Tony Hurts Genetic Guarentee??? (HETS)

I would like to call upon other members of the reptile comunity for some advice. Let me start by saying this was pretty much my last hope in resolving a issue I am currently having with another gentelman by the name of Tony Hurt AKA Snake Evolutions out of Arlington, TX. I purchased a 100% Het female albino from Tony on 04-01-05 for the purchase price of $1100.00 The animal was shippied to me a few days later and arrived just fine. She fed very well for me and I successfully bred her to one of my albino's later that year and she gave me six good eggs in early 06. I kept Tony up to date throughout the whole process IE when she ovulated and laid the clutch. When the clutch hatched I did not get any albino's. So I was disappointed to say the least but I contacted Tony and told him the outcome and he said that I just had really bad odds and he was positive next she would do much much better for me. Still just to make sure I sent Tony a few pics of the female just so he could match her up with his records just to make sure she was infact a 100% Het albino. He responded back with an email stating that she indeed the same snake he sold me and she is defiantly a 100% Het albino. So I asked him again That he defiantly is the one that produced this female and he stated once more that he is in fact the one that produced her. Well I took his advice and bred her again this year to a albino male and once again she ovulated and had a clutch of 7 good eggs. I kept Tony notified throughout the whole process once again. Well a few weeks ago the eggs hatched and once again No albino's? So I called Tony with no luck. I left messages every day and I have sent countless emails asking for Tony to call me. He sent me a few emails saying he will call me but I never received a call. I have called him at all hours of day and still I get his voicmail and thats it. He emailed me a few times saying he tried calling me and I did not answer but I have never missed a call from him and I never have a message from him? I know if I was trying to call someone that really needed to speak to them I would leave a message so there is no question that I called. Well I know this is a rather long post already but I would like everyoneto know exactly what I am dealing with here. So onto his genetic guarantee. When I purchased this animal I just got done proving a Rick Miller het albino out that did not prove out, So I told Tony that I was only looking for Hets that were produced by him I was not buying any third party hets anymore. I was not going down that road again. He reassured me that he produced the animal and gave me a guarantee of if it did not prove out he would refund my purchase price I would get to keep the female (now a proven breeder) and I would get a albino of my choice. Well I bought the animal thinking that none of that was going to be necessary anyway. He assured me that it is a het. Well now Tony emails me saying that he would replace her with another het albino after she lays eggs for him or he will buy back the female for my purchased price of $1100.00. I feel that this is not fair at all he is not sticking to his original guarantee and is more or less asking for a intrest free loan of $1100.00 for two years. So he is not out anything. Meanwhile I should have produced albino's two years in a row. In early 06 albinos were selling for 1500.00+ and I hatched out six eggs from albino to het. And this year another seven eggs. So now Tony's latest email is stating he thinks she is still a het and she will do better for me next year? So my question is What is fair in this situation? Was the standered two year breeding rule enough? I know this post is very long winded and I apologize but I felt that these are all facts that needed to be covered and I am sure I am probably leaving something out but I will add to the post as I can think of them. Please feel free to ask any questions you might have. I will also email Tony to let him know that this thread is started so he can come here state anything he feels is appropriate. Thanks again Paul Wyble at Steel City Exotics

I know nothing about the hets Tony sells but these posts came up in a unrelated thread. Maybe, Tony can address them all at once.The information seems relevant to the questions you had about the animals he sells.
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gmherps said:

Tony merely brokers everything he sells. He breeds a few BP's here and there but other than that he does nothing.

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gmherps said:

And not that it matters but the snake was merely btokered by Hurt. He doesn't and didn't breed boas during that time. The snake more than likely came from Jimmy Horton of www.texhiss.com

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Dennis Hultman said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but I was under the impression he bred the BRB’s, I have purchased from him.

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gmherps said:

Not too sure Dennis. I have been to his house many times and always saw babies but never any breeders. Unless his "partner" has them, I don't know about it.

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The fair thing, Paul, is for tony to stick to his original agreement.

Do you have it in writing?

unfortunately the guarantee was discussed via a telephone conversation. When I emailed Tony about the guarantee he never denied it just offered something else. And as far as Tony producing the animal in question I have asked that question 10 plus times and he always replied that he did in fact produce this animal. Paul

Well, with nothing in writing, you've got to rely on what tony thinks of his reputation.

You're pretty solid Paul, everywhere I see your name it's always all good. I'd hit every site that has a forum for it and post the same info you did here. Enough pressure from enough quarters and you MIGHT get him to do what he told you he would. Also, learn this lesson. GET IT IN WRITING.

You might want to break it up into 2 or 3 paragraphs though, makes for easier reading.

I hope it works out for you Paul. After we both got burned on the Sean Brady Het Albinos I would hate to see you get burned again!

Believe me that is the last thing I want to happen. And as far as the grammer and punctuation. I apologize 1000 times LOL. I was in a little bit of a hurry I had to leave to pick my daughter up. I am hoping Tony comes here and sheds some light on the situation. Thanks again Paul

Paul, have you made Tony aware of this thread? Maybe he will come reply, or at least open lines of communication with you to get this resolved.

Yes I emailed him a link to this thread the moment I posted it. Paul

Also how many of you guys have bred a homozygous animal to a het for two consecutive years with no homozygous animals being produced? With fairly nice size clutches of course? Paul

I havne't done it with ball pythons, but I have with kings and corns. I've never had two consecutive years of no albinos if the genes were present in both parents.

Of course even a small clutch of king or corn eggs is twice the size of an average ball clutch.

Paul, when a het does not prove out two years in a row, your out a lot more than just your original purchase price. $1100 is nothing compared to what put into the animal in food, housing and lost production. Your 13 eggs should have produced you 6 albinos over the last two years. Value those albinos at $1200 average and your out $7200. Thats what any and all het guarantees should be, the value of the loss in production you suffered. That is how I guarantee my hets and the only terms in which I will purchase hets from anyone.

I was burned by top shelf with many others 4 years ago and ever since I only buy hets from breeders that are willing to meet my terms in writing. Last year I bought an adult het pied from another breeder in TX, breed her to a male pied and when she did not prove out, I held him liable and collected $10,000 in his 06 production for my lose in pied production.

You can only hope to collect what was originally agreed upon, but don't cut yourself short in the future, while this is and should be a hobby for most, the time and money involved elevates to a small business no matter how you look at it. Ensure your treated fairly, ensure that you buy from people that have the resources to back up what they sell and that will be around to back up their promises. I'm 100% for the little guy and would rather buy from them as the service is often much better than several of the big boys, just because of the amount of time they have, however you need to also ensure that they can properly back their animal. We are now seeing many jobbers selling high end animals and it scares the hell out of me as life is great until a $4,000 - $10,000 animal is lost or dies during shipping and they have no way of replacing it so be careful.

Take care and good luck,

Neil Golli

Al guetznow had a similar situation with Ron Radloff too which many felt that it was fair that Al return the fake hets and Ron reimburse him. I still feel this is not fair at all and I think Tony owes your money back and you keep the females at the very least. I think that if you are going to sell second hand hets you better be ready to have to back them up and do whatever it takes to make the situation right, your reputation depends on it.

I know nothing about snakes,

but their should be some universal form (at least in this country) that guarantee's what is being sold, the genetics and the guarantee. I was just wondering if an attorney were to write something up that would require the seller to insure that what is being sold is in fact what is being offered for sale! Let this be a standard for any sale of this type.

How do you expect anyone to live up to their end of the bargain if nothing is in writing. What if the person is no longer in the trade?

The exposure to offer for sale a false sense of security based on future offspring is a very dangerous proposition. Their really is no recourse unless you are dealing with a guaranteed breeder of quality. What also has to be taken into consideration is that, "you get what you pay for" Just as long as their are no avenues of redress 2 years down the road, and no written confirmation that can be used in a court of law, (that is federal court, ) the cost factor makes it an unworthy case, and the seller gets away with it.....again ! These things are done because he (the seller) has time on his side.

wyblep said:

Also how many of you guys have bred a homozygous animal to a het for two consecutive years with no homozygous animals being produced? With fairly nice size clutches of course? Paul

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It would be alot more likely with a het X het breeding, I really can't see anyone getting that bad of odds 2 years in a row on a homo x het pairing.

I'd agree that it seems highly improbable that you would get 0 albinos out of 13 eggs when breeding a homo x het. Not impossible but you'd have to seriously be pissing off the gods for it to happen. Perhaps there was a tub mix up and your het isn't really a het - perhaps the mom (that produced your het) retained sperm from a previous breeding - Perhaps Tony isn't good at keeping track of all his animals????

Anyway - Tony should be stepping up to the plate with more than just a replacement animal.

I hope this turns out well for you - keep us posted.

The chance of not producing a visible albino, out of 13 eggs, by breeding albino x het is 0.0122%. That is you have about a one in 10,000 chance of that happening.

For you bio stats/science people I ran an exact binomial test of goodness-of-fit and found his results of this breeding to be significant (P = 0.000244141) supporting the claim that the female is not a het.

Wow those are some astonishing numbers. I personally do not feel she is a het. I just wish Tony would come on here and answer some these questions or at least open some form of communication with me. And as far as being reimbursed I do feel that I should be compensated for my production loss. I feel that I should get my original purchase price back. and I should at least get a albino for each year that I bred her. I would be willing to give Tony the female back of course. I told Tony that I feel that this is what I feel is fair and he said via email that he thinks I am trying to take advantage of me and the offer he made me to buy her back for the price I paid is only good until June 1'st? Well I hope everyone who reads this thread thinks long and hard before they spend any money with Tony Hurt and Snake Evolutions. Paul

True Hets

I will only post on here one time. So many things get posted on here that are simply not true.

The female in question...according to Paul has not produced albinos...is a het. I produced her myself.

If I had any question about her genetics I would not have sold her as a 100% het. I provide all my customers with quality animals and hope they are successful with there breeding efforts. I am very sorry Paul had bad odds but I can’t guarantee odds. Because I felt bad for Paul and as a customer service for his misfortune I offered to either buy the female back or replace her with another animal.


Snake Evolutions only sells quality animals and appreciate others who do the same thing. We breed Ball Python Morphs, Jungle Carpet, IJ Jags, Boa Morphs and Brazilian Rainbow Boas. We are not a broker.

Have a great day
Tony Hurt
Snake Evolutions

garweft said:

The chance of not producing a visible albino, out of 13 eggs, by breeding albino x het is 0.0122%. That is you have about a one in 10,000 chance of that happening.

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Its a 1 in 8,911 chance actually but still you definitely get the point. Theres such thing as bad luck, but I think you surpassed the whole bad luck spell after not producing any the first year. Hopefully you at least held back hets that your producing, because I think its pretty obvious what you have isn't one.