Pat Kane of Kane Zoological ... BAD GUY TO DO BUSINESS WITH!!!

Well, When will I learn not to accept checks over the amount of $10??? I was silly enough to ship Pat Kane 2 sizeable shipments totaling $2639.00 COD, to which he paid with 2 company checks from Kane Zoological. Yep, you guessed it... Both checks bounced! This was in December 2003. We have been trying to work with Pat to clear this up, but he is consistantly untruthfull about what he claims he is going to do to rectify the problem. We were even going to let him send us animals, and he offered computers etc., but keeps telling us he is going to ship on such and such a date, and of course that is just another of his many lies to buy more time. He will not answer his phone, unless we block our number so he does not know it is us calling. The few times he does bother to return phone calls, it is several days latter (even though he PROMISED me he would return my calls within 24 hours). We have done all we could do to give him a chance to do the right thing, but he refuses to work with us. Just lie after lie to stall and get more time.
We just collected on a bad $1200 check from someone else, after gettin a warrant for their arrest. This person had to pay us in full, plus an additional 5%, plus get arrested on a felony warrant, spend a night in jail, spend $500 on a $5,000 bond, Rent a car for 2 days, get a motel for one night, and pay a speeding ticket he got on the way down to pay us our money. I can't believe Pat Kane thinks this mess is worth it.
Well, we are having a felony warrant issued for Pat Kane as well. He will be arrested, and have to appear in Florida, have a felony conviction, have to pay us the full amount plus 5%.....and so on. On the last case, we asked the state attorney to dismiss the charges after we were paid in full, but I won't do that again. Pat knows of the case with the other person (as I told him all the details), and still wants to call my bluff. It costs me nothing to have him put where he belongs (in jail), and although I don;t enjoy that, what other alternatives do I have, just lay down on $2600??? I don't think so.

If you do business with Pat Kane of Kane Zoological, please be carefull, and only accept cash or money orders. If he will try to rip us off, he will get you too, given the chance. I am going to do all I can to see that others are protected from him.

P.S.- Invoices, e-mails etc. are available to be posted. If that is the proper procedure, please let me know.

Hi Ray. I hate to say I told you so, but I think you were warned by two other people to not do business with that kid. I remember you said that he was ok on the first couple of shipments you sent him, but I knew he would get you sooner or latter. Sorry to hear that that has come to pass. I know you are getting out of the reptiles business (with the exception of hots), but you should never be hesitant to listen to others with years in the biz.

I hope everything works out for you. Say Hi to Ricky for me.

Yeah, you all were right in this case, but I try to give everyone a fair chance. We all screw up at some point in our lives, but we should correct our mistake, and learn from it. I wish I had the chance that we have given Pat when it came to some of my mistakes. It is hard to believe that he would chose such a permanet mark on the rest of his life over being a man about this. All we have asked from him is honesty, and for him to stop avoiding us, neither of which he seems to be a man about doing. I realize that he is only 18 or 19, but he always SEEMED mature on the phone, and was always adult-like on the phone. Obviously he fooled us. Being a former police officer, I often have better intuition about people like him, but not in this case. Now he will have a felony record (which is public information), and even if he beats the rap, he won't beat the ride. He still has untill the judge signs the warrant to clear this up, after that I will not drop the charges, and he can get what is coming to him. Is all this worth it to him? Who can understand the mind of the common criminal?

Thanks for your advice (I got your e-mail this evening, and will call you tomorrow).
Blessings

Pat Kane-BAD

I'll never do business with him again either. I sent him $250 worth of spiders and he was supposed to ship me the same value in trade the day he received my shipment. He gave me the biggest run around I have ever gone through! He kept telling me every day that he shipped the T's and he either would give me a bogus tracking number ot no tracking number, I can't remember now, but I waited at home every morning for at least 4 days, thinking my animals would arrive that day, then worrying when they didn't. Anyway, I finally just told him to pay pal me $285 ($250 for the spiders, $35 for shipping) and he did the same thing again, telling me he would pay pal me in 5 minutes, etc etc. Finally my husband got tired of hearing me bitch about it and he called Pat himslef. I am not sure what he told him but I do know I got my payment about 10 minutes after they got off the phone

Oh, one thing I did not know when I intitially made a deal with Pat is that he was very young, I think he was 16 at the time. I never would have dealt with him if I had known this, but I didn't find out until later.

I'm sorry I don't have much to add other than good luck. But I am a little upset over the age comment someone made. So he was sixteen? Does that mean every sixteen year old will rip you off? I don't think age is his problem, he's just a bad seed. I'm young, 20 in fact, I've been on the board since I was 18. I have never screwed anyone on a deal, always paid, always traded in a timely fashion. I've heard of plenty of 30 and 40 year old men screwing people over here also. I'm not trying to cause an arguement but I wouldn't want someone to not sell or trade with me because I'm young. I work, I own my house, and I should be given the same respect as someone twice my age, unless I have earned myself a bad reputation. I guess I kinda rambled here. Best of luck getting your money. I don't think his number in age is the problem, sounds more like the number of brain cells.

Seanna-

Nope, not saying every 16 year old will rip you off, not at all. What I said was:

I think he was 16 at the time. I never would have dealt with him if I had known this, but I didn't find out until later.

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Meaning, I personally would not have sent him my animals up front in the manner that I did had I known he was a minor. Why? Because I have always been under the impression that when an adult purchases something form a minor, or goes into a contract with a minor, it is essentially not worth "the paper it is written on", meaning if I were to have sued him for non payment or because i did not receive my goods I would have been S.O.L. I could be wrong on this but it has always been my understanding of the law.

SEANNA, your right, 16 years old

can manage resposibilities sometimes better that 60 year olds, but we are talking about a felony here, and this kid may be smart enough to realize that he may be beyond the grasp of the law.

So here is my suggestion, go after the parents...........find out who the checking account really belongs to. Find out why a 16 year old can write checks for almost $ 3,000 with impunity.

Secondly, go to the bank and have the checks protested. That will provide all the necessary paperwork to build up a nice case of fraud showing that the monies were not their before he wrote the checks. But I would hold the parents responsible, just like the record industry hold the parents responsible when the pirate songs off the internet.

I don't think his number in age is the problem, sounds more like the number of brain cells.

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Age is not really the issue, BUT it may be a contributing factor in his case. I was a police officer at the age of 19, which was not well accepted in the community, so I am all for young people getting started right away in the business world. I knew how old Pat Kane was when I started doing buisness with him because I asked him after he had told me he wanted a shipment of scorpions we just got in, then would not returm my calls or e-mails for about a week. This and other things made me think he was very young, and not so business smart, so I asked him his age (I believe he was almost 18 at that time). We have had several dealings with him that for the most part went ok. We were willing to work out this last one with him, but we are not going to wait around for years while he continues to lie and avoid calls. We WOULD have accepted small payments, but can not at this point because it would void the arrest warrant.

Jerry, I can not hold tha parents responsible for the bad checks he wrote me because he was an adult at the time of the transaction. But thank you for the advise.

People like Pat Kane give young herpers a bad name. I myself am 19, going on 20 on the 27th of this month and I for one think this kind of behavior is deplorable.

RAY, it all depends

on who is on the checking account. Several years ago, I had given my son his own account while he was in college. But we were on the account as well. My son ran into a problem and stopped payment on the check that pertained to a mountain bike, anyhow without getting into to much detail, the company attempted to sue us because it was our account even though it had my sons name on it. .............so you never can tell.

As you say, it may also be a dead issue, but you may want to check it out anyway. The best of luck. JERRY

Okay, I just wanted to make sure we weren't forgetting that us young ones are the future of herping!! I hope all this gets worked out and you get your money. it has always amazed me what people can pull and still look in the mirror. It's a shame what some people have done to the reptile industry, both legally and morally. Its a scary thing to know any person you deal with can basically rob you in the blink of an eye. I wish there was a way to help you, I'm sure that money has many better uses than his pocket. Best of luck, and watch out everyone we are back in the herp world, LOL

For the record, Pat JUST turned 16. Therefore, he is a minor and and legal charges against him, especially criminal, will be tricky. However, as a minor, he cannot have a business account and his parents - assuming they are the actual account holders - would be the ones to be held responsible.

Also, although I will not defend Pat's actions since I have had plenty of problems with him over the last year and a half, I will say that with regards to my transactions with him he has never failed to hold up his end of a bargain. He has always been good at staying in communication with me and making up for any delays, mistakes, or anything else. Perhaps that is because I am a well known dealer with 22 years in business, but I just mention it to suggest to those who are having problems to keep the pressure on. In my experience, he will rectify the situation (although it may take an unreasonable effort and amount of time) as long as he knows you are not to be trifled with.

I started in business when I was 19, but age shouldn't have anything to do with these problems (except for the obvious fact that he cannot enter into a legally binding contract). Some people defend him because of his age, others discount and denegrate him because of his age, but in the end he is doing business with obvious parental support and perhaps any course of action should involve an attempt to contact those that are legally responsible for his actions - his parents.

Just my .02

well MICHAEL, it seem to make

sense to me when you write out two checks totaling almost
$ 3,000. you are using a legal instrument, and their are liabilities attached to these checks if things dont go right.

If in fact you are correct about his age, I would get an attorney and threaten to sue his parents. Even if his parents were not respsonsible, I would still sue them!

Eventually someone their is going to get the message.

Pat Kane...bad kid

yeah good to hear that there's more people out there that got screwed by Pat. I ordered a simple blondi to test him out since i had never done business with him before and it took nearly 2 months to get it! He kept giving me crap about how the post office had screwed up and how they had sent him a report on the situation that he told me he would send, you guessed it, tommorow. I finally got my T and then he wanted me to pay him for the spider that he supposedly had sent over a month earlier. I told him no and that since he hadn't sent anything before the spider i actually received that there was no way in hell i was going to pay him for something i never received.
About 2 months later i thought i might try him out again and ordered around $500 worth of spiders from him. shame he never lived up to the promises he said, he didn't even try to make good excuse this time. He said he had sent them and that he would get me the tracking number within the hour...then he admitted to never sending them by the next day when i should have received them. i mean, he was completely lying to me on the phone and on e-mail, completely lying about everything. I waited and waited but this time i had expected something like this and told him i was paying C.O.D. it never came, never, and now when i call him he doesn't answer the phone unless i block my number, deja vu?
I don't think so, i just think Pat Kane is continually getting himself in over his head and not expecting any consequences, to bad for him, it's coming from what i read.
-T.J.

Re: well MICHAEL, it seem to make

KNOBTAIL said:

sense to me when you write out two checks totaling almost
$ 3,000. you are using a legal instrument, and their are liabilities attached to these checks if things dont go right.

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Of course there is a legal liability to writing bad checks - I was just pointing out that the minor writing them would not be responsible, the parents who "co-signed" the account would be.

KNOBTAIL said:

If in fact you are correct about his age,

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There's no "if" about it. I have had a business relationship with Pat for some time, both when he worked at Regal Reptiles and more recently with his own business. We have discussed many things including his age. He only recently turned 16. He sounds much older on the phone and I dealt with him for quite some time before I discovered how young he is.

Sheesh, what are the labor laws like in the state he lives in? If he only just turned 16 but has held a job @ Regal Reptiles prior to starting his own business.....he must have started working at 14 or so??

Which brings up another point: there is reference to him having his own business, but is Kane Zoological a legal entity? If so, someone of legal age must be affiliated.

Pat probably just made up a company name much like Ricky Lewis did with J-Ville Reptiles "Incorporated." Sheesh.....not only can kids today be dishonest but they're obviously not very bright either.

another bad issue with pat kane

if need be, i can supply prrof of fraud in dealing with pat kane to further prosecute him. we had a partial trade/cash deal worked out and i was to send him $115 worth of scorpions along with a $114 money order! i too was warned not to deal with him but as ray stated, everyone gets a fair chance even after warnings. everone was totally right in saying "you'll learn from experience with him"!!! low and behold, he got my scorps and money order as promised but refused to send what was owed to me (about 12 diffrent scorpions) after delay in shipment time and time again, he finaly refunded me $114 as he promised because i did get ahold of him to say i wanted to back out of the deal because of the shipping delays!! the other $115 he owes is still un-payed and he refuses to answer or contact me via phone or email!! little does 16 year old pat kane know, i work for the city at the police department and steps have been taken in a cival suit against him!! his time will come just like to late, very un-great , kevin allen peters of california (for those of you who know what i am talking about). yes, a 16 year old will not face adult criminal charges but will face diffrent punishments!! i have a few vacation days comeing up pretty soon and i think i know what i am going to do!! i've never been to rhode island before.....i bet it's pretty nice there!! lol.
all the luck in your prosecution of pat kane!
rowdy kent. new world reptiles. [email protected]

the answer with this kid, is to get a

judgement against him. Not that it will do you any good at the moment, but as he gets older, it will catch up to him, and when he realizes when he applies for any type of credit even a checking account may turn out to be nightmare for him. Revenge is best served as a cold dish.