Questions Regarding DOA Procedures

Hi folks,

Hope I am placing this post in the correct forum. This is not meant to be a bad guy post, but rather as a request for advice or suggestions for the business situation I am in.

I recently had a DOA shipment of BCI arrive on my doorstep, much to my dismay. It appeared to be from either the incorrect type of, or faulty heat packs, as the animals appeared to be partially frozen.

Anyhow, I contacted the breeder within the hour, including sending out pictures of the animals upside-down (also sent pictures right-side-up a bit later on for identification), and was told I was to receive a 110% refund, as per their terms. The box the animals were shipped in did not include a receipt, feed/shed records, or any other document (as promised) that showed I have actually made a purchase. I relayed that information and was told that I would get my refund first, but that it would be appreciated if the animals were sent back after the money arrived, which was fine.

I have not received any refund. Now, after numerous phone calls from my side, it has been requested that I ship the animals back to them first, in the box they arrived in, before I am sent the refund. This breeder has proven themself to be less than honest so far, or at least irresponsible, and I do not feel comfortable with shipping the animals back without my refund, or at least a receipt. After several lengthy conversations with the breeder's partner, I have been told that I will be sent a receipt, which should hopefully arrive over the next few days.

Now, for the questions: To be honest, I am still wondering if they are trying to screw me somehow. So, I would appreciate if some folks more experienced with DOA transactions (this is my first) can make any recommendations.

Once I receive a receipt (if it ever arrives), would it be recommended for me to ship the animals back or insist on the refund first as originally agreed? If I do not get a receipt from them, should I still ship the animals back or refuse? Is it normal to insist on shipping animals back in the original packaging? I have it here, exactly as it was when I opened the box, but it just seems odd. I was under the impression that normal procedure in the business was for the animal to be shipped back a.s.a.p. and then a refund or replacement was to be sent back to the buyer, but in this situation, I feel that I would have had nothing to show for my loss but the money order receipt stub that I filled out myself.

Anyhow, the way this is going, you will likely see a bad guy post soon on the BOI. But for now, I am still trying to work this out with them, hoping it is all a big misunderstanding on my part and that they still have every intention of coming through one way or another.

Thanks ahead of time for whatever advice you can provide,

Lauren Rost

Laren,

If I were you I would save all e-mail exchange you had with them, take additional pictures of the dead snakes, box in which they were shipped (if you have a good camera even a picture of the address of origin and destination in the box), as well as any other shipping information such as tracking number printed out from the web, and/or saved in your computer.

With all that information in your hands I would think it's safe to ship everything back. It is common practice for most dealers and breeders to request return of the animals before they send a refund.

Good luck!

Sorry I mispelled your name Lauren.

Regards.

Lauren.... They're giving you a load of crap!.... I've been doing this full-time for 5 years, and I've shipped out a LOT of packages (42 this month alone!).... I've had 7 DOA's in 5 years.... 2 of which were THIS WEEK!!.... The two that were DOA this week (remember, today is only Thursday), the buyers ALREADY have their REPLACEMENT animals IN THEIR HANDS!!.... One was an Argentine baby boa, and the other was an adult Male Jackson Chameleon.... I still can't figure out why.... but, it DOESN'T MATTER!!.... What they purchased was NOT received alive.... what's so hard about that??.... If they were HONEST, you would have already had your refund, or replacement!.... Their excuses are ridiculous, and just another stalling technique!....
Of course, no matter how many emails you save, it won't make a damn bit of difference if they choose to screw you.... You're not going to sue them??.... You know it, and I know it, so, there's really only two options that you have.... 1. Hope they see the light and do the right thing, or, 2. Put this thread on the BOI and maybe SHAME THEM into doing the right thing.... Of course, this thread SHOULD have been on the BOI to start with, because it will PROBABLY end up, you having to mention their names.... which you SHOULD do, ya know!

....Neil

The two that were DOA this week (remember, today is only Thursday), the buyers ALREADY have their REPLACEMENT animals IN THEIR HANDS!!.... One was an Argentine baby boa, and the other was an adult Male Jackson Chameleon.... I still can't figure out why.... but, it DOESN'T MATTER!!....

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Neil,

This last week was probably one of the worsts in the year for shipping reptiles (particularly across all the central US) regardless of how careful you were with packaging + heat pack inclusion. Daytime temperatures were in the single digits, with record lows for a lot of states (not to mention the snowstorm in the east coast). On wednesday there was at least a one-hour delay and cancelations of several flights accross the country. We do have an incoming shipment that has been postponed until next week, as we were - 4 on Tuesday morning.

Regards.

Thanks for the advice, guys. I really appreciate your imput. It turns out that I, apparently, do not even need to worry about shipping the animals back as I still have not received any paperwork from them.

Anyhow.. I posted on the BOI about them as was suggested. It can be seen in the "Bob Kite & Odyssey Reptiles (BAD GUYS)" thread, if you are interested.

Regards,

Lauren Rost

Daniel.... since you brought it up.... the two DOA's this week died from TOO MUCH HEAT!!.... Unfortunately, you could have spread them on your toast!.... The replacements were sent with only ONE 40-hour pack instead of TWO, and they made it perfectly!.... just, obviously, don't use TWO 40-hour packs with delicate animals....

I've even UPDATED the Guarantee on my site, to reflect a SEVEN DAY "Health" Guarantee.... go check it out.... this guarantee has to be one of the BEST in the industry.... and, from NOW ON, if the customer wants to return something, they'll get a full refund immediately!....

As far as returning the dead animals.... I have NEVER asked someone to return a DOA.... it defeats the purpose (unless, of course, we're talking about a very expensive item).... why pay for the extra shipping??....

....Neil

.... the two DOA's this week died from TOO MUCH HEAT!!....

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For that to happen it should have been an unusually small box. I have shipped and received snakes (with temperatures in the 40's) using 2 heat packs and never a problem. As we have described in the past there has to be ventilation under the flaps and in all eight corners of the box (punctured with a sharp object, such as a pencil). Now, with temperatures in the single digits and teens tops, I don't think a couple of heat packs should have killed them.

.... The replacements were sent with only ONE 40-hour pack instead of TWO, and they made it perfectly!....

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hmmmm...difficult to tell. It could have been either that, or that the outside temperatures or handling by the carrier differed during the second shipping.

just, obviously, don't use TWO 40-hour packs with delicate animals....

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Boa constrictor occidentalis, the argentine boa, is considered among the hardiest species in the constrictor group.

As far as returning the dead animals.... I have NEVER asked someone to return a DOA.... it defeats the purpose (unless, of course, we're talking about a very expensive item).... why pay for the extra shipping??....

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Well, I guess there has to be a way to verify the animals are in effect dead. I agree that a picture will probably be enough proof.

about the DOAs

i'm not going to post anything bad about "bob kite, odyssey reptiles, and the per say buisness partner"---(i have sent an email to lauren as to why and explained why i will not post negatively about them)---you may find out by emailing me or searching tkexotics on the search link for this site, then it should be clear as to why.

as for the DOA matter. i too have had two DOAs occuring last week (must not have been a good week for some). probably being my mistakes, i'll admit that, but nobody's perfect. i hated that it happened for i love herps as well as any animal.

the DOA's occured this past friday, 2-28-2003, i have just sent out the refund checks today (5 days later, and kept in contact as to when i was mailing the refunds). i have had computer problems (i know redundant from what i've read, but mine is just a hard drive failing), causing my computer to freeze and then not boot back up, but i still contacted the two other receiving ends and have kept in contact. as for the receipt thing, i sent receipts to both persons. i could've asked for the animals back, but i chose not to put the buyers through any more trouble and the cost of shipping. i understand, how some things may go wrong, hence it did snow here last night (6 inches so i'm told) and two weekends before that (12 inches in des moines, iowa--mostly gone and melted) and i live in the country so i know about the no plowing of gravel roads for a while. but i will say, that all the while, i made sure i kept in contact. i guarantee live arrival, if a DOA occurs, as did happen, i require myself to send an immediate refund upon pictures sent. i have worked to resolve my problems with the two DOAs, and all is well i'm assuming. i'm hoping that this works out for you lauren and good luck.

to bob: i'm not trying to start anything, i'm just posting my experiences with DOA's. i know we don't get along, never really have for the past 1.5 years. so for the involved's sake, i'm letting you know that i'm just posting on the DOA matter and not posting on you.

to jeff: i believe that you may not have known about this, from what i've been told in person by an in-law. if so, it is true that this matter is hurting you, as well as bob, for the fact that the snakes were not clearly bought from bob kite, but rather through the name of odyssey reptiles.

~~~~Thanks for your time in reading what I had to say about this matter of DOAs. I have had my bad experiences, and have learned from them; also, in my opinion, I do not see any reason for the delaying of a prompt refund.~~~~Karen