Bad Guy Mailibumiles (Miles Sundher) BAD BUSINESS ETHICS

I ordered a 1.2 Ambanja trio along with a 0.1 Ambilobe. When I got the chameleons the 2 Ambanja females were sick (See pictures) One was extremely malnourished and the other had an eye infection. I immediately let him know and his response was that He didn't know the one female was malnourished and he said he didn't know the other female had an eye infection, he just thought her eyes were bigger than others. After talking on the phone with Miles for about an hour we came to this conclusion. Since I can't send him back all the animals and get reimbursed because he said he already spent all the money I sent him, he would wait and see if I could nurse the females back to health and if there were any complications he would reimburse me.

After that phone call I felt a little better on our deal and diligently tried to get both females to perfect health. Unfortunately the underweight female died and I let Miles know and he held to his word and reimbursed me $150 for the female.

About a week ago the second female died. I sent her out to get a necropsy and the results came back that the infection of the eye spread and really took a toll on her organs, the kidneys especially. When the infection spread I have no idea, it could have been before I got her and the treatment I was giving her was just too late to help her.

I got the sick chameleons on the 22 of March and the second female died on April 9th. I understand most health guarantees are usually 2 or 3 days, one week max for a few people out there, but with my situation there are extenuating circumstances and hoped that Miles would stay true to his word from the phone conversation we had a couple of weeks ago.

I have never gotten a sickly chameleon let alone how bad these two females were and I know he is new to the hobby (about 3 or 4 months) so i tried to be sympathetic and help him by giving him advice and telling him to work on his husbandry more before he starts getting into trouble with multiple people from sending sick chams to people. Now it is getting to a point that I feel he is trying to take advantage of the situation since it has been so long he isn't going to honor any kind of health warranty.

Any and all opinion are appreciated, this is a first for me and I don't like to bash people in any way. I tried many times through e-mail asking him for the reimbursement and he asked for proof of the dead female, when I showed him proof, he questioned if it was the same female, and then he questioned the legitimacy of the necropsy. I truly feel like he will just keep playing games and go in circles until I give up or do something drastic. (Here is to doing something drastic)

Trevor Rizzuto

Here are the rest of the photos

Sorry for the quality of the photos, they were taken from my camera phone.

Damb those pics look painful........Chameleons are difficult for even an experienced keeper, maybe Miles should look into a different hobby and leave the reselling wild caught animals to the professionals.

Trevor, I tried to work with you the best I could, yes I am new to the hobby and was unaware I was selling you ill animals. As a result I payed for the one that died a week after the sale and I also payed you for the vet bills on the eye infection. Now when you purchased the chameleons I gave no health guarentee at all other than live arival as chameleons are very fragile and hard to care for animals. I still tried to reason with you and yes I wanted to verify the legitimacy of the animals demise. And still you did not give me any proof of a necropsy done for the female. Also I dont understand why now a month after the sale you want your money back when most guarentees if even given any are in the first 3 days. Now I have recently sold 2 other chameleons to 2 different people on this classified and had no problems which is why I questioned the second female in the first place. I just dont understand why you feel that I am obligated to refund you for the second female when she died 3 weeks after they were shipped to you when there was no guarentee on them in the first place and even where there is with a chameleon in the wrong care they can go from perfect health to next to death in a matter of days if cared for incorrectly.

I would also like to point out that after reimbursing you for the first female I also payed for the vet bill for the second female and at that point you even said you believed that she was going to be fine from there once it got its medicine and then at that point it was fine for 2 weeks before the infection had spread which killed her.

malibumiles said:

Now when you purchased the chameleons I gave no health guarentee at all other than live arival as chameleons are very fragile and hard to care for animals.

Click to expand...

A live arrival guarantee is fine if that's what the buyer agrees to, but such a guarantee presumes it to be a healthy animal, not that it will arrive alive but in need of serious medical care.
You sent two animals that should have never been shipped, particularly the one with the eye infection. Choosing to ship a sick animal then trying to fall back on a live arrival only guarantee is just bad business practices.

malibumiles said:

Also I dont understand why now a month after the sale you want your money back when most guarentees if even given any are in the first 3 days.

Click to expand...

malibumiles said:

I just dont understand why you feel that I am obligated to refund you for the second female when she died 3 weeks after they were shipped to you when there was no guarentee on them in the first place....

Click to expand...

He wanted a refund immediately, but you didn't provide one. Having spent the money and being unable to refund for a problem isn't an excuse I'm afraid. Lesson number one when selling reptiles, don't spend the money until you know the customer is satisfied and the deal is officially complete.

Your inability to refund initially is what makes you obligated to refund now. Three weeks having passed does not negate the fact that female was shipped with a serious infection. You gave Trevor no choice but to try to nurse the cham back to health. Had you offered to refund at first and he declined, preferring to try to medicate it, then it would have been on him after that. That option was not available to him, so you still bear the responsibility since the death was a result of the condition you sent her in.

A copy of the necropsy is a reasonable request, and if that is provided to you, then as I see it you still owe him a refund, a refund which he was entitled to on the day she arrived.
What you paid for the vet bills really isn't a factor. The vet visit was also a result of her original condition, and it's a bill that wouldn't have existed if he had been refunded immediately like he should have been.

At this point, I'd just take it as a lesson learned, eat the loss, and make it right with your customer. Everyone learns similar lessons when getting into this hobby, and like any education, they are rarely free.

Everything Clay has stated is correct and I agree completely with it.

That aside ...

malibumiles said:

Trevor, I tried to work with you the best I could, yes I am new to the hobby and was unaware I was selling you ill animals. As a result I payed for the one that died a week after the sale and I also payed you for the vet bills on the eye infection. Now when you purchased the chameleons I gave no health guarentee at all other than live arival as chameleons are very fragile and hard to care for animals. I still tried to reason with you and yes I wanted to verify the legitimacy of the animals demise. And still you did not give me any proof of a necropsy done for the female. Also I dont understand why now a month after the sale you want your money back when most guarentees if even given any are in the first 3 days. Now I have recently sold 2 other chameleons to 2 different people on this classified and had no problems which is why I questioned the second female in the first place. I just dont understand why you feel that I am obligated to refund you for the second female when she died 3 weeks after they were shipped to you when there was no guarentee on them in the first place and even where there is with a chameleon in the wrong care they can go from perfect health to next to death in a matter of days if cared for incorrectly.

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The best you could was getting him his money back. Since you seem to be doing other sales so well, those proceeds should have gone to Trevor. Just because you spent the money ahead of time is not an excuse for not giving him the money back at all.

"When most guarantees are given", most reputable (key word) sellers/breeders, back up their animals under particular circumstances beyond their live arrival or health guarantees. It even seems you do not dispute that you and he made an agreement when he first informed you of their poor health.

A million good deals is not where someone shows their worth. The one bad deal and the way they handle it is. You are new to this hobby, so new, in my opinion, you should not yet be selling animals if you are selling them in that condition and not realizing that it is a bad condition. However, since that is now irrelevant at this point, let me offer you one good piece of advice: great sellers/breeders are great for how the treat the customer when things go wrong. It is easy to have a great reputation when all of your sales go off without a hitch, but it is not so easy when something goes wrong because then you are truly tested.

The BOI is littered with sellers who won't budge on ToS or for whatever other reason. You acknowledged that these animals were in poor condition and agreed to that much with the seller. You cannot use the time as an excuse since you knew this. You also cannot use the fact he thought she would pull through as an excuse. As with any animal, reptile or otherwise, their health can suddenly decline while in the process of healing or treatment. Chameleons are incredibly delicate creatures, so much so I would never even deal with them, so for one to suddenly suffer health failure in the middle of healing is not that bizarre. The immune system was likely already badly compromised.

The last thing I put in bold? You should learn a lesson from it. Clearly, you would know this as they were in horrid condition when they came from your care to his.

Do not let this one sale destroy your reputation before you even really get started. It is not worth it. Not even a little bit. Chalk it up to experience, learn to do things better and work something out with Trevor, preferably, give him his money back.

As for Trevor, can you scan the necro and throw it up here? Also, the correspondents between the two of you?

ok just to clear this up I have not been given any information on the necropsy. Also trevor took the female to the vet before contacting me that she had an eye infection. After the vet he contacted me and asked if I would pay for the vet bills. I payed the vet bill with no questions. Then the next day after going to the vet without communicating with me asks for his money back. Which at this point already paying for the vet bills I couldnt afford to pay him back. It wasnt that I spent all the money it was that I had partialy reimbursed him for 1 female already and vet bills on another.

As for the agreement of health all I agreed was to pay the vet bills and reimburse him for the one that seemed to be dieing at that time. Both of us had agreed that the second female after seeing the vet would be fine.

As for working with trevor I have done all I can, he wouldnt send me a copy of the necropsy. I have tried time and time again to work with him after paying for the first female and then paying the vet bill on the second.

At the time that I reimbursed him for the vet bill and the first female he told be that we were cool and that it was done that that was all I needed to send him and then 3 weeks later he wants more from me after saying that I had reimbersed him enough

Can either of your provide e-mails between each other?

malibumiles said:

ok just to clear this up I have not been given any information on the necropsy. Also trevor took the female to the vet before contacting me that she had an eye infection. After the vet he contacted me and asked if I would pay for the vet bills. I payed the vet bill with no questions. Then the next day after going to the vet without communicating with me asks for his money back. Which at this point already paying for the vet bills I couldnt afford to pay him back. It wasnt that I spent all the money it was that I had partialy reimbursed him for 1 female already and vet bills on another.

As for the agreement of health all I agreed was to pay the vet bills and reimburse him for the one that seemed to be dieing at that time. Both of us had agreed that the second female after seeing the vet would be fine.

As for working with trevor I have done all I can, he wouldnt send me a copy of the necropsy. I have tried time and time again to work with him after paying for the first female and then paying the vet bill on the second.

At the time that I reimbursed him for the vet bill and the first female he told be that we were cool and that it was done that that was all I needed to send him and then 3 weeks later he wants more from me after saying that I had reimbersed him enough

Click to expand...

The day I got the chameleons I took the second one into the vet and got baytril. The total fee was $40. I never once claimed we were "Done".

I have all the e-mails, do I copy/paste or is there another way to do it?

To Clarify to everyone, when I got the chameleons I went to the vet and got Baytril. After that one trip I never went to the vet again. So at that point I got $40 for the vet bill. After that it wasn't until the 27th when the first female died and he reimbursed me $150.

So for him to say he spent all the money on reimbursement, meant after the sale he only had $40. Until the 27th, about a week after I got the chams, then he had $150 to reimburse me. This is what I have had to deal with this whole time, the twisted stories and embellishments to make things seem different from how they really are.

E-mails ...? Anyone?

I just asked, what process is there to transferring them?!

Just copy and past with the headers.

I was asked not to mention his name and I will stick to that, I came across wrong in the last email I didnt mean he had sent anything I meant he has delt with you and was not satisfied with the outcome. I am done as well going back an forth, if you sent me the info that you payed the vet for then this would be different but at this point I have given up as well.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:48 PM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

WOW! I am shocked! OK, well I am done conversing with you at this point, you have proven that you are not going to reimburse me and now you are making false accusations, if you had an actual person who said that you would have stated a name, but I know that is a false accusation because I have never done anything of the sorts. I don't even think I have had a shipment of chameleons that were sick EVER before doing business with you. I am disgusted by your actions after I was so kind and understanding with you and never once lost control and for you to now say I AM THE CROOK is a step too far. You will be sent a link of the thread when it is published first thing in the morning. Good night

Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 22:41:18 -0700

Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

I am only questioning you now because I talked to someone I was asked not to give out there name but they said that you have been crooked with deals before and try to get money back, now I dont think this is tru but at the same time why would someone lie about that when I asked about my situation. I am only considering this because an eye infection seems to be a great reason for someone to lie and say it died when it recovered fine.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

I am not willing to go back and forth any further, I am creating a complaint on the BOI already and am going to allow everyone to see how ridiculous this situation is. I will not allow you to question my honesty and integrity especially after how everything has turned out with your sick chams and you being new to the hobby and not even knowing they were sick chameleons. So I will post the complain first thing in the morning if I do no see the $150 in my PayPal by then. It seems that is one thing or another with you, first you question if the female is dead, then when I supply the evidence you question if its the actual female, now its wanting the documentation of the necropsy. I AM NOT PLAYING GAMES ANYMORE. This is your final chance before your lack of business ethics is shown to everyone.

Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 22:22:40 -0700

Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

no i said her value was 175 and the other one 125 but then you said it made more snes for it to be 150 even either way its a $25 difference from the necropsy. I am curious to see the results of the necropsy. I mean you make all these claims why dont you just send me the information from the necropsy.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:32 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Alright if that is how you are going to be you are going to have to deal with a lot of people jumping on you for your actions. The necropsy was $120 and the female was $175 you said it yourself how much she was when we talked on the phone, and the other dead female was $150. Now you are just blatantly lying and I will not stand for it. Hope the $175 was worth it because with the evidence I show and all the pictures that are shown, you will not have anyone wanting to buy from you. You did this to yourself, I have been courteous and understanding this whole time and for you so be so aggresive towards me and claim that you don't even know if that's the female is so insulting that I have no sympathy for how people are going to view your business practices!
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From: Miles Sundher <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 21:23:46 -0700
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe

look from that picture I cant tell if its the female, on top that this long after our deal I cant honor the health of the chameleon this far in the future.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Miles Sundher <[email protected]> wrote:

yes but the necropsy was the cost of the female so why was it needed and that was not what you offered before, before you said you wanted the entire shipment sent back. As for it being dead again you havnt even sent me pictures of her to verify that it was in fact my female that died. Also how can I be sure that the necropsy was done on the female you sent me you did all this before doing anything with me. Also why would you have gotten a necropsy in the first place for 125 when the female was about 125. Before I consider any reimbursement I need to see pictures of the animal and get all the information on the necropsy from the vet.


On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:02 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

You are not understanding, I did the necropsy because YOU sent me a sick animal and I needed to prove the death was not MY fault. I am NOT asking for reimbursement for the necropsy, I did it so I would have legitimate reasons for me asking to be reimbursed for the price of the female. I can and will send you pictures when I get home of the dead female. I feel like you are misunderstanding my empathy because I know how it is starting up, for some one who can be taken advantage of. The normal thing that should have been done was for me to send you back the sick animals and be reimbursed, but you said you couldn't do that because you already spent the money so I was stuck. I will send you the picture now and hopefully you will make the right decision and just reimburse me for the original price of the female.
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From: Miles Sundher <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:34:54 -0700
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe

are you serious? its been a fricking month since this happened I am not being disrespectful. You havent even sent me pictures of the female, I never asked you to do this necropsy thing and how do I know its even true.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 8:29 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Alright, I will send you the link to the boi when I make the thread and you can say your side of the story, I feel very taken advantage of and thoroughly disrespected from these last couple messages. I talked to you on the phone and tried to help you even after I got 2 sick chameleons from you and I got reassured by you that you would be fair in this crappy situation and now you are not staying true to your words. I am just dissappointed on top of being dissappointed. I just don't see how it is fair for you to not reimburse me for her after I have spend close to $200 on her vet bills. Most people would want the vet bills paid for and reimbursement, but all I am asking for is just what I paid for the female. I don't think you understand how this business works yet since you are so new and you are not starting out on the right foot. Anyways ill wait to hear your response before I do anything.
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From: Miles Sundher <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:07:58 -0700
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe

ok I dont know what to say, I cant honor any healthy guarentees this long after the shipment
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 7:47 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Are you being serious right now?! I have been patient and overly understanding throughout this whole process and you are giving me crap because I wanted to find out why the cham died, being that it was sick when I got it, the results show that it was in fact because of the sickness that she had in your care and you have the gall to criticize me for finding that out?
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From: Miles Sundher <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:26:07 -0700
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe

ok well I didnt ask you to do the necrospy that was your desicion, do you have pictures of her dead? I mean you even said yourself that you werent worried about her health after taking her to the vet, if you were we would have figured this out back when I reimbursed you for the other female

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 6:17 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

I understand the issue of me having her for a couple of weeks, but you sold her to me sick, whether you knew or not is not a legitimate excuse I will still be losing money if I get reimbursed for her price because I had to spend $120 to get a necrospy done and I am not asking for you to reimburse me for that. When you asked people for advice did you tell them that you sold her to me with an infection? I understand this is new for you, but it is also new to me, I have never gotten chameleons that were that sick and I have never had a situation where the sick chams die on me either.
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From: Miles Sundher <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 17:54:52 -0700
To: Trevor Rizzuto<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe

i dont know I mean I payed for the vet on her and payed you for the other female this seems to be a bit to long for me to do anything on this. I asked a few other people about what they think I should do and most people dont think at this point its my issue as you even said to me she seemed solid and would get better from the medicine.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

So how do you feel we can resolve this whole issue?

Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 23:18:24 -0700

Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

ok I guess that makes sense I mean I just dont know what to do in this situation because this is a first for me. Any issues I have had vets identified the problem so something being more severe is new.

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:15 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

No, they didn't do a whole blood culture because it was prevalent that her eyes were infected so they gave me the treatment to give her. Even if they did a whole blood culture they would have had to give her extremely hard meds that she most probably wouldn't have recovered from being that her kidneys are being thrashed and medication for reptiles is hard on kidneys as is, so she was dead either way.
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From: Miles Sundher <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 23:02:00 -0700
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe


oh but wouldnt a vet be able to tell you how severe it was because when you took it you didnt seem concerned about it at all.
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 10:55 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

It was an infection and they gave me medication for it, unfortunately I started treatment on her too late and the bacteria already spread too much.
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From: Miles Sundher <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 22:50:24 -0700
To: Trevor Rizzuto<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe

I agree that this is terrible but even I couldnt have known anything like that if you didnt realize it and shouldnt the vet have said something when you went and had her checked out?

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

The results came back, the bacteria from the eye infection spread. The reason why she was drinking so much was because her kidneys were failing because there was so much bacteria in her system. I am just at a loss for words at this point with both females gone.

Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:31:36 -0700

Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

jeeze thats terrible? how did it happen if she was eating and drinking and was totally fine outside of the eye infection?

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey Miles, Bad news the female with the eye infection died too. I took her to get a necropsy done yesterday so I will get the 100% cause of death soon. I am pretty sure is was because of the infection because she was eating and drinking well. I just wanted to keep you posted, let you know when I find out more information.

Trevor Rizzuto

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 12:05:10 -0700

Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

fingers are crossed I hope for the best, and again I am really sorry for this whole ordeal

On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

Bad news Miles, she passed through the night. I tried my best to bring her back from the brink, but she was just too weak.

Trevor

Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 14:42:15 -0700

Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

I am hoping for the best, keep me posted and let me know if she takes a turn for the worst

On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

Still to my knowledge hasn't eaten, I am misting her a lot with warm water and shes still drinking which is a better sign than if she wasn't. Hopefully she gets her appetite back soon before its too late.

Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 07:32:48 -0700

Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

was just checking in, how is she doing? has she eaten yet?

On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Miles Sundher <[email protected]> wrote:

alright keep me posted and again i am sorry about how this all turned out, like you said I am still learning but I cant believe all the issues that female has


On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

Ok, I will keep you posted on the females condition.

Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:58:27 -0700

Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

the female with eye problem I now see what you mean i cant say that wasnt there before as I did not know what it looked like I thought she just had eyes that stuck out a bit more than the norm but I completely agree they are even larger than normal as for female # 2 she does not look good at all. I can say honestly that she was not looking like that with the eye closed and sunken in but that rough skin that you say is an attempt to shed seems to have gotten larger. Now that I see what you meant on the phone she had a little bit of that skin color difference but I though it was just a change of state they got from different stages they have with theyre skin like color pigment like gravid receptive and normal color difference. Anyway if she does not make it I definitely will work something out because I definitely see it unfair to you to getting an animal I was unaware was in such bad condition

On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

Here is the female with the eye problem (first 3 pictures) and the female with the weight/dehydration problem (last 4 pictures)

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:32:45 -0700

Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

whats your paypal so i can send you 40?

On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Miles Sundher <[email protected]> wrote:

all I have right now is $40 as I used the money to pay back some people I will paypal you 40.00 to go towards the vet bill, I am sorry about your standards I dont want to put any blame on the breeder I got them from but they have been in the same conditions to my knowledge since I recieved them.


On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

I am not going to argue with you about semantics on pricing, I paid a lot of money only to get two unhealthy chameleons according to my standards, one is an easier fix just supplementing and fattening up, but the other has an eye infection and you didn't even know that she had it! The females were NOT in good health in your care because a chameleon can not become underweight and another can not develop an eye infect over 10 hours in shipping transit.

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 18:43:01 -0700

Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

tecnically you got a very good price on females I understand your consern though, please let me know if theres anythign I can do as both females have been very healthy for me.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 5:18 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

In my experience when I get an unhealthy animal it needs to be taken to the vet, so I would rather do it sooner than later so I can make sure she doesn't die. I am dissappointed to say the least because I payed premium prices for the ambanja trio and the 2 females are not in good condition.
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From: Miles Sundher <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:41:03 -0700
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe

...... well I have medication from my local vet friend so I wish you would have held off on that cuz I could have saved you the visit.


On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 4:38 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

I already took her to the vet and got the correct medication, the whole visit cost $56
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From: Miles Sundher <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:14:10 -0700
To: Trevor Rizzuto<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: RB BB Ambilobe

female 2 has an eye infection??????? woah I thought it was just shedding so it must be really recent....... anyway female 1 was sold to me by chameleoncompany full grown she was my first female, She layed an infertile retained clutch 2 weeks ago which might affect lack in weight though. Female 1 is from willypete and female 2 is hannibal. sorry for not writing that. what should we do about the eye infection? if need be I can send you teramycin

On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Trevor Rizzuto <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey Miles, I got the package. A couple questions, first of all which bloodline is which. (Ambanja female #1 and Ambanja female #2) Also how long has #1 been under weight, and how long has #2 had an eye infection?

Trevor



The messages start from the bottom and go up. ALSO WE DID HAVE MULTIPLE PHONE CONVERSATIONS

Were these CB or WC? Were they flipped? Where/when did Miles acquire them? How old did Miles represent them to be?

Miles, if you couldn't tell these females were ill, you really need to back away from chams. It's clear from the photos - the eyes say it all on both females. Enlarged turrets and sunken turrets. Eyes so badly sunken do not happen in a week's time. Illness/improper husbandry generally manifests itself first in the eyes and limbs of chameleons. That cham suffered.

That the buyer took them to the vet the day (or very soon) after he received them tells me he knew unhealthy chams when he saw them. It tells me you either neglected them or knew they were sick and just wanted to unload them before they died in your care.

If you don't know chameleon basics ("yes I am new to the hobby and was unaware I was selling you ill animals"), then perhaps you are not properly caring for them in the first place and need to educate yourself before you start selling. Ignorance is no excuse for an animal's suffering.

There are plenty of reputable chameleon sources. Breeders who practice proper husbandry and have years of doing so. Ambilobe's and Ambanja's are not uncommon, so there's no reason to buy from someone only 3-4 months into the hobby.

It's good you reimbursed Trevor, Miles. Not good those chams died so soon after he received them.

Yeah, Trevor ... copy/paste and include headers, please.

Were these CB or WC? Were they flipped? Where/when did Miles acquire them? How old did Miles represent them to be?

Click to expand...

Never mind ... got those answers above before I posted

Yeah ... Miles, those e-mails aren't do you any favors, bud. With or without a necro being posted.

I have the emails as well and trevor when I was on the phone with you and I payed you for the vet and the first female we agreed that I had payed you what was nessicary to make it right at that point it was clear that you no longer even wanted anything to do with me anymore and that the 190.00 refund was enough. I dont have record of this because you spoke to me over the phone about it so its just my word against yours. I went through all the emails I have and cant find anything stating about the refunds as I believe we did all that over the phone.

I don't want to further tarnish his reputation, I don't like this situation, I really didn't even want to post e-mail because I don't want to come across like I have it out for him. Even with a bad experience with him I don't want to do all this, all I want is reimbursement of the original price. I understand it is making people aware so they don't have the same situation with him, but this feels like overkill and I don't want that.