Chen lai. aka CKL

READ this and trust it as you may.

I ordered a couple female ATBs from chen, one noted to be definatly gravid (which it was not&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>. We discussed delta dash and chen let me know he did not have the capability so ups would be used. I informed Chen that the temps here where getting down to 40+ in the morning and a heat pack would be needed, Chen replied that he was not going to as the temp was 85 there. BOTH of the animals where DOA and cold to the touch. I spent $415.00 on this pair including shipping which was more than the labeled price on the tree boa clasifieds, and Chen could not use a 10 dollar heat pack? I promptly e-mailed Chen with a pic and a note as to how the animals arrived. Chen also says no refund and no replacement is due by him.

DO NOT TRUST CHEN LAI aka CKL as this person appears not to care about the animals when warned about temps, along with the misrepresentation that this ATB was gravid.

Like i said, Trust as you may but I have nothing but sore feelings for the buisness ethics of this indavidual.

Chuck Butler

This must be the same ckl that had an ad in colubrids for a corn snake "double het for snow". I still haven't gotten him to respond as to what a "double het for snow" is.

Double het for snow is heterozygous for amelanism and anerythrism.

It is the same Chen though, who was shipping snakes illegally (USPS) a year or two ago. From the sound of this post, though, he's now using legal methods, so I have no criticism of him in that regard.

HERE IS PART OF MY STORY

Chen Lai and Steve Brown are friends.
Steve Brown was "supposedly " selling Chen's albino boa for him.
Steve (if he exists) would give customers his address so the customers can mail him the money.
But
EVERYTIME he realized the customer was close enough to inspect the animal....it was all of a sudden sold.
Steve says it was because Chen changed his mind.
I said it was downright lying and chen says...and I quote

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">perhaps he did lie, but no one was burned, he didn't rip anyone off.  I just don't see the big deal in this.... </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

click on the link for the full story.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/cgi-bin....lai+ckl

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Chen could not use a 10 dollar heat pack?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Heat packs are only around a dollar ($1) ONE DOLLAR

Judging from my and my friends expereince he is shady.
Judging from your experience...he is BAD

Hey Chen !!  The customer paid for a live animal.
NOT A DEAD ONE !!!!

Is this Chen Lai located in Maryland?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is this Chen Lai located in Maryland?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Yes, April. Same guy. He lives in Maryland.

I have had numerous conversations with Chuck regarding this matter. Actually, several of us have. Chuck was reluctant to even mention his deal with Chen. I advised him to tel his story on here to warn others of this dealer.

The ATB's arrived dead. Though he lives in Alaska, Chuck was their to receive the package. It was not left outside. The snakes were cold to the touch. In his words "They appear as if they were put in the box frozen, and thawed out during shipping. There were no heat packs. After contacting Chen, Chuck was basically told "Too bad. Stick it.".

IMO, transactions and dealers like Chen Lai are the REAL reason that the BOI was invented.

In summation: BUYERS BEWARE OF CHEN LAI.

Thanx everyone for the warning!. How do you pronounce the last name? LIE?

Hmm.  Well, even though this is a reptile forum, I guess it's relavent here.  I was supposed to do a 50/50 trade with Chen last December.  I sent him an adult male L. parahybana and was supposed to recieve half of the spiderlings.  He said he recieved it okay, but after that, I didn't hear from him.  I emailed him twice after that, telling him to please keep me up to date.  He responded to those emails, but after that I never heard back from him on whether his female produced or not.  I just let it go, but now I figure that this might be useful info anyway.  Oh yeah, I paid for the shipping on the male, he was supposed to pay shipping on the spiderlings.

I guess I didn't see the last time people posted about him.  I was in the hospital for a while...

Hi all,
   Well, here is the whole story.  Chuck has never said the weather was 40 degree, he said it's okay.  And I told him I do not guaranteed live arrival on shipments to ALASKA, so I offered him a refund if he didn't want to continue.  But he said ups is okay.  Below is the message that include all of the details.  I did make the point that I only guaranteed live arrival on lower 48 states and it's his decision to continue the purchase or not.   So now, put yourself in my situation, if you have warned the customer no guaranteed will be given due to his location, and the snakes arrived dead.  Would you refund his money or not?  I doubt it.  Because chuck was the one that made the decision, not me.  So, I do not believe I should have pay for the decision he made.    





its ok chen.. i still want the two girls shipped. you got my addy .. are you usinga heat pack in the box? weather here is ok for now.

thanks . chuck

Chen Lai wrote:

Hi,
No, I told you from the begining that I only ship via UPS. THis is what
you wrote in one of the message you sent: "im in anchorage alaska. 99508..
ups is ok as long as it is over night. the snake was 375 each or was it for
the trio." I only do guaranteed on live shippiing on lower 48 states. SO,
if you wish to discontinue, I will sent you a refund. Thanks. Chen


>From: chuck butler
>To: Chen Lai
>Subject: Re: money sent
>Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:58:28 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>oh . i thought we where shipping via delta dash. with ups do you guarentee
>live? here is my address
>chuck 4139 vista ct. anchorage ak 99508
> Chen Lai wrote:Hi,
>I will let you know when I do receive it. And I will definitely ship on
>Monday if that's good for you. Chen
>
>
> >From: chuck butler
> >To: Chen Lai
> >Subject: money sent
> >Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:20:15 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >
> >ok chen, i got 415 sent to you next day air. it will be to you by friday
>at
> >3pm. next day doesnt really work as i am in alaska to the postal service.
> >here is the tracking #
> >et786165493us you can look it up at usps.com
> >let me know when you get it and we can set a time for shipping.. monday
> >would be great!
> >thank you,
> >chuck 907-764-2172
> > Chen Lai wrote:Hi
> >415 is the total for the 2 amazon trees. Thanks. Chen
> >
> >
> > >From: chuck butler
> > >To: Chen Lai
> > >Subject: Re: quick question
> > >Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 22:16:25 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >
> > >ok.. had a problem.. all i can get right now is the amazons. ill send
>out
> >a
> > >money order tomorrow. how much exactly do you want me to have it
>written
> > >for?
> > >chuck
> > > Chen Lai wrote:Forgot to mention, if you do decide to purchase the atb
> > >and etb, I will give
> > >a total of 1800 shipping included. Chen
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: chuck butler
> > > >To: [email protected]
> > > >Subject: quick question
> > > >Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:28:25 -0700 (PDT)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >thanks for your prompt e-mails with me.. im getting the money ready
>for
> > >the
> > > >amazons if they are still available..
> > > >
> > > >i was also woundering on the locality of your emeralds that you are
> > > >selling.
> > > >
> > > >thanks
> > > >
> > > >chuck.. alaska
> > > >

Chen-

Why do you only have Chucks' emails to you posted? Yet you only put:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Chen Lai wrote:</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Sounds fishy to me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">are you usinga heat pack in the box? weather here is ok for now.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

He may have said that the weather is ok. But he also inquired about a heat pack as well. Meaning he had a concern about the temps.. You only guarantee the lower 48, correct? Why not Alaska? Is it because you are aware of the temp extremes in Alaska? If so, to go ahead and ship there, you should have had the foresight to add a heatpack. Yes, he continued the transaction. But it was your negligence in not including a heat pack that caused this animals death. Thus, guarantee or not, YOU are responsible for replacing the animals or refunding his money in full. Proper packaging and a heat pack would have sufficiently insulated those snakes from the elements. Sorry pal, but your arguments carry no merit.

CHEN! YOU DONT HAVE TO LIE TO MAKE FRIENDS, JUST TO KEEP THEM! AND ALONG WITH EMERALD GUY SAID, WHAT DDO YOU THINK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? I DID TELL YOU THAT A HEAT PAD WAS NEEDED, YOU SAID THAT IT WAS 85 DEGREES THERE AND YOU WHERE NOT GOING TO PUT ONE IN FOR THAT REASON! YOU SHIPPED IT AFTER 645 YOUR TIME! I LOOKED. SO DONT LIE. AND A GUARENTEE?!! WHATEVER MAN, YOU HAVE BEEN PROVED TO BE A CROOK SO FAR FROM YOUR DEALINGS WITH OTHER PEOPLE, WHERE DOES YOUR CREDABILITY COME FROM. NOWHERE <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>  AND IN THE PARTS OF THE E-MAILS THAT WHERE YOURS THAT YOU PUT ON HERE WHER CHANGED. DONT MAKE ME GET OUT THE REAL ONES AS I HAVE THEM ALL SAVED.

JUST REMEMBER CHEN, IF YOU KEEP LYING, EVENTUALLY YOU WILL START TO BELIEVE YOURSELF.

I thought I had heard the last of Chen, but apparently some people won't go away. Do NOT TRUST THIS KID. I caught him walking into my house uninvited and when I purposely made him think no one was home. I made the mistake of cutting him some slack as he was young and did not have the police press charges. If you are willing to break into someones house what is the big deal with a little internet fraud. Make this kid go away and don't do any business with him

Chen dispute any of this and I'll be more than happy to bring charges up on you.

David Van Houten
Logan Enterprised

Here...  Below would be the complete copy and paste of the screen I have.   There is only one email, the messages included are the ones that were included in reply.  

And about the heat pad, I emailed him that I wasn't going to include the heat pad because the temp is about 85(it got up to 88).  Everything I did I emailed him first, just to make sure it's okay with him.  I didn't get any other instruction.  If it's 40 degree in my area, when the seller tell me he is not going to use heat pad I would tell him that it's 40 degree outside and insist on shipping with a heat pad.    But since he didn't tell me that, are you telling me I should include a head pad when it's 85 degree outside in my area, and the weather is described as 'okay' in the customer's area?  Any breeder/seller would tell you NO, you don't want to cook the animals that you are shipping.  He misinformed me the weather condition and he didn't tell me anything about being 40 degree, otherwise I would've wait until it gets colder in MD, so I can use heat pad in the packaging.  

Now, if a seller doesn't provide any guaranteed because of your location, and you choose to continue the purchase, what do you expect if something goes wrong?  Nothing, because the seller has already informed you on no guaranteed is given to you due to your special circumstances.  Second, if something went wrong because you misinformed the sender, whose fault is that??  The person that misinformed the sender.  First, I haven't lied about anything, second I didn't do anything wrong(because everything I did, I emailed him first), and I tried my best to communicate with Chuck, making sure everything I do is okay.      
Chen Lai




[email protected]    
 
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From :    
chuck butler <[email protected]>  
   
To :    
Chen Lai <[email protected]>  
 
Subject :    
Re: money sent  
 
Date :    
Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:30:15 -0700 (PDT)  
 
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its ok chen.. i still want the two girls shipped. you got my addy .. are you usinga heat pack in the box? weather here is ok for now.

thanks . chuck

Chen Lai wrote:

Hi,
No, I told you from the begining that I only ship via UPS. THis is what
you wrote in one of the message you sent: "im in anchorage alaska. 99508..
ups is ok as long as it is over night. the snake was 375 each or was it for
the trio." I only do guaranteed on live shippiing on lower 48 states. SO,
if you wish to discontinue, I will sent you a refund. Thanks. Chen


>From: chuck butler
>To: Chen Lai
>Subject: Re: money sent
>Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:58:28 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>oh . i thought we where shipping via delta dash. with ups do you guarentee
>live? here is my address
>chuck 4139 vista ct. anchorage ak 99508
> Chen Lai wrote:Hi,
>I will let you know when I do receive it. And I will definitely ship on
>Monday if that's good for you. Chen
>
>
> >From: chuck butler
> >To: Chen Lai
> >Subject: money sent
> >Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:20:15 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >
> >ok chen, i got 415 sent to you next day air. it will be to you by friday
>at
> >3pm. next day doesnt really work as i am in alaska to the postal service.
> >here is the tracking #
> >et786165493us you can look it up at usps.com
> >let me know when you get it and we can set a time for shipping.. monday
> >would be great!
> >thank you,
> >chuck 907-764-2172
> > Chen Lai wrote:Hi
> >415 is the total for the 2 amazon trees. Thanks. Chen
> >
> >
> > >From: chuck butler
> > >To: Chen Lai
> > >Subject: Re: quick question
> > >Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 22:16:25 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >
> > >ok.. had a problem.. all i can get right now is the amazons. ill send
>out
> >a
> > >money order tomorrow. how much exactly do you want me to have it
>written
> > >for?
> > >chuck
> > > Chen Lai wrote:Forgot to mention, if you do decide to purchase the atb
> > >and etb, I will give
> > >a total of 1800 shipping included. Chen
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: chuck butler
> > > >To: [email protected]
> > > >Subject: quick question
> > > >Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:28:25 -0700 (PDT)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >thanks for your prompt e-mails with me.. im getting the money ready
>for
> > >the
> > > >amazons if they are still available..
> > > >
> > > >i was also woundering on the locality of your emeralds that you are
> > > >selling.
> > > >
> > > >thanks
> > > >
> > > >chuck.. alaska
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---------------------------------
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its ok chen.. i still want the girls shipped.. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??

i never wrote that! give it up dude. ill take this as a loss as you are not wrthy enough to send me live snakes so why should i expect you to sent a refund.  keep the lies up man, you seem to be good at it.

first off if the snakes were shipped ups them more then likely they went through lexington kentucky that night..
look up what the temps were the night in question and see if the box had been left for a few hours on a runway could the snakes have frozen..
find out what time he dropped the snakes off by checking the routing page on the airbill..
it would have also said approx time on the tracking at ups website..then figure they got to your state at the time they were checked in at your local airport..( also would show on tracking at ups website )
using all those facts instead of this idiots fiction will nail him .
for some reason people dont seem to realize that when you ship a snake it doesnt just go from your state to his or vice versa..it goes to a hub and gets re routed and i always assume sits on a tarmack or runway for some amount of time waiting to be changed from one plane to another to be sent to you..

Chen, what do you have to say about DKpuma's accusation?  Is it true?  Did you enter his domicile when it seemed no one was home?  

And David Van Houten, what exactly was the point of making him think you were not home?  

And c'mon, Chen, you didn't know it was cold in Alaska?  I can see you maybe not knowing that it can get down into freezing temps in, say, Las Vegas, but Alaska?

OK, even if I accept EVRYTHING that Chen has said in his own defense (I don't, but play along with me here), I STILL have to say that this is a guy with whom one should not do business.  The reason?  Because he ships animals without taking the proper care to give them the best possible chance to arrive alive!

Chen, can you not go to the Weather Channel's web site and check out the forecast for Anchorage?  I mean, assuming you have no idea that it might be cold in Alaska (yeah, right), you still should have checked the weather forecast to make certain of the conditions to which you were shipping a living animal!  For all you knew, a cool pack was really necessary, but you'd never know because you don't take the time to find out!

Even if you can shift all the blame on the particulars of the transaction to the recipient (you can't), YOU (Chen) are still to blame for two animals dying from cold, because YOU didn't check to see what conditions they would suffer before YOU shipped.  Two animals are dead beccause YOU didn't want to spend the $1 to provide a heat pack without being specifically asked to do so by the purchaser?  In my opinion, that is irresponsible and shows a complete lack of concern for the ANIMALS (You, know . . .the reason we're all supposed to be doing this? ).  

I wouldn't buy from anyone who is in it solely for the money, and when I see stupid stuff like this, that's exactly what I think you are all about!  I wouldn't buy from you, and I hope no else does either!

Shame on you <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I caught him walking into my house uninvited</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>can we get juicy details of the dates and times...

And what his excuse was?

Where are Chen and Van Houten?  We are waiting for more details from Van Houten and some sort of explanation from Chen.  Both of you seem to be silent...  Let's hear it from someone.  

We are all waiting....