Vincent Vecci/Ultimate Reptiles...

I bought a really sweet high-end tortoise from him this summer, and the transaction went smooth as silk. I received a healthy, quality animal at a reasonable price and am now thinking of contacting him again about another tort. However, after discovering the BOI last month, I am trying to play it safe.

So, any opinions out there, good or bad, on Vince Vecci of Ultimate Reptiles (CA)? Is he as reputable a herp dealer as he seems?

--Lisa L. Waltz

Lisa.... what's the problem?? You said your transaction went "smooth as silk"??? Why are you asking about him now?? If I did a deal with someone, and it went smoothly (as always), I would be pretty insulted if that person asked about me??

....Neil

Simple, Neil... it's called setting the bait. A seller of ill-intent could start with a "good" deal and make the Buyer vulnerable to rip-offs in ensuing deals. Admittedly, it's not a common strategy, but it has been known to happen, especially with expensive items.

Accordingly, I am asking if anyone has heard of this seller, for good or ill.

BTW, I don't think taking reasonable precautions (such as asking for information from the more experienced herpers on the BOI) should be grounds for insult to a named seller when thousands of dollars are involved.

Just my humble opinion.

--Lisa L. Waltz

Lisa.... you've got a valid point! I can certainly appreciate that.... I didn't realize you were talking about big bucks (you didn't mention that).... with that in mind, I really can't blame you for being cautious.... as a matter of fact.... I should probably COMMEND you for coming here and having the guts to post this AFTER a good deal has already been completed??
Have you ever actaully spoke to him personally on the phone?? That's ALWAYS a good idea when purchasing ANYTHING! Especially big stuff....
It's obvious that you know what you're doing, and I apologize if you thought I was degrading you in any way! Good luck with your purchase.... unfortunately, I don't know the man....

....Neil

My only dealing with ultimate reptiles, vince,was a complete disaster. I have never been treated worse. I bought an Aldabra tortoise from him, It was 10" and he asked 1850.00 shipped, I mailed him postal M.O. for the amount, I received the tortoise and it was smashed, It was healed so this was not something that happened recently. I was completely appalled so I called Vince from the airport to tell him the animal was completly unacceptable and I would be returning it for a refund. He replied "if you ship it back I will not pick it up at the airport" He further stated his animals are guaranteed at his discretion only, and that tortoise was not. The tortoise did not even have use of his hind legs. Then to add more insult to injury, He called me 2 days later and said "send that tortoise back and if I can sell it I will give 1/2 your money back. My reply was you are a complete f#####g conterfeit I had given him postal M.O. and now I know I should filed charges. So I learned a good 1850.00 lesson. Somehow in the back of my mind, I know he will be paid back for his sorry conduct.

Lee Watson

Very bad experience with Vince

I would not deal with Vincent Velci. I had a very bad experience with him about nine months ago.
In February 2002, I contacted a guy I know in southern California and decided to but two yearling stars from him. The plan was for me to meet him in Phoenix. A couple of days after I make this plan with him Vince called me. He said that he was a friend of the star breeder and that he had heard I was looking for pancakes. I decided not to get the pancakes that he was selling, and then he mentioned that he had a sexed pair of C.B Indian Star tortoises (5 inch female, 4 inch male). He raved about how beautiful the female was and how large the parents of the stars were. He said that a friend of his bred them, and that he had them since they were hatchlings. I decided to buy them for $1000.
After I talked to him I sent money orders out to the star breeder and Vince. All three of us decided that it would be best if the star breeder brought the pair to Phoenix along with the two yearlings that I had purchased from him. A couple of days before I was supposed to meet the star breeder, Vince called me up and said that he had an extra male that he would also be willing to sell for $300. I told him that I was not interested and he said that he would send me a receipt in the mail.
When I met the star breeder on February 20th he gave me the four stars. The pair both had tape on their back indicating their sex. The “female” was about four inches and one of the most obvious males I had ever seen. He exposed himself almost immediately after I picked him up. The other one was about 4.5 inches, and also a male. They both had a fair amount of shell damage, and were almost definitely wild caught. They both looked awful, their legs were thin, and their eyes were sunken in. They smelled awful (I was already thinking Hexamita). The star breeder also gave me the receipt. I was very surprised when attached to that sheet was a very long list of terms that I had no knowledge about. Apparently Vince had tried to send me the receipt and terms, but he had used an envelope that had previously been addressed to him. This meant that it just got sent back to him because the barcode for his zip code had already been imprinted on the envelope. He had to know that this would happen.
I called him as soon as I got back to my car, and left a message. I finally got a hold of him after I got home. I told him I was very unhappy with them, and he said to bad. He told me that by accepting them I agreed to his terms. If I had known about his terms I would never have bought from him in the first place. One of his justifications for not taking them back was because the stress of shipping them would probably kill them. He also still claimed that they were C.B., but he would not even agree to give my e-mail to the women who bred them. He said that he did not want to disturb her.
I set the stars up in their own room, away from the rest of my collection (which is all C.B.). I set them up on newspaper so that I could monitor their urine and feces. They both had mucous in their nares (I suspected Mycoplasma) and the first time I soaked them they drank a lot. After I pulled them out the water was tinted green. Well, needless to say, I called my vet and got an appointment for February 22nd. The first time I saw their urine it was one of the worst cases of biliverdin I had ever seen. Their urine was literally bright green (this is caused by the breakdown of bile in the liver). There is no way that Vince could not have known about this because they were in the latter stages of biliverdin. Their urine probably would have been tinted green for at least a couple of weeks.
I went to the vet on February 22nd, and sure enough they both had Hexamita parva (a parasite that attacks the liver) and Mycoplasma agassizii (a bacteria that causes runny noses). They both had to be treated with flagyl at the vet’s office, and I had to flush out their nares with a baytril, dexameth, and saline solution every 72 hours for the next nine days. I also had to return in three weeks to get them re-flagyled. There was also evidence that somebody had used panacur on them, because their was nothing alive in the feces except Hexamita (which is not killed by panacur).
I called up Vince again and was very upset. He claimed once again that these animals were a captive bred pair. He also said that he had had them wormed at his vets office. This was interesting for three reasons. The first one being that most people do not worm C.B. tortoises that they have had since they were hatchlings. The second reason this is interesting is that all herpetological vets would be able to identify Hexamita in the stool, and thirdly, most vets do not use panacur (it is not the best thing to use on tortoises). During that phone call he said that he would take the animals back, but would only refund me if he resold them (keep in mind that before I had taken them to the vet he said that they would not survive shipping). I did not like this idea for a couple of reasons. First of all, he told me over the phone that since there was nothing wrong with these animals that he would not continue treating them, which meant that they would almost certainly die. I was not willing to let that happen. Second of all, I seriously doubted that I would ever see any of my money back.
I then tried calling him a few more times, he was never home. He finally called me back and was very mad at me. He said that his vet had never heard of Hexamita and that he did not think that it was a problem. After he yelled at me for a few minutes I handed the phone over to my boyfriend. Vince told him that he would consider a full refund, but that the tortoises would not survive the shipping. My boyfriend them said that we would drive them to La Mirada (which is where Vince lived). This is about twenty hour round trip for us. Vince’s response was that if my boyfriend came anywhere near his house that he would “put a forty-four caliber through your f@#*ing skull”. After that Vince hung up the phone. I had had enough, so I called the La Mirada police and reported the incident, they then told me contact my local police. I then reported it to the local sheriff who took my information. A deputy called me back and I filed an official police report (#020222381). She also said that they would contact the La Mirada police and inform them that Vincent Velci was not to come anywhere near us.
About four days later I received a very long sob letter from Vince. He ramble on about how everyone has to deal with losses, and that he would either refund me $200 or buy back the “female” for $500 (only if she was in the same health as when I received her). I decided to just take the $200. I wrote him back and told him of my choice. He then called me and asked if I would rather take a pair of blue-tongued skinks rather than the $200. My answer was no.
He did finally send me my $200. I also spent about six weeks rehabilitating the stars. They finally started eating after the second dose of flagyl, and their Mycoplasma cleared up. My vet gave them a clean bill of health so I decided to sell them. I was upfront with the buyer about their history, and sold them to him at a good deal. I lost a fair amount of money on the whole deal, but I am glad that the stars are healthy and went to a good home.
In closing, I would never deal with Vince again, and would strongly urge anyone else to not deal with him. I still have all the documents from our transaction (including the receipt, the terms, the envelope, the letter, the vet bills, and my notes.) The whole experience was a costly nightmare, and I feel sorry for any of the animals currently in his collection. One of the things that it says on his terms is that all animals that are sold “meet our standards as if we were keeping them for our own stock!”. I sure hope not, but you never know.

Merri and Lee,

OUCH! That both sucks and blows. I'm so sorry that you received damaged animals and such lousy customer service. However, I do thank you so much for posting your experiences and confirming my darkest suspicions. My own UR tortoise seems fine, but maybe that's only because Vince knows that I'm a lawyer...

In any case, since I don't feel like playing Russian roulette with my money, I'll stick to purchasing any future livestock from reputable dealers like Neil et al.

--Lisa L. Waltz

Vincent Velci-still a good guy to me

Update: got a phone call from Vince. He was very hurt about this thread. I want to offer him my apologies. I got a great deal from him and did not mean to suggest that he in any way cheated me or intended to do so. My aldabra is a fine animal, and Vince gave me a fine deal on it.

--llw

Post-script

By the way: after a long conversation with Vince, I would now feel quite comfortable with buying another high-end tortoise from him!! In fact, when I get the proper permits, I'll be asking him to find me a nice galap!!

--llw

Lisa,
It is your business where you decide to spend your money. But both these horror stories are just that. Alot of people are very friendly and personable on the phone, but once thrown into a circumstance where they have to correct something they've wronged, they show their true colors. If he indeed sent out a previously smashed tortoise that was healed over, and did not mention it to the buyer, that is very bad! If he sent out a parasite infested captive bred tortoise that had been treated with panacur and did not tell you. If he notify's you of terms that are somewhat iffy after a sale and always answers negativity with too bad... I wouldn't touch it. Buyer discretion is advised~ ;-)
Thanks, Tom Baker

The smashed in aldabra that Vince sold you was originally mine. I received it for free quite a few years ago. Vince came into my store and wanted to buy it. I traded him for 2 male freckled monitors, which is a $600 value. He told me he could only sell the tortoise for $1000 becuase of the damage, and honestly it wasn't even worth that. I am sorry to hear he lied to you about it. He also tried to sell us illegal wild caught California Horned Lizards aka horny toads. He will do and say anything to make a $. Vince is a liar and a con artist. He would come into our store and try to sell his animals to our customers. As soon as we walk away from a customer, he would approach them with the same animal for cheaper. Competition is competition, but you should not be doing that inside of someones business. We confronted Vince about this, and he called us the liar. He wrote us a long letter on how he couldn't do business with us any longer and how we would be out of bussiness within a year without him. I justed wanted to say Sorry Vince were still here and you are obviously still trash.

Tony Alles
www.reptileguru.com

I would never do business with Vince Velci. Back in 1997, we were looking to purchase a trio of Speckled Kings. He offered us a trio of hatchlings for $600. We passed on the deal, and it's a good thing we did, because shortly thereafter we purchased a trio of hatchling Speckled Kings from Lloyd Lemke--for $75!

Isis Madec
Isis Reptiles

The Plot thickens....

*Sigh* I am either incredibly gullible or.... Ok, let's recap: last summer I bought a great juvie aldabra tort, caging and supplies for an incredible price from Vince Vechi. It truly seemed too good a deal to be true.

Therefore, when I, as a newbie to BOI, posted a request for opinions on Vechi, some horror stories popped up. I became concerned with having any further dealings with Vince and posted a message to that effect on the BOI.

Why did I post a request after a successful purchase? I was thinking of purchasing another high-end tort from Vince and was worried that I might be in the middle of a subtle scam. The "horror" stories seemed to support this interpretation.

Embarrassingly enough, months after I thus bad-mouthed Vince on the BOI, he called me and was very surprised by the thread (he had just discovered it a few days ago). I explained my concerns and posted a public apology on the BOI because our actual transaction had been fine in and of itself.

As Vince and I talked further, I made it clear that my concern was not with the tort I received (which was a superior animal) but with any future deals. As that was the case, I posted yet another BOI message to clarify the high quality of the aldabra. You see, I felt I owed Vince that because I did not want to hurt his reputation on the basis of my idle speculation about what might happen in any future deals.

I also posted follow up message in which I explained that I felt new confidence in Vince's business ethics and would do business with him again after all.

That's when new Vechi horror stories showed up here at the BOI.

So, what am I and the other BOI members to think now about Vince Vechi?

The simple answer is that I don't know. I simply have no way of deciding who is more credible, Vince or the people who posted horror stories.

In sum, all I can say is that I was treated very well by Vince (that is, he provided an excellent, healthy animal and flawless customer service), but others claim that they were treated badly by him.

The moral of the story? One can ask for advice from the BOI family, but ya have to follow your gut instincts in the end.

So, in the final analysis, without slighting those who posted negative experiences, my instinct tells me to trust Vince. On the other hand, I can understand how others may be wary.

I wish good luck and good business to all herpers and no harm to anyone.

Thanks for listening to my thoughts.

--llw

Mea Culpa

... for some reason, I stupidly keep messing up the spelling on Vincent's name. It is supposed to be "Vincent Velci," not "Velchi" or any other weird permutation of this. My apologies.

--llw

Vincent Velci's Statement Enclosed:

...After I posted the above messages on the BOI, I sent Vince a copy so that he would understand my position. He replied and asked if I would post a message for him on the BOI (as he is not a member of BOI). I explained that, for excellent reasons, WebSlave does not normally permit the posting of second-hand emails. I also added that if Vince was willing to include his current contact info (email addy and name) and a permission statement, that I was pretty sure no one would then have a problem with the post. Accordingly, Vince ([email protected]) responded with the following statement (totally unedited and uncut):

"----- Original Message -----
From: "vincent/julia" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:58 PM
Subject: STATEMENT TO FAUNA CLASSIFIEDS


> Hi Lisa; I believe that many of these internet "chat" stories are
presented for many different motives. After speaking with several
colleagues, I was advised to "not bring myself down to the level of the severely disgruntled". Most of us in the business have felt "taken" at one time or another. We just learn to work around it. Now, it's one thing to be a "wheeler-dealer", and quite another to literally steal or defraud. I can write a thick book on stories such as what appeared in response to your inquiry on me. In looking out for my own customers, I often decide to
"eliminate" reptile sources where I've previously patronized simply because the quantity of "problem" reptiles exceeds a reasonable amount within a reasonable time. It takes experience, which means lots of trials & errors,
and then more experience! It's not easy, since many "re-sellers" are themselves misrepresented. Hence, we all appear bad to the end-buyer. With regards to those
> who complained about me, in the case of Lee Watson & the Aldabra tortoise: Lee told me that he ran a sort of "reptile flea market", and that he wanted to re-sell the 12" Aldabra I had offered. Thus, Lee's stated motive was PROFIT! I would normally sell a 10-12" Aldabra tortoise in VERY GOOD CONDITION for about $3,000-3,600. Thus, after deciding that this tortoise, who had some congenital deformity on the rear portion of it's upper shell
but was seen as otherwise healthy, whoulf sell for about only 1/2 of the normal high retail. In Lee's case this was $1,800. Lee was completely informed about the tortoises condition because he asked me "why so cheap ?" I replied that the deformity is clearly visible, but my vet felt that it should be able to live a normal life. it".Therefore, I sold Lee Watson, a reptile flea market reseller, a young, 10-12", otherwise healthy Aldabra tortoise for approximately one-half (50% discounted) of the normal going
price> for a similar one minus the shell deformity. Lee, you got what you paid for, nothing more, nothing less. My bet is that your angry at me since you thought that I was going to send you a $3,600 Aldabra for 1/2 the price...Right ?? You would have had a boatload of more sympathetic readers if you would have really wanted that tortoise for yourself. In the case of Tony Alles, The Reptile Guru, he was interested in acquiring more dwarf monitors for his shop, but did not have the funds to do so at that time. He
asked me if I wanted to trade for anything else he already had at the shop ? I looked around, and found the 12", somewhat deformed Aldabra sitting in the very rear corner of a tiny cage with no lighting on, and redwoof bark chips used for substrate. The price tagon the glass for the Aldabra was $3,500, marked down to $3,000. This is really interesting since mr. Alles failed to
mention this in his recent complaint about this situation!!! He
> told me that he has had no potential buyers at all...not even offers!! So, I offered him two different young adult monitors which he wanted. He seemed very pleased with the deal, and he never complained about it until now, several years later ??? Also, I offered mr.Alles Mexicos Horned lizards (phroynosoma asio, not California's as he stated! To the inexperienced young dealers like Alles, he probably could not tell the difference without book references. This is understandable. As for speaking
to other customers in his store, I was asked by the customers themselves for help which either of the Alles brothers were unable to provide. You know, i have to really wonder, if this experience was so bad for Mr. Alles, then why has he waited over three years to mention it ? Also, why was Alles asking
$3,000 for the Aldabra when he didn't even feel that it was worth $1,000 ? Not good business!!
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "vincent/julia" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 12:34 AM
Subject: CONTINUED RESPONSE TO YOUR INQUIRY RESPONSES

> Finally, in the case of Merri Donovan, I would say the following: Based upon our transaction with the Star tortoises---Try to find ANY other national reptile dealer (who you don't personally know any better than you did me) and try to get back a voluntary refund of $200 on $1,000 from them. I'm going through a matter right now with a (former) supplier who sent me a $1,300 lizard that never ate and died within one week---jammed with
parasites!! He claimed it was captive hatched. He also claimed that I exceeded the 48-hr claim period for any refund or credit. Now,you kept those Star tortoises for a few months then presumably sold them (according to a close source of mine). Also, I was informed that you & your boyfriend actually do QUITE A BIT of internet buying then re-selling ? Is this your "hobby" or your "business" ? Be sure to report all your income!!! Good
Luck. I HEREBY GIVE MY CUSTOMER, LISA WALTZ FULL PERMISSION TO RE-RELEASE ALL OF> THE AFOREMENTIONED TO FAUNA CLASSIFIEDS. SINCERELY, VINCENT J. VELCI, ULTIMATE REPTILES, USA>"

Postscript to WebSlave: if it was inappropriate for me to have posted this message for Mr. Velci, please delete it (and accept my sincere apologies) and let me know ASAP. I do not wish to break any rules or become a bother to this interesting and informative forum. Thank you in advance.
--llw

Let me get this straight,

A. I get two male Star Tortoises, that were supposed to be a 1.1

B. I get two w.c. Star Tortoises, that were sold to me as captive bred.

C. Both "healthy captive bred" tortoises had RNS and were in the last stages of hexamita, a liver parasite that would soon kill them.

I contacted Vince as soon as got to my car, which was about five minutes after I got the stars. When I made him aware of all my problems with the stars, he insulted me and later threatened to kill my boyfriend (there is a police report filed with the Pima County Sheriff, for those who are interested). Never once did he offer to refund my money on the whole deal.

So Vince you justify all these actions to yourself because I resold the tortoises after they had received several hundred dollars worth of vet care. I find in interesting that you never dispute that they were both males, or wild caught. You just try to make personal attacks. What I did with the tortoises after they were rehabilitated is not your business.

Thanks,
Merri

You've Got To Be Kidding

Lisa,

You initially posted saying you had one successful transaction with this person but yet still fealt the need to inquire about him. Several people respond with terrible stories and you'd still consider dealing with him? All I can say is good luck because IMHO if someone's a good guy then ALL of their transactions are golden NOT just a chosen few. Again, I wish you luck but it sounds like Russian roulette to me. Why look for trouble when there are so many reputable dealers around?

Doin' a Little Dancin' There?

Sounds like you're dancing there vince. Were the tortoises in question captive born or not? It seems highly unlikely that anyone who would take the time and effort to breed them would be so lax as to let something so bad as heximita infect them. Just how do you suppose they got it? What about the RPN? Did they pick it up during shipping?

And as far as them both being males, how did that happen? Very interesting that you couldn't tell the difference when you shipped but could when you offered them for sale.

I also have a problem with your"close sourse". Like I tell my kids," If you can't name a name, don't bother with the story." Unsubstantiated facts are just that, facts without substance, useless.

It sounds to me like you tried to pull a fast one and got caught. More facts from you would certainly help. Not copied and pasted by someone else. It's not hard to have the ability to post here in person, if you can email your clients you can do the same here. That would go a lot further toward lending you any credance at all.

Wes Pollock

If you're in this business/hobby long enough, you WILL have deals go south on you, whether as a buyer or a seller. The mark of a "Good Guy" is not having a spotless record; it is how the bad deals get handled.

Note to Lisa:

Threatening to but a .44 in someone's skull for wanting to hand return a defective animal . . .is NOT a "Good Guy" response!

Obviously, that should read " . . .to put a .44 in . . ."

I hate having fingers bigger than the keys on my keyboard allow space for!!!