Joe Vinsky...looks like another BAD GUY

Well, I hate to do this but short of taking him to court, I'm running out of options. Here's what happened, you decide if he's a bad guy, any opinions on proper compensation would also be welcomed.

Almost 4 years ago now I bought a DH for Snow Boa from him at the Hamburg, PA show. Joe didn't have paperwork on her but since I had talked to him for a couple years before that at the East coast shows (NY and PA) and he seemed like a good guy, I took him at his word and a handshake guarantee. He wouldn't give me names but told me he got them directly from his buddy the breeder (who turned out to be none other than that proven crook Kenny Gall) and said he guaranteed them and would stand behind them all the way.

I raised her slowly without powerfeeding and bred both her and my Albino female to my DH for Sunglow male this past year. They both ovulated and I was waiting for two litters of Sunglows. The Albino dropped first and the male was proven as I got Sunglows from her. The DH for Snow female dropped a couple weeks behind her, only problem is there were 1/2 Hypos and 1/2 normals only, no Albinos and no Sunglows. THE DH FOR SNOW WAS A FAKE AND JUST A NORMAL BOA.

I approached Joe quietly like a gentleman at the recent Hamburg, PA show and asked if I could talk to him in private away from the other vendors. I explained what happened and he said he felt bad but not responsible for what happened because Kenny Gall must have lied to him. I told him I didn't get her from Kenny I got her guaranteed from him and that after I lost $30,000 on the litter at least he could give me back the $450 I paid for her or give me something off his table for my wasted time and money. He said he couldn't do that and would send me a check and took my address, NO CHECK EVER SHOWED.

He's an older guy probably in his early to mid 60's and will be at the White Plains show in July so I just wanted people to see what kind of a guy he is when a problem arises. He was selling yearling Super? Hypos at the Hamburg show for $1800 each and will have them again at White Plains, NY I'm sure. They were yearlings so they couldn't be proven yet so I don't know how he can sell them as definite Supers, don't expect to be compensated if you buy them and they turn out to be normal overpriced Hypos later, he DOESN'T stand behind what he sells.

If anyone knows his contact info please let him know about this thread, I only see him at the shows, I don't have his e-mail or phone #. I have tried real hard to be fair about this but after losing 4 years and all the killer trade deals I had set up for the Sunglows with other Boa breeders I know the last thing I wanted to hear is "I DON'T FEEL RESPONSIBLE"

If he does the right thing and sends me a check PLUS something for my time now I will post it but I'm not holding my breath. Thanks.......................Brock

Steve Brockschmidt
Brocks Boids

STEVE, you took the risk with out the

paperwork. Its a little late to cry foul. This should have been resolved at the time of purchase!

What's right is right.

Jerry,
It WAS done at the time of sale, he gave me his personal guarantee with a handshake, it just took this long to prove it out as a fake.
Sorry but I don't agree, some people in this world still do what's right simply because it's the right thing to do. It goes a long way towards showing someone's true character if they need a piece of paper to make them stand behind their word. What makes you think he would give me anything just because I had a piece of paper? He admits he sold me a fake, he just doesn't feel he's responsible.

Thanks.....................Brock

Gotta go with Brock on this one. If you are unwilling to guarantee the genetics on someone elses animals then you have no business selling animals you did not produce yourself.

On another note though, buying the animal without insisting on paperwork wasn't real sharp either

Jerry????

That's your reply???? That's hardly my feelings on this situation. He's a BAD GUY PERIOD. Lots of hard work went into that project. I'm afraid of just how many threads we are going to see like this over the next 3-4 years...a lot of BS hets have been sold for sure, and it's just about time for some of them to prove (or unprove) out. Sad....well, I guess we will see who stands behind their animals and who doesn't.

Dude, somebody stole my Sunglows!

Thanks for the backing John. I will be the first to admit it was a bonehead move to buy her without paperwork but I don't think it would have made any difference at this point. He seemed like a good guy, I guess you just can't trust your gut feelings anymore.

Troy, I appreciate your post and while I think your probably right, I hope your wrong. It was totally heartbreaking to put 4 years into her and walk in and see that litter, I hope others don't have to go thru that. I know this thread won't get me any monetary compensation, I just hope it stops someone else from feeling like they got kicked in the gut.

You can be sure Jerry will go on my "Do not buy from list" with that kind of attitude on the situation. Thanks..........Brock

Steve Brockschmidt
Brocks Boids

All I am saying is in business, especially

where money is involved and a potential for additional future income, a hand shake is very nice, but to avoid any difficulties no purchase should be made unless paperwork is included at the time of sale. Now I am in unfamiliar territory when it comes to snakes and the genetics of it. I do know however that these transactions can get quite expensive. If paperwork is part of the sale, then it seems to make sense that it should accompany the item involved. If not, then the sale should not have been consummated.

Now here we are several years later, and the buyer is looking for some compensation. As much as I can appreciate the dissapointment, the buyer entered this agreement knowing full well that nothing other than the sellers word made the sale work. That is business made on a emotional response instead of a more careful assessment of what happens if the animal in question turns out not to be , as stated. I am sorry to say, it was a poor business calculation, that could have been avoided. You see this all the time!

Steve, Let me point one thing out to

you. I am not your enemy. The fact is their are people out their who do not have the business sense to make a wise decision. They loose money, sometimes animals, sometimes both. They end up here at the BOI.

Allot of this could be avoided. Time after time people seem to make the same mistake taking an emotional approach in conducting their business activities without having the forsight as to how it will effect them in the future. That is exactly what happened here.

If you want to put me on a list thats fine. I did not survive the Herp business after being in it for 40 years because of my sweet nature, but rather my ability to make money for other people by making wise choices. Its ironic at this juncture that in any future dealings a smart lesson has now been learned about purchasing a valued snake. That mistake will not be made twice!!!!! This I am sure of. So dont be so quick to condemn my position on this matter. This information as much as you may not like it, will hopefully protect you as well as others in the future. JERRY TRESSER

I don't think foul can be cried yet anyway. A single breeding producing no albinos or sunglows doesnt prove anything. Sure the punnent square tells you you should get some, but mother nature doesn't carry a a punnent square, or make all litters divisible by 4 or 16. I have heard of many cases where an animal took several years to prove out. You could just as easily produce all albinos as no albinos. Until this animal is used a few more times, which I doubt you plan on doing, it cant be proven that you have a non het animal. You can't attack someone because of bad luck on your end from one breeding. Am I alone in thinking this ?

Dave,
It's spelled Punnett Square and it states I should have 25% Albinos. I would buy that explaination if the animals didn't come from that scammer KENNY GALL (Rainforest Rarities) thru Joe. Do a search on here and the old BOI on Kenny and tell me if you still believe she could be a double het? She will be bred to an Albino male next season just to prove without a doubt she is a normal, I should get 1/2 Albinos but I already know what I will get, a litter of hets with no Albinos.

If they were ball pythons with their relatively small clutch sizes of 5 to 7, I could see the odds being against me but these are Boas and they usually breed a little closer to the punnett square numbers with their larger sized litters. I've produced 5 litters of Albinos from het to het breedings since my first in 95 and had as little as 3 Albinos out of 38 babies and as much as 8 Albinos out of 24 babies but never none. Even though the male was a Hypo this was your basic het to het breeding which should have resulted in 25% Albinos, out of her 22 babies that should have been 5 to 6 Albinos, I can't see not getting any Albinos.

I would love to hear from anyone else that bred known het to het Boas and ended up with no Albinos. Thanks...............Brock

Steve Brockschmidt
Brocks Boids

If I remember correctly

there was some question as to whether Kenny's anery female was really anerythristic or just a dark female, I have not heard anyone imply that he was selling normals as hets???
If you had recieved "paperwork", what good would it do at this point?
The seller can state he was decieved, the producer can state that the snakes were switched..etc...
What I am trying to say is, sometimes a handshake from a friend or someone you trust is (should be) worth more than "paperwork"

Thanks Casey,
That's what I was trying to say, even if I had paperwork at this point what good would it do. It's a shame that some people need a piece of paper to do the right thing. I talked to Joe face to face and he said sorry but it's not his fault because he didn't produce them, even though at the time he guaranteed them 100%. He's not denying that he sold her to me, he just won't stand behind what he sells. The funny thing is all I asked for was what I paid for her, not really worth all this bad press for only $450.

I know this thread won't get me any compensation but it does show how Joe Vinsky won't handle problems if and when they arise and that's what this site is for.

I wanted to warn people who might buy from him at the July 18 show at White Plains, NY of his actions. He most likely will have a table at the show, BUY AT YOUR OWN RISK. Thanks.............Brock

Steve Brockschmidt
Brocks Boids

Corectig my spelling ,(that will teach me to post at midnight) doesn't change the fact that your conclusion is from one breeding.You are breeding her to an albino next year, that should prove one way or another, but I think you are in the wrong for demanding your $450 back after just this one breeding.Am I saying they are hets? No. However it needs to be shown that they arent, with more than just a het to het breeding if you want compensation years after purchase. I don't think sufficient trials have been done to label him a bad guy, reguardless of who he bought them from.

Do you think you could link me to a thread where the other guys hets didn't prove out? Thanks in advance.

correcting* ,I guess i should post in the morning either.

Steve, you probably know this but this is for the uninitiated...When you breed het to het animals, in this case het albino boa's, you wont get a clutch that is 25% albino...each hatchling has a 25% chance of expressing the trait, and 66.6% of carrying the trait a het albino)...Certainly possible for no albinos to be produced from a HetXHet breeding, notwithstanding the source of your snake and his reputation...just a little info, folks...

All I know is that a man who won't stand behind his word and a handshake won't stand behind a piece of paper that may or may not be attributable to a particular animal four years later. I also know I would never deal with anyone twice, once they had shown me to be the type that goes back on his word.

It's spelled Punnett Square and it states I should have 25% Albinos.

Click to expand...

No, it doesn't say any such thing. It says that each of the offspring have a 1 in 4 chance of being albino. The way you are interpretting it is like flipping one out of two coins, coming up with heads on the first one, and then thinking that the second flipped coin MUST be tails, because you have a 50% chance of either heads or tails for each flip. It don't work that way. Luck has a HUGE influence in statistics, and the results you get are more a measure of how lucky you are rather than any fixed "rule" of genetics.

With a small data sample such as a single litter or clutch of babies, genetic statistics only show you possibilities, not probabilities. Realistically speaking, from experience, your possibilities range from ZERO albinos to ALL albinos, depending on how lucky you are.

I have no idea who Joe is.

I agree with what Rich is saying. To ad to that a bit I spoke to Brian Sharp about this topic a few months back. He has 100% het albino balls he produced himself, not bought from someone else, he produced them himself so he knows there the real deal. Hes had some a couple years in a row throw all normal looking babies then the same pairing throughs albinos. Theres really no method to the maddness. I know boas its less common but I am sure it happens. I know a guy who breed 2 het anery boas, out of 40 babies 28 were anerys thats almost 70% go figure.

If my math is correct then;
The probability that a litter of 22 babies from a het to het breeding would produce 0 albinos is:

1.487%

That means approx. 1.5:100 breedings would go this way, so there is a possibility.
However, if this guys reputation is not good(I have never dealt with either of the pursuant parties) I think the probabilities of a scam are greater (significantly) than that. If this guy has done 100 transactions and ripped off 3 people, then it would be 2-to1 that we have another "het" scam.
Does anybody have statistics on Joe Vinsky, or his animals? These stats will compound rapidly if anyone else has failed to get a homozygous result from a het-to-het breeding involving Joe Vinsky's "hets. I'm not judging anyone, just calculating. Good luck Brock.

You are all correct about one litter or clutch of snakes not being enough evidence to PROVE a scam having been done on the originator of this thread. He may just be unlucky, and he may get all albinos next time out.

However, it seems to me that this is not the real issue that needs to be addressed here. The real problem is seen in the following statement made on the first post of this thread:

"I explained what happened and he said he felt bad but not responsible for what happened because Kenny Gall must have lied to him."

If the seller believed that this one clutch was too small a test group to determine the authenticity of the genetics of these two "hets," he should have said so. Instead, he decided to try to pass the buck and pin blame on Kenny Gall. I'm sorry, but that is not good business, and it shows a lack of ethics on the seller's part, in my opinion.

Mr. Vinsky sold those snakes as hets, and he should stand behind his "product" fully. The person from whom he got these animals may be suspect, but is totally irrelavent in THIS situation. In this business, all you really have is your reputation, and if Mr. Vinsky is not willing to stand behind his animals (regardless of what he may, or may not have thought they were), his reputation will reflect that poor decision.