

Get to work on this asap. as she can still die from this issue. or never fully recover.

Above in bold, I didnt want this to go un-noticed. This dragon was housed with another dragon. THIS IS NOT OKAY!!! There was no quarantine practices here at all!!!! This animal was thrown in with another animal and wait till you hear the rest of it!

It has been with it's cage mate since the day I got her. The other dragon is 8 1/2" and she is 7 1/2". The other dragon is from your favorite, Mythical Dragons. She stays on the hot end alot. When she came in thats what she did but now she gets closer to the heat lamp. I will do all of this tommorow . Thanks for the help. Also I attached a picture because she looks so fat and hasn't eaten in awhile. You know what that is?

Yup, Thats right. He didnt quarantine either dragon. One of the dragons he purchased is from a breeder that has many problems. An the red h.t. leather dragon is housed with another dragon that is a good size larger than the one from me. Everyone knows, larger babies step over the little ones to gobble up all the food. They also can become very dominate.

He asked for help, so as much as i dont like helping ppl like this, I am going to. I dont want to see the dragon die. Even though its pretty bad. I seen a video I wish I knew how to post it.

laterob · Jan 13, 2011

Sorry, Tom.....I forgot for a second the beardie came from you. I give you major props for still trying to take care of the animal. The OP has done wrong in many ways...

dragonluver83 · Jan 13, 2011

laterob said:
Sorry, Tom.....I forgot for a second the beardie came from you. I give you major props for still trying to take care of the animal. The OP has done wrong in many ways...

Well im the only one that is in touch with Mac. I am trying to trouble shoot this problem.

The OP isnt the B.G. Diamond den is the OP. I am assisting them because this IS my dragon, AND Mac was e-mailing me about problems with this dragon. Wanting another dragon. At the same time he is trying to trade this animal with a serious problem.

So Diamond would have gotten screwed, By mac. And I would have sent him another animal to make my customer satisfied. But in the end the only thing Mac is getting is a lesson on how to care for his sick beardie. If he is going to care for it properly. I am going to do my best to help. THEN, ties will be broke and my do not sell list will get one more name on it.

Thanks for the kudos.

Tom

DiamondDen · Jan 14, 2011

Hey Tom here's the video for you I think it was much more clear before i put it in photobucket notice how it's falling side to side

BreedersCircle · Jan 14, 2011

Pretty funny,
Mac tried to trade this same dragon to me for one of my red females.
When I said she looked a little skinny he said she had threw up her worms because he gave her too many... and that she would be just fine.
That was already a flag for me.
I dont understand why somebody would try to trade of a dragon with problems like it wont get back to them? :shrug01:

dragonluver83 · Jan 14, 2011

BreedersCircle said:
Pretty funny,
Mac tried to trade this same dragon to me for one of my red females.
When I said she looked a little skinny he said she had threw up her worms because he gave her too many... and that she would be just fine.
That was already a flag for me.
I dont understand why somebody would try to trade of a dragon with problems like it wont get back to them?

THIS is what was running through my head. How many other people is he trying to trade this sick beardie too? Sorry Jon, I usually drop you a line when something like this is going on, but i though i had in somewhat contained between him telling me something was wrong. And me and Corky working on pictured proof.

I guess some people dont think about breeders contacting and talking to each other.... It happens a lot more than most people know. Most breeders converse and contact each other on a semi regular basis. So word travels faster than a problem to be solved. From the guy/gal that breeders 10 clutches a year. To the guys/gals that produce thousands of eggs a year. We ALL talk. As Mac found out.

Bad Guy BaseballBeardies AkA Mac Watkins

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I'll hurt your feelings..

My dawg has the bluuues.

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Not THAT Bad of a guy...

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