CwnAnnwn
Active member
As requested by a moderator. We need to have this conversation.
I couldn't agree more. I get so tired of hearing small-time hobby keepers/breeders making comments slamming wholesalers. Every. Stinking. Species. in this hobby that is captive-bred ORIGINALLY came from animals collected from the wild. It took MILLIONS of imported Ball Pythons to get us to the point where we don't "need" to import them any longer, and yet, we still do. EVERYONE who keeps animals -even 20th generation captive-bred animals- is guilty of benefiting from the wholesale industry.
OF COURSE it is better to buy captive-bred when possible- absolutely!- but with what seems like 90% of the breeders focusing on the same dozen or so species, it is going to be a long time before this hobby is free from a need for wholesalers and/or importers, and you are 110% correct that our collective frogs are being slowly boiled- thinking it "okay" to "ban" a species because YOU don't keep it or outlaw a certain segment of the industry because YOU don't work in that segment will eventually be then end of this hobby for us all.
So that justifies mistreating animals? Not housing or feeding them properly because it would lower profit margins?
You don't think that someone who is extremely mindful about only buying captive bred animals makes a difference? So because 20 generations ago these animals were imported, I should continue to buy imported animals? That logic doesn't even make sense.
Also, I'm personally saying not to buy from wholesalers. At what point does someone stop being a hobby breeder and their opinion is of value to you? When they have 50 snakes? 100 snakes? What if I have 300? What if breeding snakes is my entire business, but I still say not to buy from wholesalers? Does my opinion suddenly hold more merit?
You're right, we don't need to import anymore. There are enough ball pythons out there to fill every single pet store 100 times over. Yet they're still imported because of people like you who think that if they buy a wild caught gravid female that they'll get to discover a new morph and make a name for themselves. As soon as people stop having the nonsensical opinion you just posted maybe things will start to change for the better.
Well, you can buy from wholesalers if you want, but this is the sort of thing it promotes. This is the reason I stick to private breeders.
You are extrapolating incorrectly, and putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. Perhaps your defensiveness arises from your realization that yes, you have in fact benefited from cheap imports in the past-? At any rate, your logical fallacies are your own- not mine.
To begin with, as many others have pointed out, we can't even know if this "mistreatment" is legitimately recorded or not. Video "evidence" is not "evidence" if it was edited/produced in such a way as to give an impression of something that isn't accurate. Anyone can find a freshly-injured animal and photograph/film it as if it had been that way for a long time. Also, recording someone saying something isn't necessarily "proof", either- both the person quoted and the person filming could have it out for the wholesaler. We just don't know.
What we DO know is, every single captive-bred reptile or amphibian in the trade descended from animals imported by importers. The vast majority of those were sold by wholesalers. To slam them is to slam yourselves. No, your opinion is not invalid because of the number of snakes you keep. Your opinion is invalid because of your lack of logic and your self-righteous attitude.
We are already witnessing signs of in-breeding depression in too many captive-bred reptiles. When/if the importers/wholesalers are gone, so too will be the fresh bloodlines that keep our hobby viable.
As evidenced by what exactly?
I could breed my ball pythons for the next 15 years and never cross lines once. I buy a few snakes from people across the country and can go another 10. Why do we need to keep importing ball pythons again?
I don't currently work with ball pythons, but I'm pretty sure all of those morphs didn't just fall out of the sky. They were bred, then in-bred from wild-collected animals.
Bug-eyed Leucistic Texas Ratsnakes, neurological problems in Ball and Carpet Pythons, scaleless-ness in numerous species are just a few examples of the evidence of inbreeding depressions and negative mutations fixed through inbreeding that I need. Sorry that you can't handle opinions that differ from yours.
No one is talking about your precious "balls" but you. I am arguing for a need for importers in general. I know this is difficult for you to imagine since you are a "ball" guy, but there are THOUSANDS of interesting species which are not yet fixed into perpetual morph-dom. When the day comes that the entirety of the reptile hobby is less than a dozen captive-bred only species, it will be a sad day for many, even if not for you.
I was waiting for this. So to be clear, neurological issues like we see in spider ball pythons and jaguar carpets are a result of inbreeding (is your claim). So the fact that these morphs have been outbred for the last 20 years but still have the neurological issues inherent ONLY to those genes (siblings of jag carpets and spider balls are perfectly fine) leads you to still conclude it's a result of inbreeding?
I'm not sure you understand how genetics work.
Let's play a game. You said earlier that I extrapolated incorrectly and that my logic was flawed, so let me try again.
Your claim, and correct me if I'm wrong:
Because importers got us to where we are today, we should continue to support importers even now.
Is that your claim or am I still misunderstanding you?
I'm late for work, but WILL reply in depth later. I do think it's funny how you agreed with webslave, but when I agreed with him you took issue presumably because of my "hobby breeder" remark. LOL
Reply pointing our your logical fallacies to follow...
*out*
I think you need to brush up on your reading comprehension. I agreed that PETA has ulterior motives and nothing else. Not sure how you translated that to promoting importers but if it fits your argument...
The reason that inbreeding is genetically bad is that it is much more likely for a recessive deleterious gene to present itself when you breed between siblings or between parent and offspring. By outcrossing, you have much greater odds of not only NOT having a detrimental recessive gene express but not passing that recessive part along at all. By consistently outbreeding, you potentially remove these "bad genes" from the gene pool entirely.
That being said, the spider ball python is a dominant gene. It has nothing to do with inbreeding. Same with the jaguar carpet, they're both genetic mutations that popped up randomly, they aren't recessive and so inbreeding has nothing to do with it.
I'm not arguing that inbreeding is good and I do everything I can to avoid it in my own collection, but to argue that we still need importers and use that as your basis is simply ridiculous.
Isn't this going a bit off topic? I hate to see us reptile folks fighting amongst ourselves. Even more so when it is going off topic.
As to this video, we just don't have all the facts yet. Please reserve judgements for a time when there is more information.
Then to see members of the reptile community going at each other, it saddens me a lot. Seems like this video has done its job, and among us of all things! And no I'm not advocating blind loyalty to any and all members of the reptile community, but just to wait and gather more information before coming to conclusions.
Every day each of us has a responsibility to our animals whether we have 1 or 1000. Please start with yourself. Use this as an opportunity to make sure your own husbandry is beyond reproach while we are waiting for more facts to come out.
I guess I should correct myself, technically they're both codom but the super is lethal...which is why people generally don't breed spider to spider or jag to jag (in other words, they don't inbreed them because they know the babies will die). The argument remains exactly the same except in this case we can visually see the "detrimental recessive gene" and easily avoid doubling up on it.
I've actually been to a different wholesaler/importer's facility and can say that this video didn't surprise me at all. Whether it's accurate as far as who it's attacking I don't know, I only know what I've seen firsthand.
When someone argues that we need people to import animals and treat them this way because it's good for the industry as a whole, I have a problem with it. That's all it is.
Which is actually weird now that I think about it. Every other wholesaler/importer has just as many negative reviews as positive, but I never saw a negative about RBM before now. Maybe that video was shot somewhere else or was set up by a "slighted" employee? Crazier things have happened.
I really don't see it as fighting among ourselves. More like debating. Debating on a topic that is at the very crux of RBM problem.
Both Mr. Burgener and Mr. White have made valid points.
I am going to try to take both sides, point out how they fit into the current issue.
Mr. White has pointed correctly out that with out importers, we would not have a lot of animals we enjoy today. And it is not only the reptile hobby. Horses, cows, cats, dogs, plants, grains, ect. The list is endless.
Mr. White is also correct that for some species, we do need to have more wild caught/imported brought in.
I think that Mr. Burgener would agree that it should not give us a carte de blanche for everything that can be grabbed off the forest floor. We should be responsible for what we collect, try to strike a balance between over collecting and what is needed in our collections.
Mr. Burgener has pointed out, correctly, that we really don't need any more ball pythons. We also don't need any more horses, cats, dogs, and ferrets. I think he would agree that we can sustain our current populations with what we have.
But imported does not always means wild caught. A lot of tarantulas are Captive Bred in Europe and imported to the United States. Bearded dragons, leopard geckos, ect... A small breeder in West Germany may have had 30 generations of captive breed animals that he sells to a exporter in Germany to be imported into the United States.
And, in my opinion, we should 100% support theses efforts. We really would not have enough of some species to keep the lines pure and breeding them.
Both sides have it correct. But they are debating over the same subject. Mr. White seems to be on the side of more imports are better. Mr. Burgener would like to see some reasonable limits on the imports and more animals bought from captive breeders. But that is the same subject, imports. And both are correct. We need responsible imports of some species. We also need to stop importing of other species. We can argue the details of that, but I think both sides would agree to that.
As for the fatal genetic flaws. That really has nothing to do with the conversation. Mr. Burgener is correct on that front. Just because we see the genes come out from some breeding does not mean there is a ticking time bomb in very line. Most rats come from a handful of individuals on one ship. Almost every animal that exist on Hawaii was from very small founder populations. The problem with captive breeding is snakes that would never survive in wild get forced fed in captivity.
But no Mr. White, because we have these genetic problems in captive populations does not mean we are all doomed. We don't need to import more of some species. The effects that we see from captive breeding is artificially created by us. When we decide to move away from breeding those traits that cause the problems, the problem will go away.
Now to Ms. Allinson, what the heck does this have to do with RBM?
Four things that effect importers that does not really effect private collections.
1.) Transmission of disease.
2.) Transportation injuries/stress.
3.) High volume of product.
4.) Specialized care.
Transmission of disease. To put it bluntly. When you have a large ever changing population animals, you will have disease. You can not properly screen for it, you can not properly contain it, and you may not even know you have it. There is a million things you can do to stop it, but you have to do those million things to thousands of animals coming into and leaving your property. It is very easy to get overwhelmed. And it is very easy for one disease to get your whole colony sick. Quarantine works, but you can not give 1 imported animal 1 storage area to themselves. It will happen. It happens in private collections under perfect care. When you add thousands of animals, it becomes worst.
Transportation injuries/stress. Any keeper and breeder knows this problem. The animal is perfectly fine until it is shipped then the best get injured and die. Anything that injuries the animal in shipping requires extra care when they get in. And that care can take time. Importing wild caught animals, the death rate is obscene to most rational keepers. 50%-100% death rates are completely common. Injuries of very sort is reported. It is some thing importers have to deal with. To be fair, a lot of these animals are bought off food markets. Where they are suppose to be killed and cooked. So they are not in the best care anyway. Private keepers, not so much.
High volume of product. This will nail every importer to the floor every once in a while. They get an order/s in, only to find that it contains thousands of animals. Each of them need to be checked, watered, housed, and cared for. The sick and wounded to need to be separated. You can have a perfect facility with just 10 people, toss in thousands of new animals and you will get overwhelmed very easily. And with that, everything above becomes more of a problem. If you get a shipment of bearded dragons in that came from a shipping truck that wrecked, you will have injuries. Private collections keep the numbers small.
Specialized care. You wonder why they have so many anoles running around. Because some wild caught animals will only eat anoles. They are masters of escaping. A large, wild caught or specialized import contains animals that are not eating frozen thaw mice. Specialized care means more time. More time means easier to get overwhelmed.
I know most of the people here understand all the above. But it is the crux of the problem.
To be a good importer, you need a lot of capital. Which means you need a lot of sales. Which means you need a lot of animals. And that means you end up getting the above problems.
Can we stop importing, no.So, both of them are right and wrong and completely on topic. In my opinion, importers are a necessary evil. They exist because we want to protect a species in a world that is trying to kill it. But we should not paint a rosy picture and go hog wild on it either.
The reason that RBM's video was soo graphic is simply because importing is graphic. You get sick and dying animals. You get overwhelm very easily. It happens. In the perfect world, you would have perfect outcomes. But when you take things out of context and place them in a carefully edited video, it making everything look worst.
Sorry for the long rant, just something that gets under my skin.
Thank you Dan, you're absolutely correct. I agree that some species still are not abundant enough and we need to import them, but some of the things that are still being imported to me seem ridiculous (as I mentioned, ball pythons in particular). You're also correct about defining importing, my argument is strictly in terms of wild-caught animals. Buying them from Canada or Europe, while still technically importing, is not what I find concerning.
Thank you for the excellent summary, I genuinely appreciate it.
Mr. Carroll, while I appreciate what you say about the challenges of the industry in general, isn't the debate in this thread (the line between debate and argument being thin and subjective) about this video? Isn't it about this specific breeder/wholesaler/retailer?
I appreciate that what you say in your second to last paragraph is a very thoughtful analysis. My point of view is that however knowledgeable you are, is it still just a guess in this case with many facts not yet in evidence. That is unless you have case specific information I'm not aware of. That's certainly possible.
I'm not part of the import or not debate, just for the record. I understand there is a larger picture and larger issues that need to be discussed; but I respectfully disagree that they need to be discussed in this thread. If that is not where the community is and they want to make this thread about a larger picture, so be it. Far be it from me, a person with a handful of posts on this board, to say. I'm definitely not trying to play mod here. I hope that I've been totally respectful in my questioning of this topic going larger.
My bottom line: I'm for not letting AR groups divide and conquer based on this video when we don't yet have or know what is fact or not. Some think they know what probably is fact. I'll give you that. I'm not saying you are wrong, but how do I know you are right? I'm very skeptical about anything on the internet that is presented as fact without more information, and considering PETA's oft stated agenda, even more so. Is it possible yes? Is this the result of imports? Certainly possible. So are a lot of other things about this video possible, but are they fact (and I mean in this specific case, not in importing in general). I don't believe it is fair when talking about a specific case to present something unless you know it to be true.
I know a few things about this case. I know this video is heartbreaking and painful for me to watch. I know PETA has an agenda to end pet ownership and all human use of animals. I know I have bought a healthy snake from RbM and had positive interactions with the company during that transaction. I know that the snakes at my local PetSmart are housed appropriately and appear clean and healthy every time I've looked. All else for me is guesswork without more information specific to this case.
I seem to be repeating myself in the "don't know with more info" thing. Apologies in advance for that. I do appreciate your points though I don't share your certainty.
One of the aspects that has been left out of this point is with regard to ethics and mores.
Over time the ethics and mores of not only the supply chain but the hobby have undergone changes. For example in Klauber"s Rattlesnakes, Their Life Histories, and Influence on Mankind, Klauber notes that rattlesnakes were offered as "defanged" by forcibly removing the matured fangs by tearing them out. This should not be considered acceptable by today's standards in the hobby but back in the day it was "okay". As a result the argument about what animals we have/do not have due to exports/exporters needs to also be placed in the context of how the hobby has changed.
There is a element that isn't under total control of the importer and the subsequent chain of possession to the hobbyist. This is that those who collect the animals and sell them up the chain to and including the exporters are known to require purchase of animals to pad the order. This means that the importer can have difficult to care for or even injured/severely ill animals included.
Animals under natural selection pressures such as the rats/island colonizations can't be as easily equated to genetic issues in captivity. This is because deleterious genes are under pressure to be removed from the population in the wild combined with pressure to adapt to those stressors.
In captive animals those mutations can continue to accumulate until the cumulative effects impact survival of the captive populations.
Not necessarily, for those problems to be reduced to the absolute minimum with require the acceptance there is an inherent bias by keepers as to which animals to breed. As a simple example basing the choice of which animals to breed is due to which patterns you prefer is a form of directed selection which has been shown in multiple taxa to cause loss of genetic diversity.
Collection and captive breeding doesn't really contribute to conservation unless/until a sustainable harvest for the ecosystem is set into place. Note that a total ban on collection tends to be a problem as does over collection. for some discussions see
Fraser, Dylan J.; 2008; How well can captive breeding programs conserve biodiversity? A review of salmonids; Evolutionary Applications 1-52
Hutton, Jon; Dickson, Barney; 2001; Conservation out of exploitation: a silk purse from a sow’s ear?; In Conservation of Exploited Species; Cambridge University Press; New York
Sanderson, Steven, 2001; Getting biology right in a political sort of way; In Conservation of Exploited Species; Cambridge University Press; New York
If you have any appreciation for animals then any video showing conditions described as above regardless of who made it is going to cause a emotional response which is what is intended. Now how accurate a representation of the facility over time is the variable that has to be known. It is easy to film an abnormal sequence of bad events (and many of those have been pointed out) but whether or not that is standard operating procedure is unknown.
Currently there aren't any requirements set by the USDA on cold blooded animals in the pet trade. There is a two fold attack by PETA and other more fringe animal rights groups in that they want to force the USDA to set and regulate these aspects of the pet trade. The second is that they want to get the general public to demand a cessation of the pet trade. If the USDA develops regulations, PETA etc will absolutely be lobbying for regulations they want to push.
some comments
Ed
Unfortunately skipping at least some of those points can and will present a different situation than if they are clearly discussed as the discussion presents both the bad and the good. Without those points to balance out the emotional effects of the video, a very slanted presentation can easily arise.
Some comments
Ed
This is something to consider as well. It's very possible that this video simply showed some of the animals arriving in a large import order. If that's the case, there's no way RBM could have prevented them being in the condition they were and could only try to correct it.
That to me would exonerate RBM in terms of responsibility but still puts a very negative light on the importing business in general.
I apologize for not being clear. Information specifically known as fact about the handling of imports in this particular business are pertinent, but we don't have any facts about it that I know of at this time.
I don't see that generalizations about the challenges of the industry balance out the emotional effects of the video very well and are perhaps counterproductive at this point in time. Not that it isn't interesting. It certainly is.
This video gives one side. The other side has given a brief, preliminary statement, but presented no facts of their own. Unless you have personal knowledge in this situation, all else is conjecture.
The question then is, is speaking for a business that needs to be given some time to gather evidence and identify things that may need improvement, and then to speak for itself, truly helpful?
I have been consistent in asking for folks to give it a little time and asking for facts about this case, and that will not change. Facts about the practices in the industry in general are not the same thing as the facts in this case, which we don't have yet.
We do know that PETA has an agenda and a track record of their actions. We also know that RbM has a track record as a good guy here on the BOI and is a respected member of the reptile community.
Now, I'm going to be the one who says, enough, I've said my piece. I'll keep reading and keep hoping that people ask for and get factual information about this case. I'm not disappearing, just tired of repeating myself. Nowhere else for me to go with it at this point.
Wow. SOOOOOO many logical fallacies on this thread, it's not even worth trying to tackle them all. No, "Mr. White" is NOT on the side of "more imports are better", and no one said ANYTHING about "immune system depression" (I said "in-breeding depression"). I will NOT waste my time arguing with people who cannot even quote correctly- that's a rabbit hole I just don't have time for.
People, do you know what a "logical fallacy" is? Without linking you to a definition, I'll give you an example of a logical fallacy... An example would be if I say I don't care for clowns, and you then assume, based on what I said, that I hate circuses. I may hate circuses, or I may not, but it is a FALLACY to state that BECAUSE I said I hate clowns, I must therefore hate circuses.
Another example that I see on too many comments sections to articles online is (and this IS on-topic to the discussion, because far too many of you do not know how to debate clearly, it seems)... Someone attacks a politician (we'll say "Obama"), and then someone else corrects the points the first poster used to attack Obama as not being true. AUTOMATICALLY, it is assumed that the person doing the correcting MUST be an "Obama supporter", when that is not necessarily the case. [That would be] another logical fallacy.
To say that because I think wholesalers shouldn't be held to the same standards as some boutique or hobby breeder or that someone ignorant of all the things an importer has to deal with DOES NOT mean I am "for" not caring for animals. That is stupid, and anyone who makes that leap of logic is, as well. I also did not say that we specifically "need" to import ball pythons- I said it continues to happen. As for the "need" for importers, I stand by what I said. If you look at almost any breed of dog in the U.S. today and compare that animal to the breed standards of 100 years or more ago, you will SEE the subtle changes and degradation caused by inbreeding depression. Sorry, but snakes' "wobbles" and a dog's hip dysplasia are both conditions brought about by in-breeding affected animals.
To say you "never" buy from wholesalers is fine, but many of us do, and many people YOU have purchased from have and will. For many of us, our introduction into the exotics hobby was via a purchase from a pet store whose ORIGINAL purchase was made from a wholesaler. Just because a breeder feels he or she has reached some pinnacle that they are now somehow above purchasing from a retailer or a wholesaler is fine- until they start using that sense of superiority to slam the others. I had a local kid tell me recently he "wouldn't" buy from chain pet stores because "they don't take care of their animals". He didn't form this opinion from experience (he's too young and new to the hobby). He "formed" this opinion by reading opinions from arrogant breeders trying to keep all the hobby dollars for themselves, not realizing that "a rising tide raises ALL ships". Personally, I will buy from whoever and wherever I can find an animal I need in reasonable health at a reasonable price. In my time I've purchased wonderful animals from importers, wholesalers, jobbers and brokers, breeders and simple "pet" owners who wished to re-home their animal. I've also purchased unhealthy animals from every one of those sectors. They are not the same and they have different advantages/disadvantages, and as Web Slave more or less stated, to hold them to the same standards is wrong.
The wholesale link is a vital and important link in the ENTIRE chain that is YOUR (and my) hobby. Our hobby as a whole is ONLY as strong as its weakest link, and irresponsible bashing of one of those links because you favor YOUR link in the chain is unfair and detrimental to us ALL.
I'm not going to go into all the stories I've accumulated over 40 years of keeping, breeding and selling reptiles about how some "big names" in the industry have occasionally screwed up or had animals in their care that didn't do so well. The fact of the matter is, wholesalers deal in VOLUME. This isn't "greed" anymore than it is "greed" for YOU to not want to pay $200. for a baby green iguana. It is what it is, and it's apparent that many who would complain about how wholesalers operate have only a very near-sighted vantage point of the industry as a whole.
Actually, I hit the "enter" too soon... I meant to add that Dan Carroll is correct in that we are ALL losing our hobby because of the in-fighting. You know how the saying is paraphrased- "When they came for the Retics, I did nothing, because I don't keep Retics". You can just as easily say "When PETA and the HSUS came for the wholesalers, I didn't care, because I don't buy from wholesalers"...
You hear that "chip, chip, chip"? That's all the groups with agendas different than yours, steadily chipping away at our passions.
