BAD experience WITH **RK REPTILES**

<font size="4">I purchased 30 Veiled chams from RK REPTILES. I was told they were 3-4 weeks old. When I received them they looked OK, and were all alive. Within 24 hrs 3 were dead and 4 more wouldn't open there eyes. I went to 2 different reptile shops, and looked at the 4 week old Veileds the had, and in both stores they were twice as big. At first I thought it was just bad luck, but now I think Rob Knew exactly what he was doing. Today I received 20 Veileds from another breeder. These chams are almost 2 inches from nose to vent and are the same age as the other ones were supposed to be. In one week 7 out of 30 died. I'm supposed to be happy because he through in 2 extra Incas some died. The new breeder I go through gave me 72 hr guarantee. He didn't give me any extra, because the ones I paid for aren't going to die. I'm sure Rob hasn't burned everyone, This is just my experience with him. If he had any integrity at all he would try to work something out.</font>

Mike

Mike....a couple of things...first...I don't know you, and I've never done business with you (that I can recall? lol)...but, I DO know Rob Trenor!! I received 6 of his baby veils and 10 of his baby beardies on Tuesday morning....they are doing very well, and they are ALL still alive...there has GOT to be another reason for your bad luck with the one's you received???  I've bought quite a few baby veils from Rob over the years....not one has ever died on me!! NOT ONE! By any chance...are you feeding them anything BUT "Pinhead" Crickets?? Are you (maybe) giving them 1/4" crickets?? If If If this is the case...some of those kids can't handle that big a cricket and just won't eat??? Could that be possible??? I'm not saying, I'm just asking???

Secondly....there is no way on the face of this Earth that you are going to get a 4-week old Veiled Chameleon to get to a 2" stv without use of an airgun!!...period! At 4-weeks old, they should be a chubby 1"+ stv...and these ARE?? At 2"...they are probably 7-8 weeks old....

If Dana Pennebaker is reading this....she will know!! If I'm wrong...I will take my lumps...but, I doubt it....

Mike, I really think you're giving Rob a bad rap for something that he had no control over....you can count the number of Rob's bad deals on less than one hand! Heck...he's an ex-COP!! His whole life has been about doing the right thing....as you can tell by Rob's OWN thread about your deal....you don't seem to have too much support?? That's NOT because you are a bad guy...not at all!! It's just because IN THIS INSTANCE...you are mistaken about the "reason" for the death of 7 out of 30...I truly believe that! ....Neil

First off.. You are promoting more work for the webslave here on the BOI by opening this new post here. there already exists a post thread here on the BOI in relation to this matter. You should have posted this in the thread already going on the matter which you seem to have a problem with. In case you can not find it it is located HERE  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

Sorry webslave but I am posting an answer here to this post  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
Rob obviously had some questionability in relation to the deal you made with him and the outcome of the chams you received from him. That is why he started that thread. He has had many replies in relation to the thread he started and from what I have seen he has not only backed you up with what he represented in your deal with him to be, BUT has also had many people refelct that he has also.
You were given a guarantee of live receipt on the chams, you stated that the chams arrived and were alive and doing fine, then you have some fo them die off a couple days later and expect Rob to guarantee them outside of his FULLY REPRESENTED LIVE ARRIVAL GUARANTEE ?
I do not work with chams myself personally, BUt from what i understand of them they are a very easily stressed creature. You housed them in high numbers, as we have seen in relation to the emails Rob posted you had sent him also. Goiven that information I would think that you caused their demise by the housing conditions seeing as they were fine when they made their arrival to you as you have stated they had.
Just my .02 on the subject.. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

Let me add my quick little responce to this. I have know and done business with Rob for 2+ year now and have never had any problems with him or his animals!!! One other thing is I got 10 of these veileds for this group and all look good. I have been breeding veileds for 6 years in good numbers and I know what should be 4 weeks old.
   As most should know just because the animals are not huge does not meen they are not 4 weeks old nor sick. The other issue you have to think about is the differance in husbandry from you to Rob. Just the smallest change in environment could cause great problems in the chams. I would go to bat for Rob over anyone in this industry any day any time hands down  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> !!!!!!!!!!!!!
  Rob is also one of the easiest people to talk to about things like this. You got animals that showed up 100% live arrival and three passed away a week or days later? THat is the only warranty given by most dealer is live arrival. Just my opinion, and yes I have spoke with Rob about your transaction with him last week.

Tropical Creations Herp

Brad and Wendy Cooper

well, since Neil brought me into this...I have an idea...

how about Rob send me a couple of his veileds and I'll be the judge, lol!!!
And Rob, while you're at it, I heard some terrible things about your panthers too--better send some free ones my way so I can judge them also.

ok ok, for the record, I've never done any business with Rob, but I know quite a few people that have, and I've only heard good things.

hope you guys can figure a way to work this out.

Dana

I think selling and shipping a Veiled Chameleon under 2" (or 8 weeks) is not recommended.  Whether it be internet sale or Pet Shop.  Its just not fair to the animals.
Its better to raise them up abit and ask a little more.  Responsibilty goes to both parties.
Rob should not sell veileds that are 4weeks old unless it is a local pick up and the customer is more experienced.
The other gentleman, tried to save $$ buying young animals for a good price and most likely didnt know how to properly care for them.  Both the desire to make $$ and save $$
has ended up costing some unfortunate animals their lives.


Devon Smith

Devon,

When ordering 3 or 4 week old veileds in volume I think it would assumed that you had more than just basic knowledge of chameleon care. I also recieved 10 of the same batch. Shipped to the same county that Mike lives in. Except that mine were a week earlier. I lost one. As I stated in the other thread I think housing all of them together was not a good environment especially after shipping them.

BTW, I don't think Dana would be a good judge of Panthers. You should send those to me <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Thanks everyone for the post except Mike. And as far as Devon's post, I have been breeding and selling veileds at 2-4 weeks old for years and this is the only time I have had anyone have problems.  I can't say exactly why they are or were dying but I can say they were all 100% healthy and doing great when I shipped them, & when he received them (according to him in his e-mail).  If you want to compare my veileds to some other breeders go right ahead it does not matter to me.  One thing I can pretty much guarantee the other breeder did not sell you (Mike) those veileds at the prices or near the prices I did.  I sold them to you below current wholesale prices. (current wholesale prices at $20ea no matter how many you purchase, and thats from many breeders and wholesalers).  As far as their size, like I told you in the begining on the phone some were larger and some were smaller( depeinding on which were eating more crickets) Also another thing I told you I was feeding them the next size down from 1/4" and that you should do the same.  That right there could be the whole reason for any perishing.  Another thing you stated that within 24 hours 3 had died, well according to the dates on your e-mails it was 2 days before you wrote telling me that any had died.  Thats a little more than 24hours.  If the ther breeder wants to guarantee his for 72 hours great for him.  I can't do that as anyone who has bred, housed or dealt with chameleons know if your not doing the proper housing any cham can die in less than 72 hours.  I stood behind my guarantee which was stated on the ad the Chameleons were posted on, posted on my web site, and even quoted to you on the phone and clarified when you asked for a longer guarantee.  I think that it is funny how you are the only one who has a problem with those chameleons.  Daniel got some from the same group and he recieved his a week earlier (which would make them younger than when you got yours) and he is not having problems.  I would like to say one thing, I have always conducted my business in a fashion like I would want to purchase.  I guarantee and sell healthy animas otherwise they do not get sold.  If i had thought any of the veields were ill or weak I WOULD NOT HAVE SENT THEM.  How dare you come on here and state </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think Rob Knew exactly what he was doing. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> I knoew exaclt what I was doing when I shipped out healthy animals PERIOD!. I think it is reduculous that because you did not get your way of getting more chameleons for free you decide to start another thread.  There was one thread regarding this matter on the BOI already.  I wish you the best with your new Veiled Supplier and hope they are everything you want in the future as you have burned a bridge with me and will never receive animals from me.  Also you stated they were ill, well I noticed your ad on kingsnake posting them for sale.  So they must be healthy enough to sel in your eyes.

Another note,

I have purchased baby veileds at 1 day old and had them shipped to me all the way across the us and sucessfully been able to raise them to adult hood with out any problems. In case anyone were curious.

Mike, is this part of your add?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">VEILED CHAMELEONS
THESE GUYS ARE 1 MONTH OLD.EATING 1/4 INCH CRICKETS AND THEY ARE GROWING FAST.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
If so, do you disagree that 1/4 inch crickets are too large for them? I don't know anything about chams, I'm just asking.

Bobby Douglass

Rob is telling another lie. When I spoke with him on the phone, I asked what size crickets are the chams eating. He said he was giveing them 1/4 inch crickets twice a day.Now he's saying the next size down. As far as the $$ is concerned Robs prices were good but not as good as I'm getting them for now. I knew I was paying a little more to get them from him, but I thought I was going to get better quality chams. When I got the chams I seperated them into 2 cages, so I know they werent to crowded. The ones that are not dead yet are doing very good. I think some were sick or to little to be sold to begin with. I'm a business owner myself. I go out of my way to make sure my customers are happy. I would never treat them the way I have been treated. Like I said before, this is my experience I'm sure Rob has satisfied customers.
      I'm a very honest business man. I would never lie to try to get some free chams. It's not the money that bothers me, it's the fact that these little guys were droping like flys and Rob had a bad attitude about the whole thing.

Mike...sorry, buddy...I've got to disagree with you on this one, because you said it yourself! You've been feeding them 1/4" crickets...for arguments sake, let's just say that when you and Rob were talking about their diet, you only "heard" the 1/4" part and not the part about the "next size down from" .....EVEN SO....you yourself said that you've dealt in baby veils before?? You should have known that they couldn't eat 1/4"'ers at the "small" size they were...whether you "heard" Rob say it or not...you just can't blame this on Rob! You as a "professional" should have known better! I will only feed baby veils Pinheads until they are about 10 weeks old....they are easier to digest and the bones from larger crickets won't get lodged and block them up??? I hate to say this, Mike...but, you've got to do your homework on any animal you sell....the only thing that happened here was a simple case of miscommunication....and then exascerbating it by not following through on the details....Neil

Neil,
I agree with what you are saying. But instead of just blaming me when I asked what was going on and saying "well they were alive when you got them" he should have tried to help solve this,then I wouldn't be so upset. where did you read that I said I have delt with baby Veilds before? I never said that. Lets say I should have fed them smaller crickets, what about the ones that died in 24 hrs and the ones that wouldn't open there eyes. I tried to be fair and even offered to pay shipping on replacements.

How does this sound. I have lost 7 so far. I will pay shipping and Rob will send 4, and we will put this behind us.I will even post a puplic apoligy to Rob, because he showed that he is willing to work with his customers.

I'm not unreasonable, I just don't like feeling like I was taken advantage of. I think my offer is more than reasonable.
Mike

First off Mike DO NOT CALL ME A LIAR! I am still feeding mine the next size down from 1/4" crickets.  I told you that on the phone and am telling you that again now. So everyone knows the prices you paid ($17.50ea for a 20 lot & $16.50ea for an additional 10 lot) If your getting them cheaper than that then great for you and your supplier is cutting his/her own throat. Like it was posted in the previous thread, this thread, most of my post, on my ads, on my Web Page, and clarified on the phone with you. I GUARANTEE LIVE ARRIVAL  The animals arrived alive and healthy as you stated yourself in your e-mails. I will not send you any replacement animals when I sent healthy animals, and you received healthy animals.  From there what happened I do not know. And as far as my business and customer skills, lets put it this way, I have been in business now for about 5 years, and I have been into reptile (caring, keeping and researching) for over 30 years. This is the one and only bad post on here and problem that I have had a customer have with me.  I always make my customers happy (hense I sent extra free animals which were valued at more money to you) There are always going to be some customers that you can't please no matter what you do (just like you) and I will not break my back and sway your way so your happy. It is obvious you will not be happy with anything that happens here (unless it is your way).  Well I say this I run my business the way I do, I have a great customer base (that are all exstatic to be my customers and always pleased with my animals and service) and I will not change it because of one person who wants more and more and more.  (this was obvious in the beginging of the deal) To be honest with you mike and to let everyone else know.  My wife told me I should not sell the animals to him in the begining, just because the way he was pushing and trying to get more of my animals for free.  Hell I like the surprise of getting free animals, but I sure as hell am not going to push and try to pursuade a seller to send me free animals.  Even if I had not sent the free ones to you mike, I fullfilled all my requirements of my guarantee.  I sent healthy animals, they arrived alive, healthy and in good shape. according to your own post.</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:29:34 EDT
Subject: Re: animals
To: [email protected]
X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10568
X-RCPT-TO: <[email protected]>

I'm very happy with the chams, they all made it just fine. The F1's are beautiful. If you ever need a reference just email me or call and I will be happy to tell anyone the quality of the chams you sell. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I think this prooves the fact that they were alive and healthy when they arrived and you were happy with them PERIOD.
This should be a warning to everyone, no matter how hard you try you can't please everyone all the time. (and you can't please Mike unless it is his way).

Also as far as your comments on them dying in 24 hours. see below for the time table according to your e-mails.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:29:34 EDT
Subject: Re: animals
To: [email protected]
X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10568
X-RCPT-TO: <[email protected]>

I'm very happy with the chams, they all made it just fine. The F1's are beautiful. If you ever need a reference just email me or call and I will be happy to tell anyone the quality of the chams you sell. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>6<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>3 EDT
Subject: (no subject)
To: [email protected]
X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10568
X-RCPT-TO: <[email protected]>

I just want to give you an update on the chams. When we got them 3 looked week compared to the rest of them, and 1 died today. Also when we counted them the 1st night we were short 1 of the normals. On a good note all the other ones look strong and are eating great. We are very happy with them. Like I said before, if you ever need a reference let me know.

Thanks,

Mike
Chameleon Condo  </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:25:55 EDT
Subject: More Veileds died
To: [email protected]
X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10568
X-RCPT-TO: <[email protected]>

I found 3 more dead chams. In the last 2 days I've been to 2 reptile stores. Both of them had Veileds that were 3 weeks old and they are a lot bigger then the ones I got from you. They had some that were only 3-4 days old that are the same size as the ones I got. I'm misting the cage twice a day. They are getting plenty of UVB rays, and are eating 1/4 inch crickets. Are you sure they were 3-4 weeks old when you sent them, and why are the dying. The f1's are doing fine, it's the normals that I'm having trouble with.

Mike
Chameleon Condo  </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

As everyone can see it was not 24 hours that three died. they arrived on the 4th, you e-mailed on the 6th that one had died, then on the 8th 3 more had died.  Well for one that is not 24 hours, and as for your other suppliers 72 hour guaranteem, well the last 3 that had died would not have been in his 72 hour window either.  Then you would be bitching that it should be a 5 days guarante or something along those lines.  That is just the reason I guarantee live healthy arrival. and as soon as the customer says they all look great and they are alive then I am completed. PERIOD. LIke I said before I wish you the best of luck in Business Mike but I will not change my policy for one person like yourself.

Mike,

If I am wrong as you feel I am, then why is it noone agrees with you?  I did all I could do, even did more than what was required (sent extra free animals) and still your complaining. I am sorry that the animals perished.  It was not from anything I have done so therefore I can not and will not be held liable for it.

Mike,

The guarantee was for live animals.  They arrived alive, you said so yourself.  The guarantee is fulfilled, and Rob owes you nothing else.

You can complain that his guarantee is not sufficient.  You can say that you will never do business with someone with such a limited guarantee again.  What you cannot do is expect Rob to go beyond his guarantee just because you don't like it after it no longer suits you.  You liked it plenty when you were getting those prices or you wouldn't have made the deal and sent the money!

Too late to change your mind now, my friend.  My opinion is that you should just let this go, because Rob isn't sending you anything.  Quite frankly, the way your chams are dying (when others who also bought from Rob at the same time aren't having problems), I would be rather upset with Rob if he did send you more animals until your experience with chams is more substantial.

Neil, Crickets don't have bones they have an exoskeleton.

As far as the situation at hand goes I personally know nothing about Rob or the other person involved but I do recall another thread a couple of weeks ago involving an unhappy customer who bought some Star Tortoises that they felt were misrepresented.
It is starting to look like everytime Rob has a problem sale he is trying to "beat his customers to the punch" by posting his version of the story and then forcing his customers to come here and defend themselves.
I would think that after what has taken place on this board recently most people would be a little more hesitant about choosing sides ( No offense to you Neil just making a point).

Jackie Lapradd

GEESH Mike  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>  Do you even realize that your are beating yourself down here in a commercial/business sense at all  by continuing this way with your posting ? SURE , Your getting your name known out there to others, but NOT in a very good sense of context though. Maybe your new in the biz world [ I dunno], maybe your not...BUT If ya keep beating the issue like you are..ALL your gonna succeed in doing is to promote negativity relative to your name/company is all IMHO.
When your doing biz, sometimes things happen and ya get hit with a loss , ya gotta learn to take it in stride and move forward or you will "drown" your biz out.
BTW.. I personally have never dealt with Rob ever. The day I decide to move into chams though, I will most likely look him up as a supplier no doubt though.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  AND that's because I see a biz person who deals wholesale in chams and STICKS to his guarantee, plus the satisfied customers that have posted help a bit too. That won't be till I "know" more on the chams though and have done tons of research on em  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>
Take a suggesttion also Mike...
Separate them chams out more than you have stated you did. They are most likely stressing out from the husbandry in your caging ethics your following by jamming that many into 1 cage. Next start feeding them the smaller sized criks too. Last but not least... spend a few days reading care sheets on chams, talking with people who have the knowledge needed to "properly" keep them and maintain their health as well..and utilizing any other source you can find in relation to proper husbandry of the chams. Such should have been done PRIOR to purchasing the chams. From your posting and emails it doesn't sound like you did that at all. MAybe I am misreading such, but I don't believe so.   Worst part of the whole deal is the loss of life associated with it, hopefully you can change that though so there is no more loss from the supply you have now of chams.

Jackie,

I don't try to </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"beat his customers to the punch" </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> as you stated.  I wholeheartedly belive in this site and its ability to help in situations.  Thats why I brought both of these situations to the Board.  AS far as the Tortoise situation that person does not even know about the boi as far as I know.  I came looking for answers on if I was right or wrong in my thoughts on the matter.  Same as this situation, I brought it to light to see if I was wrong or I was correct in following my terms and Guarantees.  I have had thousands of internet sales just in the last few months and if there is a concern I bring it here.  It is not my fault that a person has as someone stated before "buyers remorse". I have terms that are laid out clear and simple for everyone to see and read.  If they are unsure about them they ask for claryfication like Mike did and I make it even more clear to him.  Please take a look at the dates of his e-mails and read all of the situations before you make rash judgements like you did in saying I am </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"beat his customers to the punch" by posting his version of the story and then forcing his customers to come here and defend themselves.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> I do no force anyone to do anything.  I posted the facts and then asked for everyones input. it is not my side of the story it is factual truth.

O.K. Rob I looked at the dates and read the emails. So what is your point?
I have visited your site and read your terms and I do believe they are self explanatory albiet somewhat harsh. What I was trying to relay with my previous post was that evidently their is some sort of miscommunication between you and some of your customers when it comes to what they will be receiving. I don't think this makes you a bad person who intentionally misleads people by lying to them. Perhaps your idea of "flawless" and your customers are 2 different things and that puts them in a difficult spot when you consider your terms.
I realize it is your business and you have every right to set your own terms but if you misrepresent your animals and then hide behind your terms that is morally wrong.
As far as the Stars go I read your original ad and even considered buying them. I don't recall anything mentioning imperfect scutes. I did however notice that once you posted your thread here another ad was run regarding them that made mention of the imperfections. Does that mean that you didn't notice it until the person who bought them brought it to your attention?

Jackie Lapradd