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It seems there is more to this MKR thing than just blowing out surplus stock.

H

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I have been forum hopping and reading different threads and I came across one on Constrictors.com (Wilbanks site) about some big friccass between Bob Clark, Mike Wilbanks, Ralph Davis, Neil Gubitz and some guy named Eric from overseas that produced the original white balls that apparently got upset with Wilbanks and Clark for not giving him due credit. Here is the link:

http://constrictors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9735

I'm just wondering if anyone knows what the heck is going on here between these guys that is causing the market to crash on ball morphs. Although this event was/is inevitable, it seems to be a tad premature. It seems there is a lot more to this that meets the eye. Like something between the above fellahs and that MKR and others might be intentionally crashing the market so as to get at some of the self important "big names" in the business.

If anyone can help clear this up I would sure be interested in knowing what the heck is really going on. At least here it won't be one sided and biased.

David Beauchemin
 
This whole fiasco is just frustrating.

Yes prices will drop but like you said, it appears there is more to this than meets the eye.

I really doubt this will affect the big breeders but someone small who has thousands of $$$ invested in BP's only to see the market crash in front of them a year later are the ones who will be impacted the most IMO.

It hurts to know that what you paid several thousand for a few short months ago in reality is now worth less than 1/2 of that on the market today.
 
Well, from what I read on Mike Wilbanks' forum, I know all I think I need to know. All involved have now posted, it seems, and the thread there has been locked.

Looks like someone else is trying to screw a few folks over, which in turn will only end up screwing many of the rest of us over, but MKR is just the one giving him a reacharound to help him do it.

It's nice to know who us "little guys" mean absolutely nothing to....we're just "acceptable casualties" in someone else's petty war, I guess. :>Puke<:
 
I would like to apologize for defending MKR at the beginning. I did not have all the facts and should have stayed out of it. I was only stating what he had told me at the beginning of the season and I see now that I was misguided.
Meliisa
 
harrellharrell said:
I would like to apologize for defending MKR at the beginning. I did not have all the facts and should have stayed out of it. I was only stating what he had told me at the beginning of the season and I see now that I was misguided.
Meliisa
Click to expand...


You were operating on what information you had, and said what you believed was right. I don't think an apology is necessary, but it is a very nice gesture nonetheless. MKR had a LOT of folks fooled....me included, at one time.
 
More to it than even that.

Cat_72 said:
MKR had a LOT of folks fooled....me included, at one time.
Click to expand...

I did a little more digging last night and found out a whoooole lot more about this little drama. It seems that anyone posting in the thread on Constrictor forums with a contrary opinion to Mikes and Bobs was immediately deleted and arbitrarily banned. What I found on Ralph Davis' site was a lot more revealing and straightforward.

It seems that this all dates back to 2003 with the original BEW ball. The guy that actually produced it sold some "hets" to Clark and Wilbanks. They marketed these hets and misrepresented the "BEW" snake as an "All white snake" even though the only one in existance that was still with Eric Davies overseas had yellow spots on it. Apparently Eric Davies got upset when he saw that they had the photos of his snake doctored so as to erase the yellow spots to in turn market their "hets" as het for all white. He felt it was dishonest and he wanted no part of it.

Here is a post right from the horses mouth on the subject and a link to the entire thread on the matter. It blew my mind when I read it. I never would have figured something like this going on with any of the bigger breeders.

Quote[/I think it is now time for me to add my 'sixpenneth' on this sorry state of affairs.
Firstly, Clark and I never had a 'Deal' or a 'Partnership'with regard to the Fires.
Secondly, I became unhappy with the way that the Fires and Black-eyed Leucistics were being marketted by Clark and objected to the way that Clark had had the small, yellow marks removed from the picture of the first BEL and claimed it to be a totally white snake without blemish.
At the time, we had produced a number of Fires and the BEL male, so I did not think it wise to claim that the morph was a co-dominent and that the BEL was the Super Fire, before PROVING fully that it was,although Clark claimed right away that the Fire morph was.
It was not until a couple of years later that I was able to produce 100% Fires from the BEL X Normal matings and eventually PROVE the morph out as co-dominent.
Wilbanks claim that Ralph was instrumental in my falling out with Clark is rediculous! Clarks own marketting practices were the reason that I fell out with him - and just as a BTW, I didn't even know that Mike Wilbanks existed when I first sold the Fires to Clark, he was never mentioned!
Ralph Davis has never been anything more than just a damn good friend to me, he has paid Clark a considerable amount of money out of his own pocket when Clark claimed that I owed him a proportion of the promotional costs incurred by him advertising the Fires and BEL.
Ralph has never asked me or my partners if he could be involved in the Fire 'project'and has even purchased from us a number of Fires and a BEL female AT MARKET PRICE!
To Wilbanks and 'Little Nuts' - Grow up the pair of you, and stop acting like a couple of spoiled brats! Your jealousy of Ralph and what he has achieved is getting tiresome. Eric Davies/]End Quote

Link to thread:
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7890&whichpage=5

David Beauchemin
 
RJBILBY said:
Did you read the reply to this on the original link you posted?
Click to expand...

Exactly!! Have you been back and read all of the additional posts on that original thread you posted??? There are plenty of "conflicting" posts still up, as well as an answer to the very post you just put up......including original emails from Eric and Ralph to Mike and Bob that paint a VERY different picture than what Ralph is trying to paint......
 
Whats Up.

I dont like the way that some people are saying that MKR is just blowing out surplus stock. Everyone that breeds ball pythons knows that at this time of year most babies are just starting to feed good right now. That seems to blow that theory right out of the water. I think that we all know now that it was just a calculated attack on mike Wilbanks and another breeder from Oklahoma. If anyone can add to this, I would like to hear another point of view.
 
You do know that one half of MKR is an owner of a car dealership or two, that explains their buisness plan. MKR also pulled the wool over VPIs eyes when they were just getting started so they were given a clean pass to buy many different morphs without any questions. As for Ralph he does have a shackey track record he has even screwed the great Evilmorphgod a time or two.
 
Bill, last I understood, the car dealerships had been sold. But you can definitely see the "used car salesman" of lore in his tactics, can't ya? You know the kind......the ones that would sell their own frail old mother a lemon to make a few bucks.....
 
This is what Ralph had to say on this topic

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7828&whichpage=11

I have followed and watched MKR from the beginning.......from the day I first sold them stock. Joe lied to all the breeders and said he wanted "expensive pets".......Once "we" figured out that he was buying "expensive pets" from all the BIG BOYS the writing was on the wall........none of us believed it anyway.

I actually thought he was buying stuff from me for another breeder who did not want to deal with me directly.

So they start out of the gate with "we sell for less"...........that rubs us all wrong and they took heat.

In that "we sell for less" time they sold what stock they had for market as far as I'm concerned. Their slogan was used to get "the calls" so that Joe could hook them......now the whole vibe of "we sell for less" just sucked because nobody wants to see the word "less" associated with Ball Python morphs........most of all me.

Joe spent a fortune gathering up morphs from all the BIG Boys.......found himself Wes.........Wes breeds and Joe sells.....

I'm not defending Joe or Wes at all..........I just look at this differently then the rest. Yes I have lost money for years and years by NOT selling cheap EVER.........and by holding prices high and not advertising any sales or deals PERIOD.

I could have handed everyone their asses two years ago before anyone even had a shot at getting any stock to sell or get geared up for any kind of real production.

I did not....and will not..........I know I'm one of very few who keep the BP ball rolling........I know if certain people in the biz "look weak" then the whole thing comes crashing down.....the "heros" that loose money every day on a deal that they could easily match............I could match or beat every single deal out there if I have the stock........I won't.

I know a lot more of "where this came from" than most...........yes I sell to MKR.......yes I've beat the shit out of them and they still continue to buy from me.........

Here is "why"??

We all know for the past two years that co-doms have been produced in numbers and sold cheap........some advertised in small numbers on KS........some at shows........a lot of us know "who" is behind these shady little deals..........there are plenty of them. These are guys who just roll snakes over for cash to keep themselves alive.........they have over-head that's killing them.......they can't be hassled with "holding stock".........they need money!!..........and they need it every month to make bills......

I understand all of this.........and understand the "monthly stuff" can eat at you if you don't know where your next buck is coming from........so these guys sell at any price that get's the job done........there is "NO SHAME" when you need the bucks.

This happens and is happening right now........it's all on the down low and "hush, hush".........but plenty of so called breeders are actually nothing but "jobbers".........flipping snakes like nothing.

I know of some who have bought at $500.00 each just to flip for $550.00 each.......that's pathetic and very sad to me.......

MKR has a serious ax to grind with a few well know breeders and some other low ballin' scum-bags....

Joe asked me "how long will you let these people take money out of your pocket?".........I said "always"........"it's the way it has to be.....it's the place I put myself in"..........I'm expected to do "the right thing" .......that means I take losses.

Sure I do well on the front end.......I always do well

Believe me.......it hurts to see my "baby" sold so cheap. I started seeing the prices fall to 6 and 8k a pair and just thought that these people are nuts.......knowing that the time has come and I will eventually have to meet lower prices......I sold Lessers for 25k for 4 years!!!

Nobody feels worse for the "little guys" who were just about to "break out" and make some money than me........the past two years it's happened every damn day......

I can say that I know all my customers are satisfied and that I had no part in ever forcing a customer to "make less"...........

I've got the policy now of letting people hang themselves.......

MKR sold a lot of stuff..........said he did like $130k in a week or so........he made $130k on $250k worth of stuff......at the prices posted it wouldn't be hard for any of us to make that quick money......

MKR wants to squeeze certain people..........if they think they are big enough to do it........so be it. I would actually like to put "the squeeze" on a few myself.

Joe told me two months ago that he wanted to "hit the gas"..........said he wasn't gonna hold a high price while he knew Lessers and Mojaves were being sold right under his nose.......believe me...........I know exactly what he means..........BUT............Joe isn't expected to "perform"........Joe sells stuff..........that's what Joe does.

I got so many emails and phone calls about this while I was away on vacation........everyone wanted to know "what to do?".........from people pissed off to people who took deposits on 06 lessers that they had pre-sold for $7.5k.........

How long have we watched and bitched about the bullshit prices on the classified ads?.............I won't even look.......

How long have we all been waiting for a "Big Boy" to shit in our bed?

Well it just happened..........it was bound to happen.........and believe me, there are others doing the same on the down low..........but the "down low" deals always get ratted out and people get hurt........

I'm not selling lessers for 2.5k..........and wouldn't expect anyone else to either.......some will, some won't

The problem here is that I have way more information on what is actually going on and can't really unleash it all.......it's nothing that will "destroy" the market.......just "back door" shit going down..........breeders who want to destroy each other..........and the snakes take the hit.......

Kinda like two divorced parents using the "kids" to get back at each other......

As much as I'd like to smash some people's teeth down their throats.........I can not. So I can resort to crushing another breeder's project the first chance I get.........."force" a breeder with high over-head to make less money.........SQUEEZE them so hard that they can't take the heat and just fold..........( that was an example )

See where I'm coming from on this?..........BAD BLOOD in a totally unregulated bizzzzzz.........I've learned that we should count our blessings with all the hot heads and egos in this biz...........it could be a lot worse!! ( me included )

This BAD BLOOD has cost us all money........I know it has crushed many people's hopes and scared many from spending money......

This is just a "burp"......."The Market" is weird right now......expect the unexpected.....

This boils down to one person using his smarts, money and "inside info" against others........and we all pay the price. Don't think for one minute that there is a "hero" in any of this........there ain't.

I don't want anyone to think I'm taking sides or have no sympathy for anyone who lost money, sales deposits or hope.......I feel bad about this......it's done.

I'm just maturing in the biz enough to know that we all have to be ready for a "monkey wrench" ever so often.

Anyone who had pre-sales should honor the agreed price and that be that.........anyone who feels the need to drop their prices so be it...........MKR does not have an ever lasting supply of lessers and mojaves.

I think all the morphs are worth more "to me" than most prices listed.......I sell at the price that it's worth to me and what I can do with it in my collection.

Yes we have to be realistic with prices.......no BIG Boys are folding up their tents any time soon.........the market is growing and with that we will have to deal with more "bad guys"........but there will be plenty of "good guys" too..

The fact that MKR sold so many snakes in such short of time is very reassuring that people are spending.

The "public low ball prices"........yep.......they will still be around......and that does not mean that is "gospel".......I ain't giving MKR the credit for this..........if anything I say they took the easy way out by stepping on the gas......

MKR wanted some "pay back"...........and it looks like they got it......I,with many was sacrificed.......it hurts.......Joe knows that it hurts.......I told him.

Can they do it again next year?........yepper.........should you sell cheap this year to re-coup your dough?........maybe.....it all depends on what you are really doing this for.

Face it.......expect to get hurt ever so often......plan out your breeding programs at the lowest possible dollar and then tell me it still wasn't worth it.

It's worth it BIG TIME.......who here wouldn't like to sell 20 snakes a month for $800 bucks?

Nobody lost their ass here.......Mojaves and Lessers have been around a long time.........the poor Mojaves are survivors.........how many times have we seen their prices batted around?

As for the Lessers.........what can I say...........it's TOO DAMN CHEAP!!........We still have Platties to look forward to.

I could write till the cows come home about this......I've had so many emails and phone calls that it hurts........all wanting me "to do something"..........well here it is............we have several threads on the board and plenty of feed-back.

I should feel crushed the most from all this, but I actually feel "free" from all this..........I've mastered the way this game is played, I'm sure of it now.........

I'm not worried that people are gonna get out or "not spend" at all.......if you can't take the heat........then this is NO WAY the biz for you...........don't even waste your money.

I hope this explains a little of what is actually the motive behind the whole thing.........I ain't sayin' that it's right..........but I do know the motive..........and if the motive is just BS to cover up an "easy sale"..........that's OK too.........like I said.........everyone hangs themselves.........just watch and see.......

People hangin' themselves and getting out of the biz is just what we need right now.........we need more positive actions and less shit to piss us all off..........forums have become nothing but slug-fests as of late...........people are angry at everything.....

MKR always did say that "they sell for less".........
Click to expand...
 
From the above

Ralph states that he is just making an example.... but I think this statement pretty much sums up the whole Clark/Wilbanks/Eric/Ralph..... dirty laundry that is currently being aired


As much as I'd like to smash some people's teeth down their throats.........I can not. So I can resort to crushing another breeder's project the first chance I get.........."force" a breeder with high over-head to make less money.........SQUEEZE them so hard that they can't take the heat and just fold..........( that was an example )
Click to expand...
 
Ralphs Post

Whoa, I never thought that i would agree with Ralph Davis. For me hell has just frozen over ! I agree 100% with Ralphs post on all the back stabbing bullshit that has been going on with the the brotherhood of balls. someone deserves much good karma for this eye opening post. :cool:
 
We all knew the writing was on the wall. A few years back some dealers of some size that grew in the late 80s and early 90s folded for much of the same reasons, now the ball market has reached a head, just where the albino Burms were in say 92. So many people breeding balls now so many different projects. The big guys make new combos but is anyone buying them, proably not when you can buy the animals much cheaper to do the same thing in the near future. Yes some of the big guys may tremble and fold but guys like Ralph, the Sutherlands, and yes even Mike Wilbanks will most likely make it through. Remember they all have other forms of income,they kept their day job. It is the smaller hobby/breeders that will be squeezed hopefully they kept their day jobs. The smaller guys that stick it out are proably breeding for the right reasons, the love of the hobby and not their retirment, and the new H2. The future will be an interesting one.
 
I just think it is funny seeing this thread started by one of the biggest jokes in the entire snake business-High End Herps. Do a search on Bob Clarks forums for some of the dirt behind this fool he cannot even tell you his real name! Scam artists till then end.
 
after reading through all the threads i realized that brian smith who i dealt with and was ripped of from was another person which i verified through a few phone calls.
 
The more I get to know people, the more I love my reptiles. For one thing they don't talk...
 
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