Info I guess it's time to move to the boi.Witblitz Dragons from South Africa

I am continuing the thread here. I am aware of the possibility of serious issues with some very expensive dragons and the poor ethic surrounding their breeding and marketing. I feel this mutation was prematurely sold before knowing there were any kinks. After being made aware of the issues the breeder ignored them and kept them secret. I am not personally involved in any monitary exchange but these issues are sort of common knowledge. Please refer to the last few pages of this thread and proceed with comments.Like I said this is an info thread and I know I sure would like to know if there were any (no matter how "small") problems involved with an animal I was going to drop thousands of dollars on

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164685&page=18

I brought up the issues to the breeder and he basically called me a liar and said i din't know squat. Then he posted these emails from someone telling him about the exact problems I was refering to.So really I was not lying and he knew all along what I ws talking about. here are the emails from his post that were from one of his customers about serious problems that Jaques just brushes away and makes poor excuses for.

On 10 May 2010 (yes a full year later!) Josh said: "The dragons are doing well. The witblits are a little bit slow growing but steady. I think that two of the male witblits are blind in one eye. They use one side of their head too see and catch food. These things are to be expected with new morphs. I think after some outcrossing, they will be in the right direction. I bred two of the male witblits so far, and the yellow male you sent extra. Got babies already from the yellow male, the witblits babies should hatch in about a month or so."
So after a year he thought that they might be blind. This I cannot argue with as only he would know. Perhaps if these dragons wasted away then the blindness was the cause? Only a veterinarian would be able to tell. The reasons for blindness are endless and the problem is unlikely morph related. Josh also thought they grow slow. This he knew would be the case as i told him all these things over the phone long before he bought them in 2009.

Josh in June 2010: " Have you seen any black spotting on your witblits dragons? One of them i got from you is starting to develop clusters and spots of jet black pigment only on the top part of his body. I originally thought he had a fungus but i would have seen it on his belly too. The silverback also has a black spot on his back that has been there since I got him. I will send you some pics later next week. Pretty weird stuff."
So almost a year and a half after he bought them from me he noticed a black spot on the Witblits. But also on the Silverback. The dragon in his last post on this thread is the dragon he was referring to. The cause of these 'spots' could be anything; from infection, cancer, NORMAL pigment in abnormal places. Josh sent me a pic of the dragon early on in the course of this 'problem'. Just a while after that I noticed a small spot in one of our juveniles. For the fear of it being something lethal I euthanized the dragon and sent the lesion to the pathologists. The report came back as NORMAL PIGMENTATION! Obviously a dark spot on a pale dragons appears abnormal but in reality the 'problem' was normal. Whether the spot on our dragon was in fact the same lesion as the one on Josh's will never be known.

5 Jul 2010: "Hi, I just hatched a clutch from one of your witblits males(spotted one). All the babies are normal(except half are leatherback)." So the 'sick' spotted male still reproduced. Guys a sick animal cannot reproduce. Fertility is one of the first things to go down the drain with sick animals. This animal clearly was not sick. Not saying he didn't have a 'problem'.

14 Sep 2010: "I may scratch the whole witblits project all together and focus on the silverback line. I have lost 2 out of the 3 witblits. They get to sub-adult size, then dramatically lose weight, then respiratory problems start to take over. The last one is starting to look thin."
Now this came to me as a real shock. After all the good statements from Josh and how well they were breeding I couldn't believe this.

So it seems that two of the three Witblits that Josh bought from us did die! One with the skin 'problem' and one with respiratory problems. Neither of these two problems can be linked to the Witblits morph per se. Any dragon could succumb to respiratory problems.

btmexotics said:

I brought up the issues to the breeder and he basically called me a liar and said i din't know squat. Then he posted these emails from someone telling him about the exact problems I was refering to.

Josh said:
I think that two of the male witblits are blind in one eye. They use one side of their head too see and catch food. These things are to be expected with new morphs.

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Perhaps I should ask in the discussion thread, rather than here, but I am curious. I'm not a breeder, but this doesn't sound kosher. Are defects such as blindness really expected when developing a new morph?

The cause of these 'spots' could be anything; from infection, cancer, NORMAL pigment in abnormal places. Josh sent me a pic of the dragon early on in the course of this 'problem'. Just a while after that I noticed a small spot in one of our juveniles. For the fear of it being something lethal I euthanized the dragon and sent the lesion to the pathologists. The report came back as NORMAL PIGMENTATION! Obviously a dark spot on a pale dragons appears abnormal but in reality the 'problem' was normal.

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Could you share pictures of the lesion on your juvenile as well as the pathology report?

OK this topic has reached an ugly state. Jay keeps saying that the more I say the more it proves my guilt. If I just back out then others would say and think the same.

I find the discussion totally fair and it is good that everyone involved adds so the morph can benefit from it in the long run.

I do find Jays comment about "the poor ethic surrounding their breeding" unfair. Jay keeps on stating that we are inbreeding our dragons where in fact we are doing the exact opposite. We have added unrelated animals to the program every year and this is what is called outcrossing.

So lets discuss the so called problems here and leave the breeding as this is not an issue.

The reason for me posting those previous discussions was to show that I have nothing to hide.

I have also sent out a 'survey' to everyone that bought Witblits dragons from us. The topics they need to comment on is basically the list of 11 things Josh mentioned.

Just to correct Josh. We have never sold to a Marko from Ghost Dragons but to Mikkel from Ghost Dragons.

Mikkel kas never mentioned anything to me about his dragon that died. I find it extremely strange that someone would lose a 5k dragon and not mention it to the breeder.

Sushi unfortunately I don't have a path report. It has been some time but perhaps the lab still has a copy. I will find out. I might have a picture somewhere. I will search my files. The spot was about 2mm diameter on the knee of the dragon. It looked like a 'normal' black spot that you would typically find on a normal bearded dragon morph.
Josh my reference to 'black spot disease' was not a warning to Witblits owners/buyers. It was merely to help you in finding a cause of the 'spots' on your witblits. Black spot disease is a lay term for describing an infectious cause of blackening skin. It is most often associated with bacteria and fungi. It is quite a common skin ailment in reptiles and is a very important differantial to rule out when dealing with black/dark spots on reptiles. What was done to rule out this problem in your witblits Josh?

witblits said:

So lets discuss the so called problems here

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witblits said:

We have never sold a sick animal! This is a promise and a guarantee!

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Speaking of guarantee, I took a quick look at your site and could not find your TOS. Could you please point it out?

post number #181 from the customer in this thread http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164685&page=19

this is directed to the breeder from an actual customer,i believe the first person to buy the morph. now Jaques Odell just makes excuses for everything.Josh Dovenbarger is one of the top breeded dragon breeders in the world.I can assure you that his husbandry is not to blame. Maybe one dragon dead is just luck but all three?And other people too? Who cares what the name(Marco,mirko doesn't matter) of the owner of ghost dragons is.His dragon is dead too.And you said yourself Jaques that one of your animals got the black spots.You say you killed it to have it checked out.they could have checked it alive.You say it was fine but you didn't really let the thing grow up to see if it was going to live a healthy life or die like others once it got to a certain size.And you conveniently don't have the report from the "pathologist" that clears the animal. You say you guarantee yoour animals Jaques odell but whenever people have problems you say "death is inevitable" and "bad luck" oh and "these issues are common" .Wow great guarantee on your $5000.00 bearded dragons. When are you going to accept some responsibility and stop deflecting and blaming everyone else. You did not handle the progression of your new morph ethically.You should have held on to them and worked out any potential issues through a generation of breeding, that's what all of us responsible breeders do. The money comes in due time,you were in a rush and skipped crucial steps and now it is blowing up on you.


Jaques,

"He bought them in from us in May 2009"

Your time line is all screwed up. I imported your animals in october 2010.

"Jay that is 7 months later and no issues"

two months later

"I noticed a small spot in one of our juveniles. For the fear of it being something lethal I euthanized the dragon and sent the lesion to the pathologists. The report came back as NORMAL PIGMENTATION!"

If it were normal, why are you telling some people to be careful of the"black spot disease" with the witblits.

"So the 'sick' spotted male still reproduced. "

reproduced BEFORE i noticed the spots

"One with the skin 'problem' and one with respiratory problems. Neither of these two problems can be linked to the Witblits morph per se"

really think about this statement. Only your dragon developed the spots. Only your dragons had respiratory problems.

"infertility"

yes your dragons had serious fertility issues. Both of the male witblits had very short hemipenes, like stumps. The one that eventually bred after numerous tries still couldn't fertilize an entire clutch(probably from having such short hemipenes). The third under the dachiu's care was also having the exact same problems.


I got one of your witblits to breed and the yellow male. Shortly after that i noticed black spotting developing on one of your dragons. This is when i contacted you. At first, I thought it was paradox, but it later developed into a bleeding, cracking, raised scale looking skin cancer. It only developed on the top part of it's body, the underside was completely free of it. The dragons were partially blind. They also acted lanky/goofy when they walked around. The third witblits was sent to rob and vickie. They experienced the same problem with theirs, minus the black patches. This animal had continous respiratory issues, and was never able to breed. Shortly after the black spotting developed on my witblits, they started to lose weight and waste away very quickly. They also both came down with respiratory issues. This is all a sign of weakness. I very very rarely have respiratory issues with any other of my dragons.

The last time i contacted you I said to you that you should grow up all your dragons and see what is going on with them because others are not going to take it as easy as I have. This is also when I mentioned that I will probably scrap the whole project. I ended up doing so because my hets came from that back spotted male. I later ended up starting off over again with hets from another breeder.

You talk to marco from ghost dragons? He spent 5k on one of your dragons and it died. He never got any sort of replacement/refund. Have you REALLY spoken to any of the others who purchased from you? I call b.s. on your statements.

1). fertility issues/short hemipenes
2). very lean(teardrop shape) body structure
3). skin issues
4). lanky/goofy walk
5). partial blindness
6). eggs taking longer than normal to hatch(weakness)
7). wasting away
8). very slow growth
9). upper respiratory problems
10). small adult size
11). eggs taking longer than normal to hatch(weakness)

That makes 10 Jaques

Josh

I have never questioned Josh's husbandry. I think he is an exceptional breeder and obviously a great person (and perhaps in this case he was to good a person).

My question is: why did he only tell me about the death of the two dragons long after they died? Surely if he felt strongly that i was to blame he would have. Why did he not have these '5k' (and btw this is not what he paid) animals checked by a veterinarian?

I agree Jay. We did sell these animals off way to early! But unfortunately I had to.

Josh approached me and made me a good offer. I had heard good things of him and decided he was the right first buyer. I spent some time on the phone talking to Josh. He asked me everything about the morph. I told him everything I knew. We knew very little about the morph at that stage! Josh knew we knew vey litlle. He also knew the history of the dragons in SA. He knew we selected smaller dragons over (the back then) 7 years that we have been breeding them. Josh was thus fully aware of all the negatives (I say all but there wasn't many) and from his years of experience in the industry I am sure he knew the risk involved in buying a new morph. Josh took the risk to buy in the Silverbacks, and just recently risked buying the Zeros. The say risk=reward right. As for the money. Josh made the offer and from there on we sticked to the price. In fact the price climbed as the market increased. I would easily sell them for 200$ as that is much more than the R200 they would go for in SA. That would be unfair towards all the other buyers as they have invested alot in them. Josh had no option to the dragons he bought. There were only three males available and that was what he got. If I recall correctly we had 5 males at that stage. Blits was one of them. He was the real white male. No way I was going to sell him. I then kept back the biggest male for myself. For obvious reasons. Josh got the other three. At some stage there was a story going that I sent him only the weak males I had. That wasn't the case. I sent him the only three after I made my pick.

Lucille what is TOS?

witblits said:

Lucille what is TOS?

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Your terms of service. TOS often include payment methods, deposit requirements, refund info, guarantees and requirements for guarantees, shipping methods, etc.

Thanks Lucille (my first language is not english so I don't know all the abreviations...)

You will find that sort of info on our 'shipping' page: http://www.witblitsdragons.com/index_files/Page485.htm

Payment method is discussed with the client when we talk. So is the shipping method. I discuss all these things with the client when they enquire about the dragons. Up to this point we have no guarantee. The buyers were/are fully aware of that since that is almost always one of the first questions they ask. Alot of clients are detered by there being no guarantee. We are considering giving some sort of guarantee. I have asked the last 4 buyers what they would expect from an international import. Once we finalize something I will add it to our shipping page. All the dragons that are exported have to been cleared by a veterinarian. Thus they all have to be healthy on the day of export. The last client asked 'so what if the dragons die soon after the yarrive?'. I told him that despite the fact that we don't have a guarantee I am a seasonable man and if the problem was at our end then I will refund him. We are thinking of putting something like this permanent in place.

As for breeder/client honesty; just about three days ago I missed out on a sale of over 5000$ because I was honest! The client enquired about the size and growth. He was looking for big dragons. I told him to look at something like leucistics instead since the witblits would not grow to that size. If it was all about the money (as some think it is) to me then I could have lied about their size, age and so on.

Lucille what is the standard TOS for most international traders? If you know then please PM it to me. Thanks (don't share it here is this space is reserved to make Jacques the bad guy...)

Can anyone please upload photographs of healthy or unhealthy wiblits, particularly in regards to small adult size, strange teardrop shape, and the "black spot disease" that were mentioned in the other thread? I searched for a while and found nothing.

witblits said:

Alot of clients are detered by there being no guarantee.

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I can understand that, especially since it seems that your dragons can be very expensive.

witblits said:

My question is: why did he only tell me about the death of the two dragons long after they died?

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If there is no guarantee and you do not stand behind your dragons, what do your clients have to gain by reporting a death?

Lucille said:

If there is no guarantee and you do not stand behind your dragons, what do your clients have to gain by reporting a death?

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Everyone interested in morphs of this species would gain from it, actually.

Jay the Turtleman said:

Everyone interested in morphs of this species would gain from it, actually.

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You are right.

"Everyone interested in morphs of this species would gain from it, actually."

Well said other Jay!

A large-scale chicken farmer has about 20 000 chickens per house. Every single death gets reported. Not because of the financial loss of an individual chicken, but due to the possible loss of an entire house. It is the same principle with all farming/breeding enterprises.

In all fairness, if I was made aware of the problem sooner then I could have reacted. I was under the impression that all our dragons all over the world were doing great. According to Jay this is not the case.

Snowgyre and everyone else; the topic of the 'black spotted disease' must not be misunderstood. 'Black spotted disease' is a lay term used to describe a range of skin ailments causing darkening/blackening of the skin. The most common causes are bacterial and fungal (also called 'black fungus disease, not to be confused by yellow fungus disease) infections. The most common origin of these germs are from the feaces and given the silly nature of bearded dragons to run through their own stools the yare quite prone to these infections. These lesions start out as small spots and if left untreated will spread and increase in size. They can sometimes become ulcerative, bleed, crack etc depending really on the type of 'germ' involved. The lesions on the witblits that Josh had started of as typical 'black spot disease'. Given the fact that one of his Silverbacks also had a black spot around that time made 'black spot disease' the most likley cause of the lesions due to its contagious/infectious ability. Josh has not yet mentioned whether he took the witblits and/or silverback to a veterinarian and treated them. Assuming he did (as I think would be the reasonable thing for a 5k animal) and looking at the response (ie not getting better) one can safely assume that the spots were not caused by 'black spot disease' by by something else. The second most likely cause would be chromatosis - the abnormal development in pigment. 3rd on my list would be cancer. Thereafter one can look at rare disorders like auto-immune disease etc.

Josh what type of workup did they do on this dragon?
Do you still have it (preserved in formalin)? I would pay for a pathologist to have a look at it. This will give us many answers.

"in all fairness, if I was made aware of the problem sooner then I could have reacted. I was under the impression that all our dragons all over the world were doing great. According to Jay this is not the case."

This is a flat out lie. Jaques was made aware of the problem long ago. Hes seen the pics. I told him at the time he should grow up his dragons and see what is going on with them, because others will not take this as easy as I have. Jaques got defensive, ignored my advise, and continued to sell his witblits. I had no choice but to make this public.

These are pics showing the progression. I have never seen this before in any dragon except for this animal. As I stated before, whatever was going on with this dragon only occured on the top(patternless) part of it's body. The underside was free of any of it.

Josh

I have obtained a copy of the email Jaques(aka witblitz dragons) has sent to his customers(other than Josh). Here it is. He claims he makes great money in his profession and doesn't need to make a living selling reptiles but here he tells people "i was desperate and needed cash" but don't worry your animals are perfectly fine. He basically says don't worry you guys are fine,I only screwed Josh over with crappy animals. He also deflects blame. Jaques was made aware of the issues well before the death of the first dragon so why would he need to be made aware of it's death? Looking at his reactions one can see why there is no point reasoning with Mr. odell. I was one of the first people to see witblitz outside of South Africa I also have followed the progress of the morph. So everytime I am told I don't know what I am talking about by Jaques,how come it comes to be that I know exactly what I am talking about. Now he is in full manipulative,damage control. Here is the email

Best Witblits Dragons client

It has come to our attention that one of the clients have experienced some issues with the Witblits patternless morph.

Two patternless dragons died. The cause of death is unknown but one suffered a skin condition and the other had respiratory problems. Please follow the heated discussion on faunaclassifieds. (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164685&page=19.)

We have been aware of these problems but never took much note of it as we firmly believe the problems were/are not a direct problem of Witblits. There is no doubt that the issues involved are indeed problematic. But to say Witblits is riddled with these issues is a bit far fetched. Any dragon can get a skin problem (be it cancer/infection etc) or a respiratory problem.

Please take part in the discussions. Whether you have positive and/or negative opinions please add them to the discussions. I realise our (Witblits Dragons and myself as a breeder) reputation is greatly at risk because of some of the comments. So be it. I am not so worried about our reputation but I am greatly concerned about the morph. That is the most important issue. The animals. We need to do what is best for them. And in order to do the best for the morph we need to be honest and open. The forum is a good place to discuss this.

There is also a BOI that one of the members started. I am sure he has a personal issue about Witblits or me as he is constantly referring to our (and also thus your) dragons as in bred runts. I believe our breeding policy is sound.

The dragons that apparently had the problems were from our very first clutch (pairing between Rum x Kahlua). The dragons were sold more out of desperation than out of will. It was not our plan to sell dragons so early on in the project but we needed funds. We got a good offer from the buyer. I am in no way saying those dragons were perfect nut they were most definately healthy when I sold them. I am sure all of you can testify that the dragons you received were in fact healthy. I can however assure you the dragons you bought are also 3 generations down the line and are more outcrossed than the ones that died.

Please take part in the discussion and if you have any questions please ask me, in private email or on the forum.

I would then also like to take this opportunity to figure a way in how we can deal with such issues in the future. Please email me your suggestions in private (not over the forum).

The dragons in question died and the breeder only notified me long afterwards. Perhaps we could have learned more from their death if he acted promptly.

Due to the nature of live animals it is impossible to give a limitless guarantee right? That is what insurance is for. My own breeding stock is insured for this very reason. Death is inevitable. All dragons will die at some stage.
My question is what sort of guarantee would you expect from me as a breeder if I sell 5k dragons internationally? Live arrival? 2 weeks?

Secondly how should we go about if one of your dragons should die several months after delivery? Surely it can't be might fault. But understandably you will feel this way. Should we put a Standard Operating Procedure in place like; dragon dies, buyer has to get the dead dragon to the vet on the same day, vet has to send dragon of to pathologist. If a diagnosis is made that shows a problem that started at the breeder then a part can be refunded. If the problem occurred at the owner then no refund will be made. Even though I think this is crazy I will go as far to show how much confidence we have in the morph. Then there is also the fact that the dragon should at least have been to the vet if it was sick right?

The dragons that died had no history of veterinary visits so no diagnosis was made. It makes it real hard for me to know what to do.

The buyer who's dragons died is a respected breeder and a good person. I have no issues with him. I think he should have handled it slightly different though. The person responsible for fuelling the thread with negative comments has no experience with witblits dragons. A lot of the problems he mentioned is based on what he heard.

I mail is not intended to scare you but to hopefully set up a good action plan should something go wrong.

I hope to hear from you soon!

Regards
Jacques

Problems with new morphs sometimes take a while to manifest themselves.Noone is faulting you for not knowing.My issue is what you did after you were put on notice that there were issues. You called me a liar when I said your animals were riddled with issues.You said there were no issues period. You in fact were not telling the truth.

Jacques.
Your e-mail sent out is somewhat if not completely pathetic. Calling out for backing is so sad. If your customers were happy with their dealings with you they would have posted in your favour. Do you really think that anyone involved with dragons is not following this "issue?" You need to give your head a shake and realize the shit YOU have caused.
Sub par animals or genetically inferior specimens should not have hit the market. Period. Your e-mail `showed this. They were released way to soon and others suffered because of it.
This e-mail shows how undeminded you are/were!

witblits said:

In all fairness, if I was made aware of the problem sooner then I could have reacted. I was under the impression that all our dragons all over the world were doing great.

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btmexotics said:

I have obtained a copy of the email Jaques(aka witblitz dragons) has sent to his customers(other than Josh). Here it is.

Best Witblits Dragons client
It has come to our attention that one of the clients have experienced some issues with the Witblits patternless morph.
We have been aware of these problems but never took much note of it

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Jacques has been caught in a lie here. I would not trust him not to edit any results of a survey he allegedly mailed to buyers.

If I was a potential buyer at this point, I might not choose to spend thousands

witblits said:

Hi. We sell the Witblits (patternless) for between 3500 and 4000$.

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on critters some of which are apparently experiencing partial blindness, skin conditions, and more, from a breeder who does not guarantee his stock

witblits said:

Up to this point we have no guarantee.

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As an owner of Whitblits, I really can not say I am surprised at the masking of issues with a new morph.

This type of "shielding" issues goes on across other species and other breeders as well. There is a high amount of financial risk when working with new morphs, but I feel you should be able to qualify the risk you are taking through presentation of all known issues.

Thanks to Josh for sharing the pictures and information.

Fingers crossed that those of us currently working with later generations can add some positive news in the future.