Questioning Chris Steele auction on ReptiBid

I did not take the time to look for rules about posting links so I will not do that here. However here is the Q&A that has been posted so far on an auction for a "0.1 MOTLEY ANERY CORN ADULT" on ReptiBid, seller is Chris Steele. Auction # 1082691758
The bold type is what was posted by me, Traci.

Question about this item from (buyer): Tsthompson
Post on: Fri Apr 09, 10:36 AM
How long have you owned? Was she cooled?

Response on this item from (seller): Chrissteelee
Post on: Fri Apr 09, 03:56 PM
I have had it over two months and as far as I know (I was told) it was cooled.

Sorry for taking so long JMW17, the companies rate calculator was down. It should end up being $32 from here to 43055.

Question about this item from (buyer): Traci1
Post on: Sat Apr 10, 05:41 AM
I sold that snake the beginning of March, it was in my care since mid 2003 (maybe a bit longer) I had originally purchased it from Blue Ribbon Herps as a Male. Are you sure it's a female? (I never checked myself) It was NOT cooled while in my care.


Response on this item from (seller): Chrissteelee
Post on: Sat Apr 10, 09:21 AM
I bought this snake in mid February from a breeder that I have never delt with before. James Pincon. I have not sexed her, but she was sold to me as female. She must be a different snake though, since I have had her since before you sold your Motley Anery and I doubt Blue Ribbon Herps would sex her incorrectly.


Question about this item from (buyer): Traci1
Post on: Sat Apr 10, 10:17 AM
that is the same snake I had, I have pictures to prove it. I see you have some of the other 9 I sold to Jason in KY as well. I have pictures and the markings match up exact. I just want people to have the right info if they are going to bid.


Response on this item from (seller): Chrissteelee
Post on: Sat Apr 10, 02:41 PM
Actually my cousin owns the Motley Anery that I got from Jason and yes they are very similar. Now you have jeopardized my auction, possibly stopped the bidding, and lowered the level of trust here. The mature, moral thing to have done would have been to email me. We could have discussed it there before you posted here. I get my herps from a variety of people, national and local. But yes, this Corn is Very similar to the one from Jason. Sadly, my cousin has no interest in keeping more than one or breeding snakes. As for me, I have no interest in breeding Motley Anery Corns although they are definately a wonderful morph. Anything else, please email me. [email protected] Thanks.


Response on this item from (seller): Chrissteelee
Post on: Sat Apr 10, 02:50 PM
By the way, I do understand and fully appreciate your concern here. Although posting this before consulting me is wrong, there is no way I can prove I am truthful and no way for you to prove that I am not being truthful. This leaves the possible bidders thinking, "...hmmm there is a chance this guy may be using some chicanery."

Now, say I am telling the truth. No one knows for sure I am and are now probably very doubtful. You've probably cut my bids in half.

Question about this item from (buyer): Traci1
Post on: Sat Apr 10, 04:50 PM
You are right this was the wrong place for me to post this, I'm sorry. I should have posted it on the BOI. There I can post my picture and bidders can judge for themselves. You don't find people much more honest than I, and I have nothing to gain by "jeopardizing" your auction. I know that is the same animal I sold to Jason, as well as a few others you have / had on ReptiBid. If I felt you were possibly misrepresenting the other ones I'd say something about that too. At the same time if you wanted more info on them so you could pass it along to your buyers I would do that too.



Here is MY (Traci) picture of that snake while it was in my care.
I am a good honest person, and I would not try to "start something" with someone for no reason nor would I post this if I didn't feel strongly about it.



Traci Engle

don't do it!!!

Dont buy boas on Repibid period

Traci,

Looks like you have a good case. It looks to me like that the two pictures are of the same snake. The patterns match up on your picture of his snake.

Actually I would say that the pics on the auction site are of poor enough quality thatif the only thing you have based this post on is a comparison of your photo to those photos you are pretty thin on evidence. If Chris is inclined to post a decent shoy of the underside of the tail we can put the gender issue to rest pretty easily.

John, I will get some good underside photos up Monday. Its late and I will be gone all day sunday.

Here is a snake with the exact same pattern, just darker. Lots of snakes look the same Traci. All in the same morph of corn you could have lots that look identical and some that look as if they aren't even the same morph.

http://www.mohrsnakes.com/Collection/motanerym.JPG

Chris Steele said:

Here is a snake with the exact same pattern, just darker. Lots of snakes look the same Traci. All in the same morph of corn you could have lots that look identical and some that look as if they aren't even the same morph.

http://www.mohrsnakes.com/Collection/motanerym.JPG

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Chris, in my opinion the snake in that picture (or the way it appears in that picture) does not look like the one I'm referring to. Not only does it appear darker as you mentioned but the pattern does not look exactly the same to me. You are right, lots of snakes look alike. For example I probably could not tell one type of boa from another because I do not work with them. HOWEVER, I am quite familiar with the similarties and differences between corn snakes - especially the ones that I have cared for. I often refer to them as living artwork and quite frequently study their colors and patterns as I handle them.

Originally posted by John Schmitt
if the only thing you have based this post on is a comparison of your photo to those photos you are pretty thin on evidence.

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John, that is not the only thing I am going by - I am also going by the fact that along with this snake Chris has / had other snakes on ReptiBid that I sold to Jason in KY along with the Anery Motley.

Which brings up another point that potential buyers should consider - (someone just emailed me privately about this point)
These snakes (the ones I sold to Jason) have already changed hands two times since the beginning of March. Once they leave Chris's hands that's three times. Now I'm not naive enough to think that every one who buys snakes is buying them to keep for themselves forever. (I obviously didn't) I realize that some people out there are just in this to buy and sell. However I had them since at least mid 2003, I did not buy them and then turn around and sell them right away. Just something to keep in mind.

Traci Engle

Traci,
i fail to see the relevance in your statement about the snakes changing hands several times..
If all the people that have had them since they left you, took good care of them,((which by the pics, it looks as if they did)), who cares how many times they have changed hands???
It seems to me as if you are purposely trying to sabotage Chris's auction..
I mean think about it;;;;
First you post on Repti-Bid saying that the anery is DEFINATELY YOUR SNAKE YOU SOLD TO JASON IN KY!!!
Then,, you come on here and say the same..
THEN;; you say,,"well, it doesn't really look like it,,I GUESS!!"

THEN,, you come with the comment,(((( after the pics prove it wasnt your snake to begin with)))), about how many times the snake has changed hands..
TECHNICALLY,,,, YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY TIMES THAT ANERY HAS CHANGED HANDS...
Why???????
Because,by your own admission, it isnt the same snake you sold to "Jason in KY"..
Chris,,, are you sure you dont know who the person is???
It sounds as if she has a bone to pick with you..

Traci,,, my advice to you;;; If you see something that you dont think looks right,, email that person and find out ALL THE DETAILS,, before you start ruining someone's reputation..
Jeff

Um... I thought she said that the snake that Chris posted that was LIKE the one he had for sale was definately NOT the snake ....

From what I understand:

She posted on reptibid, then here that it was once her snake

Chris posted a picture of an anery like the one he had, to prove they all look similar

She said it wasn't her snake and stated that she knew what her snake looked like.

As far as her other comments etc.... I don't know about that, but that is how I interpret the interaction thus far.

oops

Sasheena,
you are absolutely correct.. I had read John's post about putting a pic on here.. And mis-construed the whole post...
I apoligize Traci..
I do however, think you should have emailed Chris first, and, i still dis-agree with your comment about the snake changing hands so many times..

Once again, please accept my apoligies for jumping the gun Traci..
And Sasheena, Thank you for pointing that fact out to me..
Hey, its late...LOL
Sorry Traci...

Whatever happened to professional courtesy or just plain courtesy? This industry has a poor reputation among other industries and it is because of actions such as this. I was talking to an advertising agency last week and his impression of our industry is that we're greedy cut-throats that would ruin our own businesses if it meant we could get a shot in on our competitors. (sorry about the OT rant)

Why didn't you email Chris privately that you thought the snake was from you originally and that there was some misinformation in his ad? Seems to me your intent was not to fix the situation for Chris, but rather to publically attempt to humiliate him.

Chris states in his ad, he was told it was cooled (thereby not giving a guarantee on that point). I don't know why Chris didn't sex the animal (I would if my name was on it just to be safe) but that seems more of a error in judgement rather than a "bad guy" action (unless it was done deliberate, and you went on the attack before it was known if it was deliberate or not).

Well I hate to say it.

But those pics might not be the best.....
but they are certainly good enough quality to compare the shape of each and every single pattern as they occur.

and those patterns do match up EXACTLY

If all the people that have had them since they left you, took good care of them,((which by the pics, it looks as if they did)), who cares how many times they have changed hands???

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actually her point was on April 9 Chris said he has had it for over two months. That would mean he got it before February 9. But traci did not sell it until March

Here is a snake with the exact same pattern, just darker.

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actually that snake does not have the exact same pattern

I redid the brightness and contrast of her picture.

then and only then did I compare the two

I think that one of the things Traci probably wanted buyers to think about when referring to the fact that the snakes have changed hands so quickly is that the stress of it all might make the snakes more prone to becoming sick. I would care about that and I think most other people would, too.

I also understand WHY Traci posted on the auction and did not bother e-mailing Chris first. She was most likely very upset. I know I would have been. Here she thought she had sold some of her snakes to someone who wanted to give them a good home, only to find out that he turned right around and is selling them, AND not giving correct information. She wanted the bidders to know exactly what they were bidding on.

I say this because I also think the pictures are good enough to see that the patterns match up exactly.

dwedeking said:

This industry has a poor reputation among other industries

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And you don't think that part of the reason for that is people mis representing animals?

I was talking to an advertising agency last week and his impression of our industry is that we're greedy cut-throats that would ruin our own businesses if it meant we could get a shot in on our competitors.

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Whoa there, first of all I do not have a business, I am a hobbyist. Therefore I am not a "competitor". I have nothing to personally gain by "publically attempting to humiliate him" as you believe I am doing.

Seems to me your intent was not to fix the situation for Chris, but rather to publically attempt to humiliate him.

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Did you read the first thing I posted on the Q&A section on his auction? How was that an attempt to humiliate? It was an attempt to provide the proper info to the bidders. I would not have even come to the BOI if he hadn't gone off on how I "cut his bids in half", etc. Seems that his focus is how much he gets for this animal, not providing proper info about the animal.

That seems more of a error in judgement rather than a "bad guy" action (unless it was done deliberate, and you went on the attack before it was known if it was deliberate or not).

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Again, how is what I orignally posted under the Q&A section an "attack"? And where did I say it was deliberate. He very well could be confused about which animal came from who since he says he gets his animals from a variety of people. And is my post here titled "bad guy"?? No, it says "questioning".

Traci Engle

CornCrazy said:

I think that one of the things Traci probably wanted buyers to think about when referring to the fact that the snakes have changed hands so quickly is that the stress of it all might make the snakes more prone to becoming sick. I would care about that and I think most other people would, too.

I also understand WHY Traci posted on the auction and did not bother e-mailing Chris first. She was most likely very upset. I know I would have been. Here she thought she had sold some of her snakes to someone who wanted to give them a good home, only to find out that he turned right around and is selling them, AND not giving correct information. She wanted the bidders to know exactly what they were bidding on.

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Thank you Terri,
You are right I was upset to see that the animals I sold to Jason are already in the hands of another (Chris) and now he is selling them as well. It makes ME feel guilty for selling them to Jason, (he told me he wanted to breed corns for his pet shop) because now they are being subjected to the stress of changing hands and being shipped how many times in less than two months. However, I would not have posted a darn thing if I felt that it was being represented properly. Chris also has some of the other snakes I sold to Jason on ReptiBid and I have not posted anything about those. In fact maybe I should, because I have info about those that he doesn't appear to have. (but I will email that info to him and he can decide if he'd like me to post it or if he just wants to use the info himself)



Traci Engle

Traci,

I apologize if my post came off as overly harsh.

If your concern was truely to inform Chris of errors in his ad, then why not a private email stating your position and giving him the option to fix them. Instead you posted it on a public forum (his Q&A section of the bid) bringing more attention to it and not allowing Chris the chance to fix it, if it was just a mistake. If it was not fixed then take it public as by not fixing it he would have proven it as an intentional scam.

If you sell something it's a business transaction. Your interaction (as is mine, and most everyone's that posts here) with others in this hobby/industry are a direct reflection on us as businesses and hobbyists.

And where did I say it was deliberate. He very well could be confused about which animal came from who since he says he gets his animals from a variety of people.

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So you drag it out in public and your not sure if he's deliberately misleading someone or just an honest mistake? Again, just a courtesy issue that is getting rarer and rarer in this industry, it seems.

dwedeking said:

Traci,

I apologize if my post came off as overly harsh.

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Yeah, actually it did. Apology accepted.

If your concern was truely to inform Chris of errors in his ad, then why not a private email stating your position and giving him the option to fix them.

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Again I am not sure you are reading my posts carefully. I never said my concern or intention was to inform Chris of errors in his ad, I just wanted any potential bidders be sure about what they were bidding on. If you go back and read my original post under the Q&A section of his ad, I asked are you sure it is a female because it was sold to me as a male. And that I myself had not checked it's gender. How is that "not allowing Chris the chance to fix it, if it was just a mistake". Instead of trying to fix anything he jumps all over me about ruining his auction! Only then is when I came to the BOI.

If you sell something it's a business transaction.

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That still does not make me a business or a competitor as you implied earlier. You implied that competition is what motivated me to post.

So you drag it out in public and your not sure if he's deliberately misleading someone or just an honest mistake?

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Is that not what the BOI is for, to provide info so people can make their own decisions if they want to purchase from someone or not? I only chose to come here after the way he reacted to the truthful info I provided about the snake.

Since I am a hobbyist and have bought many more snakes than I have sold - I guess that's why my concern is more for the other buyers out there, whereas your concern and empathy is for the seller.

Traci Engle

The Q&A Abusers

I've seen this time after time on Reptibid. Q&A Abusers like to go on ads and criticize the seller. Whether it's the price, the sex of the animal, or just plain old verbal abuse. I think a select few of them don't realize that they are being rude. But the majority know exactly what they are doing. Lots of people have been banned from the site for this particular violation. Reptibid needs to do away with the direct Q&A fomat they are currently using. They should go to the direct Email format that Kingsnake uses. It eliminates Q&A Abuser problem.

From what I've read in this thread, it seems that this was a classic example of somebody trying to ruin the seller's auction.

Question about this item from (buyer): Traci1
Post on: Sat Apr 10, 05:41 AM
I sold that snake the beginning of March, it was in my care since mid 2003 (maybe a bit longer) I had originally purchased it from Blue Ribbon Herps as a Male. Are you sure it's a female? (I never checked myself) It was NOT cooled while in my care.

This statement clearly tries to make the ad out to be a complete lie. IE (The amount of time the seller has owned the snake, The sex of the snake, and whether or not it has been cooled.)

Really, what difference does it make whether it's the same snake or not? Most snakes change hands dozens of times between the breeder and the final keeper. As long as the snake was given sufficient time to recover between shipping, was eating, and be determined healthy, there shouldn't be any question.

If the person was truly concerned about the truthfullness of the ad then they might have posted the following:

"Are you sure it's a female? Are you sure it has been cooled? How long have you had it?"

OR

"I have a few questions, can you email me?"

Not this: "I sold that snake the beginning of March, it was in my care since mid 2003 (maybe a bit longer) I had originally purchased it from Blue Ribbon Herps as a Male."

Note: I sold that snake = I'm inflating my ego.

Whether or not you were being rude intentionally, you ruined this seller's auction. If your not interested in buying the particular animal, you shouldn't be posting questions/statements anyway.

The auction is a contract between The Buyer & The Seller.

Not The Buyer, The Seller, And All The Other People Who Used to Own the snake.

My advice is: If you have doubts or questions about the accuracy of an auction ad, email the person or check them out on the buyers/sellers forum. Or better yet, just move on.

Don't worry about the other users. They're grown ups, they can handle it on their own. That's one of the reasons you must be 18 to engage in an auction.

To the Q&A Abusers! Find something better to do with your time and stop wasting everybody else's!

Re: The Q&A Abusers

tarheelreptile said:

My advice is: If you have doubts or questions about the accuracy of an auction ad, email the person or check them out on the buyers/sellers forum. Or better yet, just move on.

Don't worry about the other users. They're grown ups, they can handle it on their own. That's one of the reasons you must be 18 to engage in an auction.

To the Q&A Abusers! Find something better to do with your time and stop wasting everybody else's!

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I disagree. Condoning false actions (be it an honest mistake or as in this case the seller not checking the snake's sex) is not much different then committing the act yourself. Allowing someone to misrepresent an animal that someone else could be paying more for (a female would sell for more than a male) is just plain wrong. I'd bet if you received an animal that you were told was a female and then received a male you would be upset.