AN INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE ON BALL PRICING AND THE MARKET

Hey guys,

I ran across this article written by Colin Weaver on another forum and thought it gave a rather insightful look into ball python pricing and how one should go about it in different situations. It isn't a long article and you don't have to agree with his opinion but if you care about the future market and this hobby I think it's something that should be read and your own opinion can be formed thereafter. It may have already been posted here at some point but here goes.

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2009/04/why-were-idiots-for-using-kingsnakecom-to-price-animals/

Interesting article, but there is no way that people will read that and change. There are too many people thinking individually for that to happen. Also, something is only worth what you are willing to pay. If there are tons of people selling snakes at a price, that is what that "something" is worth, no matter if its a snake or an apple. Maybe these BP's are only worth what these sellers are charging. You don't see this happen with other products; cars, houses, etc...

One seller DOESN'T ruin it for all in any other market. If some guy sold a 30,000 dollar Mercedes for 15,000 there is no way in hell the rest of the others will follow. That just doesn't happen. I think the author of the article is just spewing some crazy words to market his new website.

Problem is, that website never materialized.

To show how out-of-date that article is, he lists Wysocki as a reputable guy.

I agree, we'll never get everyone to come together. Sure it'd be nice, but we're dealing with humans here.

I can see where you are coming from and you are entitled to your opinion. In my mind though, Mercedes aren't driven by the same type of market as ball pythons. Mercedes themselves and their competitors SET those prices, the luxury line for vehicles, which seems to be pretty stable if not increasing. They aren't posted on websites as their main form of entrance to the market and the individuals selling them aren't "creating" these cars as they would be ball pythons, Mercedes them-self is and sells these cars off to dealerships. Now if one was to sell a used mercedes for an undervalued price, say below blue book value on a site like craigslist wouldn't that tend to have some sort of effect on someone else selling the exact same sort of vehicle??

Shadera said:

Problem is, that website never materialized.

To show how out-of-date that article is, he lists Wysocki as a reputable guy.

I agree, we'll never get everyone to come together. Sure it'd be nice, but we're dealing with humans here.

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I agree with you guys in that sense, to me, the most valuable part of it is at the end where he describes different scenarios of selling, i.e. to friends or wholesaling...There will never be a time where everyone bands together like that but in my mind it can't hurt to give a different take on the situation to a few.

Shadera said:

Problem is, that website never materialized.

To show how out-of-date that article is, he lists Wysocki as a reputable guy.

I agree, we'll never get everyone to come together. Sure it'd be nice, but we're dealing with humans here.

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When I wrote that article Adam was still worthy of his reputation. The way he chose to exit this business was ...unfortunate and disappointing ...to say the least.

Here is more perspective for people interested in reading how I feel about this topic:

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2010/03/wholesale-or-is-it-whoresale-pricing/

I was looking forward to making a stop at Colin's table with a pocket full of cash Saturday...but I was hoping for more than 10% off, lol.

Good job Colin, and Harold for posting it. I personally am one of those people who saves up until I have the money to buy the cool/expensive snake and it sickens me that a year later (before I can even breed mine) the price have dropped so much that it seems as if I was ripped off. I hate it when I see those ads saying "sick, lost job, hurt, etc...". While these things may be true, and I'm sorry if they are, but now you're hurting everyone else whose hard work in now worth much less than before you posted that. I hope everyone at least thinks after they read this article.

ColinWeaver said:

When I wrote that article Adam was still worthy of his reputation. The way he chose to exit this business was ...unfortunate and disappointing ...to say the least.

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I was just trying to point out how long that article has been circulating, and how much non-effect it's had unfortunately. Shame, there are some great thoughts in there.

Thanks for the link on the wholesale one. I've always enjoyed the one on the market, and after being offered less than 25% of a group's worth by several "wholesale buyers" (not low end animals by any means) and being told that's wholesale I'm interested in seeing what you've got to say on the matter.

It's apples and oranges, but back when I was driving truck over the road, the other truckers were always complaining about this or that. There was constant talk of shutting down to get what we wanted, but when it came right down to it only a few were willing to put their money where their mouths were and those of us who did weren't enough to get anything changed. Had any amount of us been able to follow through, we'd have been able to make some changes. This ball python thing is kinda similar in that respect. If we can just get folks to stick together.. Surely people would like to get more for their animals if they can?

There are a lot of people that would like to get more for their animals, and don't like seeing people actively causing them to lose "value"...but there are also a lot of people for whom undercutting the competition is the prime marketing strategy. There are too many people producing things just because they can - often reducing quality in the process - and reducing prices because they can't, or don't want to, hold onto them.

(I'd better shut up til after the show...I'm going to talk myself right out of the price I want )

Seriously, though, Colin has made some very good points (in both "posts")...and the one on wholesale pricing, in particular. I can remember discussing wholesaling with Deborah once upon a time, and her commenting that it didn't make sense for her to wholesale animals so somebody else could sell them for a lower price. Her point was that if her animals were going to be sold for less, she would be the one to make the reduction...that way, she was the one making the money for her efforts. Sadly, as Colin pointed out, that still continues the spiral - but I'll maintain that it isn't really all that different from leaving the advertised price elevated, but accepting significantly lower offers. now I did it....guess I'll just be looking at the show

Very good reads and makes a whole lot of sense and I agree whole heatedly of course that's probably why my rack is overflowing to the point I'm building a new one!!! Not that I'm complaining That just means my hold backs my change 3-10 more times before I let anything go.

In my opinion these snakes are worth what you can get for them...I dont agree with the guy that advertises at lower prices and such...but takeing someones offer is apart of the game...you either say yes or no...some snakes I will hold onto...others I will wholesale them because there are just too many mouths to feed...I just picked up 2 baby racks so now I have space for all of my babies that are coming in...so I can hold onto more if needed...in the end...they are a collectible hobby for most....and if you cant get something at the right price you wait...when I buy or trade I always take into consideration what the priced rop will be from year to year...this hobby is pure capitalism at its best...

Some truly wise statements have been made, but there is one problem; While everyone wants to get more for their own snakes, they all want to pay less when buying your snake. As far as price drops, they are quite extreme from year to year and that is something to be taken into account. If you take a morph that has dropped significantly in price since you purchased it and pair it with even a simple morph (somtimes as simple as a pastel) then the combos you get are more times then not worth equal or more then the original animal. One simply way to battle depriciation is to continually step your game up. As more and more people get into this hobby, while at the same time it is becoming eaier and easier to aquire, sell, and wholesale these animals; the prices will drop. If you combine a subpar economy with more supply and less demand the price will fall, simple economics. So try as we might to hold onto the 6 digit figures these animals commanded in the days gone by, it is a plan destined for failure.

I agree...this economy sucks...often times you will get better "value" on trades than on actually cost...and many people refuse to trade...

Very true it is sad in a way because sometimes the same people that are belittling the little guy for trying to get a turn over are part of the problem. No offense Colin or anyone else everyone is in it for a reason. But to spin off what Colin said in his article about calling the big breeder to get a price for your animals is all well and good but look at there available page and offer to trade a like for like $ figure (I do know of 1 that says he does but can not confirm) and they would laugh you off the phone. Even if you were to say offer a big breeder say a albino spider ball male and the rest of your clutches hatchlings say 2 spider het albino female and 1.3 het albinos you most likely would not get the value of the albino spider. My best guess would be wholesale at best pricing and that crappy wholesale price at that. Where as they very well could help everyone out including themselves by not letting someone resort to selling them for next to nothing.

I'm not saying this is every breeder out there and I'm not pointing fingers but it's not hard to spin this in every way. But it would be very hard for a small breeder to say hang on to 15-20 hets when they could all but give them away on the net at the same time as selling say 20 het alb for 25$ that's $500 in sales and lets say on average $1 a week for 12 weeks ea on feeders until you sell them for 45 is that extra 8 dollars each going to make it a better value sale? Heating cleaning time ect.

But the same goes for the big breeder they don't want 20 more hets because they need to feed them clean them heat them take up space and try to sell them. Lets say it's 10 pairs that the breeder could sell for 100 a pair and they gave you 40 in trade value a pair 40% ack2:but probably very fair for the little guy) but they feed them for 6 weeks to make sure they are all healthy (as they don't want a black eye) heat them lets say that cost is about 20$ they made the same amount as you and that's just if those snakes everyone is selling fly off the shelf the longer they are stuck with them the further the margin drops until that trade cost them money.

Again not pointing fingers this can be twisted 1000 ways someone can even make the flipper look good if they try.

Sorry for the rant.

We Are All Part Of the Problem And Only We Can Be Part Of The Solution Big To Small No Matter What It Should Be About The Animals First Not The $

hhmoore said:

Seriously, though, Colin has made some very good points (in both "posts")...and the one on wholesale pricing, in particular. I can remember discussing wholesaling with Deborah once upon a time, and her commenting that it didn't make sense for her to wholesale animals so somebody else could sell them for a lower price. Her point was that if her animals were going to be sold for less, she would be the one to make the reduction...that way, she was the one making the money for her efforts. Sadly, as Colin pointed out, that still continues the spiral - but I'll maintain that it isn't really all that different from leaving the advertised price elevated, but accepting significantly lower offers. now I did it....guess I'll just be looking at the show

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I remember this Return on Investment (ROI) conversation... We were at a Hamburg show just outside the first door.

It still makes no sense from the moral perspective. Right now, we have the bigger breeders (or whoever) screaming that the little people are ruining prices. The reality is, THEY (bigger breeders) are the one reducing the prices that they set for themselves. They sell off their surplus, second-rate, and culls to Wholesellers at reduced prices so low that the buyer may only need to raise his own price a few dollars in order to make a profit. Therefore, the lower prices get passed to the consumers, who in turn charge a bit more than they paid...and so it goes.

The cycle that is currently set up is unrealistic; it does not have any hope of succeeding on a purely business scale where the dream of stable prices resides.

*another off-shoot of that conversation was dumping the "ugly Pastels" on the market..Who does the most wholeselling? What animals are they usually marking for wholesale? Bottom line (imo) was to eliminate the middle man, honestly reduce the prices oneself, and one would become much closer to a realistic price that more of the community would be willing to adopt. This would be one of the first steps in establishing a system for creating a fair "Market Value" and more people may be willing to agree...the second step would be creating a form of policing that allows fair market pricing enforcing.


**I hope this made sense!

*corrections in bold:

deborahbroadus said:

I remember this Return on Investment (ROI) conversation... We were at a Hamburg show just outside the first door.

It still makes no sense from the moral perspective or business. Right now, we have the bigger breeders (or whoever) screaming that the little people are ruining prices. The reality is, THEY (bigger breeders) are the one reducing the prices that they set for themselves. They sell off their surplus, second-rate, and culls to Wholesellers at reduced prices so low that the buyer may only need to raise his own price a few dollars in order to make a profit. Therefore, the lower prices get passed to the consumers, who in turn charge a bit more than they paid...and so it goes. The need not to let people know that one is reducing their own prices has driving some into mental denial that this is exactly what is happening with wholesale. So the small breeder gets the brunt of the "created" animosity for situations set up beforehand
IMO, the cycle that is currently set up is unrealistic; it does not have any hope of succeeding on a purely business scale where the dream of stable prices resides.

*another off-shoot of that conversation was dumping the "ugly Pastels" on the market..Who does the most wholeselling? What animals are they usually marking for wholesale? Bottom line (imo) was to eliminate the middle man, honestly reduce the prices oneself, and one would become much closer to a realistic price that more of the community would be willing to adopt. This would be one of the first steps in establishing a system for creating a fair "Market Value" and more people may be willing to agree...the second step would be creating a form of policing that allows fair market pricing enforcing.


**I hope this made sense!

Click to expand...

Very true Deb I wasn't going to bring up the 25% but that's about right and not just from the flipper unfortunately the big breeders offers seems to be about the same for your trades to 25% for your stuff wholesale for what you might want from them. Most likely if its hets low end morphs I'm speculating hear that they would get shipped of to a flipper at 50% right through the door and they take 25% for opening a box putting a little tape back on it coverup the label with a new one and gone. Like I said it can be flipped (no pun intended) 1000+ ways.

Your point is well taken hear again I will say no offense to anyone but look at animal A (to not look like I'm calling anyone out because I'm not I think most can figure it out) its only the same people selling those or a few more and the market has come down over 80% in the last 3-4 years from 100k to under 20k (same breeder) can you blame it on the little guy.

How about toffee they are going down like the titanic with the toffee albino now out there (which I'm sure some wish it was still in the closet that it could be done). The little guys had little to no chance at having a affect on that market but since the compatibility with albino I have already heard how the small breeders are going to ruin the genetics on the toffees trying to make a buck. I laugh because the same people were going to do it on the sly and make 500k bucks. I would say the little guy has had 0 to very limited affect on either of these markets. Sorry to much animal x-z for this one no disrespect still a great animal IMO.

I know of very few breeders who wouldn't use the same logic I mean how long can you sell animals for 100K your target market has to come down or you would be feeding a lot of snakes.



Rant lol