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Abusive Mishandling, Caution- Graphic Video

Seamus Haley

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I saw this video when it was linked in the Fauna chatroom.

It was created by a registered member, although was not shown to me by them. My understanding is that it was supposed to be somehow... instructional.

This thread is not being created on the BOI, so I am leaving my comments as... non-confrontational... as possible. It does look like clear video evidence of animal abuse however, so the responses may be heated and it may warrant either reposting or being moved if the mods feel this forum was an inappropriate choice.

Caution- before clicking on the link below, please understand that this video is relatively graphic and depicts an animal being callously mishandled to the point of abuse. It is not pretty and the animal shown in the video subsequently died.

 
I have had like 3 or 4 different replies to this partially typed out, then erased them.

All I have to say right now is that assist feeding snakes is a delicate and time consuming thing. That's why I hate doing it. I have never used one of those pinkie pumps, so I cannot comment on proper use of it.
 
I'm with Kelli I've never used a pump to force feed so can't really say one way or the other about how these folks used it. But to me it didn't look all that bad and if it isn't eating and needs food you have to do what you have to do. Randy
 
Well...my first thought was "Why the heck did she wait til the snake was 20 grams to intervene", and the second was "Why did she use a pinky pump". Rather than just let my fingers respond, I decided to ask Deb for some details. As it turns out, the answers made some sense...
- the snake was one of a pair of twins, and hatched at approximately 27g. It was tiny to begin with, and not thriving. (so she didn't let the thing lose massive amounts of weight before intervening...despite the fact that 7g was about 1/4 of its hatch weight)
- she had never force fed a snake before, and, based on what she read & was told, she felt that the pinky press was the way to go. She didn't feel that the snake was big enough to take a pink, so she thought the pinkie pump would be easier and safer.

I did not ask why she made the video of the event, nor does it really matter to me (people make videos out of all sorts of things that I wouldn't...to each his own).

Now, as to whether it is callous mishandling and/or abuse. If nothing else, it was good intentioned - she was trying to save the snake. I have force fed LOTS of snakes over the years, ranging in size from neonate eyelash & temple vipers to about 7 ft anacondas. Frequently, it isn't pretty...especially when they are as determined not to take the prey item as I am that they will. I am quite certain that if somebody were to have recorded some of those efforts, I could easily be accused of the same things.
This WAS Deb's first attempt at forcefeeding, and her preparation consisted of talking to others and reading...nobody showed her. You can argue that she didn't demonstrate the best technique, or that she was rougher than she needed to be...but she tried. Maybe the video wasn't the best idea...or it should have been reshot to show more ideal imagery...but it isn't always smooth and easy. Granted, if it was for the purpose of education - demonstrating the technique for first timers - it might have been better to have shown everything as gentle and smooth as possible. Maybe, though, her initial thought was not with posting online...it was to record this event for herself. I suspect that when the time came that it was posted (whether by her, or not), her thought was that if it can help somebody, Sure, why not. I think it is only recently that Deb has had to consider the idea that somebody might find fault with anything (everything) she does.


I am with Kelli on this, though - I have never used a pinky pump, either. I do recognize the dangers associated with introducing a metal cannula into the mouth and esophagus...but, then again, I use tweezers and whole prey items (when possible). Deb made her choice based on what she felt would be less traumatic for the snake...and I can't fault her for that.
Sometimes it is easy to forget that we were once new at this, and many tasks were not second nature as they are now. You weren't always perfect Seamus, I'm sure you've made a mistake or two along the way. I know tolerance isn't your strong suit, but you don't always HAVE to be a ****
 
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I bought and

used my pinkie pump back in the early 90's. Used it a couple times and didn't like it. Haven't used it since. Found it easier to force feed with tweezers and whole pinks. It is difficult to use and rough on the snake. I put a small plastic tube on mine to protect the snake. It's easy to aspirate the snake, especially without the tube extension.
 
Ah jeez it's catching, I too have typed out 3 responses to this thread. However, if a bashing is being looked for here, some will and some will not.

When I was new, I was learning, unfortunately trial and error sometimes resulted in my getting bit, or the animal dying much later on.

I learned how to probe on cadavers, they were my wild caught Mandarin rat snakes. The animals were immediately taken to the vet for a health check and were loaded with parasites. My vet gave me a lesson on giving oral meds and my biggest fear was asperating the animals. That didn't happen, however being wild caught, they never ate or drank and ended up passing from stress and heat. (we got socked with one of the famous Cali heat waves)

I agree with Harald, making a video of this was probably made for her own education and not ours.

I am glad that I was a member of a herp club and worked in a shop at the time. I was going to buy and use a pinky pump at one time, I was talked out of it by club members and my co-workers.
 
Just a thought if Deb happens to read this thread.. I've force feed some small babies, Chondro's, Emeralds, Solomon Island tree boas ETC some down around 10 grams or less. While most of these little guys can handle a small mouse pinkie I found using the leg of a chick works best. The part that is just like the chicken leg kids like to eat. The smooth rounded ends make them perfect for the job and the bone also makes it easier for you to push it down their throat.... Randy
 
Just to be clear here... the video shows someone agressively mishandling an animal in every sense possible and the action is being defended by an argument of "she didn't know any better"?

Quite frankly, that is exactly why it should not have been done. Undertaking an invasive physical procedure based on a written description without ever having seen it performed is the height of ignorant abuse.

Pinky pumps were designed for use with species where the animal is physically delicate enough to make more traditional force feeding difficult simply because of the size of the animal being fed and to assist with the digestive process by breaking down the prey item in advance. It's also occassionally favored by individuals who have large enough collections where the more time consuming assist feeding may be an impossibility- although those are obviously rarer situations.

A ball python, even a runt that resulted from twinning, is physically large enough so that an individual who attempts to be delicate should be able to manipulate the animal using their own hands.

There is the option of using softer plastic or rubber tips on the tube but, even if that option is not taken, once the tube is inserted a short way (rather than to it's maximum possible distance) basic common sense would dictate that the animal needs to be restrained and supported so that the body does not move sideways and allow the tube to cause physical damage where the tip is present and ridgid inside the snake.

That animal was treated like a water balloon- shoved forcefully over a nozzle and allowed to hang below (twisting and writhing) while excessive pressure was put on it's skull and jaw to keep it in place. One does not need specific experience using a pinky pump to see why that handling was inappropriate, they simply need eyes and some common sense.

And Harald... my tendency to respond to situations is proportional to the severity of the infraction. Someone using a substrate I do not care for may get a casual comment when I think there's a safer alternative. Someone practicing husbandry which is not condusive to the safety and health of an animal may get a more extensive lecture or a more agressive response... When someone takes an animal in their hands and physically breaks it, yeah, I'm critical and I'm angry. Anyone who thinks that the action depicted in that video is appropriate should simply not own any.

She posted it on her website after a message that came across as excited about the prospect of "proving out the twin gene" (apparantly producing runts that required assist feeding was a positive goal too) and immediately before the message that indicated the animal pictured had died. I saved it locally and reposted it on a photobucket account to ensure that it couldn't be made to dissapear.
 
Seamus Haley said:
Just to be clear here... the video shows someone agressively mishandling an animal in every sense possible and the action is being defended by an argument of "she didn't know any better"?
My refusal to villify her for attempting to intervene for the snake's benefit is not exactly defending her because she didn't know any better. I recognized that she didn't demonstrate the best technique, and was rougher than necessary...I just coupled that with the acknowledgement (based on personal experience) that forcefeeding a snake is not always a smooth & simple procedure.

Seamus Haley said:
Quite frankly, that is exactly why it should not have been done. Undertaking an invasive physical procedure based on a written description without ever having seen it performed is the height of ignorant abuse.
I suspect that if she hadn't bothered try to get food into the snake, your stance would have been that she willfully neglected the animal, and that her failing to accommodate its nutritional needs directly resulted in its death...and she was therefore unfit to be keeping snakes. Kind of a darned if you do, darned if you don't situation, isn't it?
As long as we are on this topic, I guess I should step up to the plate and let you record my name in the Displayed the Height of Ignorant Abuse column, since I was never instructed in "proper techniques" for forcefeeding - it needed to be done, and I did it, and likely without nearly the investigation that Deb put forth (the basic concept seemed straight forward enough :shrug01: ).

Seamus Haley said:
A ball python, even a runt that resulted from twinning, is physically large enough so that an individual who attempts to be delicate should be able to manipulate the animal using their own hands.
Agreed...but Deb felt that the snake was too small to take a pinky. Regardless of what OUR experience tells US, other keepers have every right (and are often expected) to use their own judgement. People make mistakes, and hopefully learn from them so they are not repeated.

Seamus Haley said:
There is the option of using softer plastic or rubber tips on the tube but, even if that option is not taken, once the tube is inserted a short way (rather than to it's maximum possible distance) basic common sense would dictate that the animal needs to be restrained and supported so that the body does not move sideways and allow the tube to cause physical damage where the tip is present and ridgid inside the snake.
Agreed

Seamus Haley said:
And Harald... my tendency to respond to situations is proportional to the severity of the infraction. Someone using a substrate I do not care for may get a casual comment when I think there's a safer alternative. Someone practicing husbandry which is not condusive to the safety and health of an animal may get a more extensive lecture or a more agressive response... When someone takes an animal in their hands and physically breaks it, yeah, I'm critical and I'm angry.
I understand that, Seamus...but the simple point remains that many people would respond better to, and get more out of, the information you provide (and even your criticisms) if you lightened the approach just a bit. You are quick to consider somebody not willing to learn, or unaccepting of the benefit of your (or other's) experience; but your approach tends to alienate the recipient rather than encourage "learning". The typical response is more likely to be "what a jerk" than "wow, that guy really knows what he is talking about". I realize that your goal is not necessarily to be seen as the friend of the neophytes (or anybody else, for that matter)...but if you are going to take an attitude when people don't listen to you, you should be able to realize that part of the reason lies with you.

Seamus Haley said:
Anyone who thinks that the action depicted in that video is appropriate should simply not own any.
I don't recall saying, or reading, that it was appropriate...just that people weren't particularly compelled to condemn her for her efforts.
 
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me said:
I understand that, Seamus...but the simple point remains that many people would respond better to, and get more out of, the information you provide (and even your criticisms) if you lightened the approach just a bit. You are quick to consider somebody not willing to learn, or unaccepting of the benefit of your (or other's) experience; but your approach tends to alienate the recipient rather than encourage "learning". The typical response is more likely to be "what a jerk" than "wow, that guy really knows what he is talking about". I realize that your goal is not necessarily to be seen as the friend of the neophytes (or anybody else, for that matter)...but if you are going to take an attitude when people don't listen to you, you should be able to realize that part of the reason lies with you.
For the record, I do understand that you are who you are...and, for the most part, I like you that way. Clearly, you are intelligent, and can express yourself well...its just that once you decide you dislike somebody, you take great measures to demonstrate that sentiment. Sometimes, I think you go overboard; but that and the change in my pocket will get me another 20 oz bottle of Dr Pepper :shrug01: . Meh - nothing I haven't told you before, lol.
In all fairness, I do have to admit that you were nicer than I would have anticipated for this thread, given both the subject matter and your feelings about Deb.
 
I don't know but I don't see any abuse in that Video, I see someone trying to save the critters life the best way she could.. Heck Seamus I remember my first attempt at shoving a pinkie down ones throat and dropping the little sucker on the concrete floor, it did survive but there have been others that haven't.

Maybe I'm a bit more hardened to things like this, it could come from my misspent youth IE Calving season, March in Montana with my hands shoved up the South end of a North bound cow, at least my hands got warm!! The way I look at it is that it is better to have tried something, anything than to have done nothing... Randy
 
I've never used a pinky pump either but I've seen enough pics of them to know that it shouldn't be used if help is not around. I watched the video a few times and seen the sharp pointy end push against areas that it shouldn't have if the extra set of hands that popped up after damage was done had been there from the start.

If she had researched the different ways to get food into the animals , then why did she pick the absolute most invasive with a higher possibility of damage? Tube feeding would have been infinitely better that what had happened. At 20 grams either of those BPs were big enough for some sized mouse and properly assist fed. After seeing the size of the one baby in the video , I KNOW somewhere she could have found a proper size food item and saying " It was too small to take a pinky " leaves me to think she was referring to a rat pink. If she took the time to research pinky pumping the babies , somewhere in the research or the questions she was asking , someone would have told her to try mice. Its not rocket science to see one item is too big and move to a smaller one.

I'm assuming the reference book in the video that was opened was describing the process. I would think it would also describe the process of tube feeding or the proper form of assist feeding.

I've force fed and assist fed , even going so far as to tube feed to try and save the life of animal or getting it feeding. At any time they squirmed to the point I was afraid damage would be done , I let the animal go. In the video I seen an animal fighting against a metal tube in its throat and the owner fighting to keep it there. It may have been the sound of the recorder but it even sounded as though teeth were being broke as she used the pump to force its mouth open. Don't even get me started on her popping the head up and down like she was packing sugar in a balloon.

All in all , two animals that may or may not have died anyway , died prematurely due to very invasive treatment. For 2 grams of food no less. I can only wonder what other attempts were made before that since the baby in the video had good enough size to try less stressful or invasive procedures.
 
I've used a pinkypump for years, mostly on slow starting calkings but on a great variety of snakes. The metal tube that goes into the esophagus of the snake is rounded to it won't hurt the snake. You can break teeth but I doubt that teeth that size would make enough noise to be heard though I did not watch the video with the sound on. The main danger/problem with the pinkypump is pumping air along with the pureed (?) pinky. You can see the space between the pinks in the loaded tube before she feeds the snake and you can also see how it blows up like a baloon, veritably assuring that there was more air than pinky pumped into the snake.

As far as rough handling, it was bad but I've seen worse which in no way excuses deb for being as rough and inexperienced as she was.

Should any of you find yourself in the position to use a pinkypump, and they are quite easy to use, do NOT try to shove rendered pinky down the snakes throat. They can easily asperate the goo and choke to death. You want to pump and remove the instrument with as little, preferably NO, left over pinky parts in the snakes mouth.

Also, shove the pinkies down in the tube prior to feeding the neonate. You may well have to tear skin and mangle the pinks to pack them properly but they should be dead before you put them in the tube anyway. Air is NOT your friend here.

A slurry with a rubber tube would have been easier and just as nutricious.
 
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The advertisements for that pinky pump make it sound easy. I've never used one~ but only because I was too cheap to buy one and I knew how to tube feed a puppy.....so I was pretty sure (and correct) that I could accomplish the same thing with a rubber feeding tube, an oral syringe, and pinky puree............

Thats me coming at it with some prior knowledge........

If I had no prior knowledge of tubing puppies.....and I read the advertisements for the Pinky Pump.......that could have been any one of us with no real expierience and relying on the advertisments that make it sound like an easy answer.
 
Wilomn said:
I've used a pinkypump for years, mostly on slow starting calkings but on a great variety of snakes. The metal tube that goes into the esophagus of the snake is rounded to it won't hurt the snake.

Since you've used one and I haven't , I defer to your description and stand corrected.
 
I have force fed pinky heads to 10g hatchling cornsnakes without use of a pinky pump or tubing. I imagine a 20g hatchling bp would be just as simple to force feed as the cornsnakes.

I have no experience with pinky pumps, but that sure did look awful to me. I imagine anyone watching any method of force feeding would think it looks awful though. :shrug01:
 
Guess I'll express a few things more specifically, to explain why I came to the conclusion that I did.

First- the decision to force feed the animal to begin with, it's origin as far as I know it. The video was shown to me in the fauna chat room, then I was aimed at it's point of origination. I've screenshotted the page on Deborah's site where it was stuck... Her presentation of it to the public was on a page detailing her projects and was as follows-

"It's been a great day for Deb's Captive Bred Ball Pythons! Our Yellow-back pairing was successful! Our first hatching produced twins! We will be holding these back to prove out that the twin gene and see if the dam, sire or hatchlings throw more twins in the future... stay tuned!"

Followed by-

"I have been assist feeding the twins. They weighted 20-25 grams at birth. Their weight remains stable."

Then the URL to her own photobucket account where the video was hosted and the following quote-

"Unfortunately, the twins never thrived and did not survive."

To sum that up, Deborah apparantly believed that twinning is the result of a genetic tendency rather than a result of the physical action involved in the fertilization process and wished to attempt to duplicate the production of neonates that were splitting the yolk contents between two developing offspring and the undersized runt failure to thrive snakes that resulted. I would call that position alone morally reprehensible and biologically irresponsible, it conflicts directly with my stance that anyone seeking to breed animals should make every effort to only contribute positively to the captive populations.

Moving on, her choice to assist feed to begin with is one that is questionable at best. Encouraging the continued existance of animals which are clearly suffering from a debilitating condition from the moment they hatch is irresponsible. Further, while she is incorrect in assuming a genetic cause, the fact that she thinks one exists indicates that she feels these animals are likely to produce similar offspring, with a similar set of problems and went out of her way to actively seek their continued existance, rather than euthanizing them.

I have never personally come across a description of force feeding or assist feeding for any method which was not covered in disclaimers about the inherent invasiveness and the need to excersize extreme care. The overwhelming majority of written descriptions stress the value of being shown the proper technique rather than attempting it blind. This is an example of Deborah's continued posturing as a competent, educated individual which leads to her overstepping the boundaries of her experience to the detriment of her own animals and the animals of those who believe she is as she presents herself... a successful, experienced breeder.

Moving on to what is directly presented in the video. She makes a choice to use the smoothed edges of the metal tube rather than a softer, more versatile attachment of rubber or plastic. This is a direct result of her inexperience and her inexperience and ignorance is the core of the abuse. An individual with no business trying what she tried will make ignorant mistakes, this should not be overlooked, forgiven or seen as an excuse, it should be seen as further condemnation of the person who chooses to go ahead regardless of their naevity.

For me the video is displaying with a time indicator of the duration remaining rather than the duration played... At around two minutes remaining, she grips the snake in preparation for the feeding, choosing to hold the animal with the thumb, index and middle finger of her left hand just below the head, with the body dangling free below the point of contact. That handling approach is entirely inappropriate regardless of the activity being performed and it alone would have warranted an accusation (and proof) of mishandling conducive to injury, especially with the proportional weight distribution of a terrestrial boid and especially with the thinner, more delicate skeletal structure of a neonate (and a runt neonate at that).

Approximately seven seconds later, she first attempts to introduce the pump to the animal. She does not choose to use a specula, a makeshift specula of any kind, her own fingertips or those of the other people present while this is being shot (at least one holding the camera and one additional set of hands shown later in the video) to open the mouth for a proper and precise insertion into the throat but rather applies pressure to the base of the jaw while pushing and rubbing the tip of the tube against the animal's lips, teeth and gums in an effort to get it's mouth open. The animal is *still* being held in a manner which does not support or control the dangling weight of the body and begins thrashing from the neck as a response.

Several seconds after that, her finger grip shifts upwards, with pressure between her thumb and index finger being applied to the eyes and skull with sufficient force to continue holding the animal's weight against it's increasing struggles.

Around 1:34 remaining, she manages to get the tube into the mouth... While the easiest assumption is that it was inserted into the throat, the animal's mouth is still barely open wide enough to admit the tube and there's no possibility of visually verifying it's placement in the throat rather than the trachea. If it was inserted into the trachea, it would most easily explain the immediate bubbling "regurge" shown after the tube is removed, although it's impossible from what is shown to draw a 100% undeniable conclusion. Note at this time, that however the tube is being inserted, the lack of control and support over the animal's body has allowed it to curl it's neck at a tight angle immediately behind the skull, so that when the ridgid tube enters and is pushed forward, the tube itself is responsible for the subsequent straigtening of the animal. Think carefully about the specific forces that are being applied internally as the coil is forced straight by pressure inside the throat. While the surgical steel is rouned off, it's still ridgid and it's still about as thick around as a pencil.

Around 1:28 remaining, the nozzle section of the feeding tube is now fully inserted, certainly to a depth that is more than sufficient to utilize the pinky pump. The front teeth and jaw are now touching the thicker section of the tube which contains the intended food items... While snakes have elastile tendons in their jaw and the ability to swallow larger prey items, the pressure which begins being applied and the ridgidity of the item being inserted now again apply pressure and force in a manner that is completely contradictory to the method of action that a snake's jaw is intended to exhibit. At this time, the load inside the pump can also be seen. As Wes noted, there's a lot of space between the whole prey items and the mass of prey that's being given to an undersized animal which has been exhibiting feeding issues is excessive. When a half sized neonate hasn't eaten for a sufficient amount of time to begin dropping weight, six or more pinkies is in itself an inappropriate choice.

1:23, the animal is treated as a water balloon. It's being held upright with absolutely nothing supporting it's body, Deborah is using two fingertips to maintain pressure sufficient to keep the smooth, ridgid tube in place as she inserts the pump far further than it was intended to be inserted, forcing the snake to open it's jaw and throat around the bulk of the tool. The remaining three fingers of that hand are actually pulled completely away and are held straight so as to not contact or support the animal. The writhing becomes more intense.

1:13 remaining, the animal attempts to ball and is unable to do so due to the ridgid tube, however the body is left uncontrolled so that it's efforts again allow excessive pressure to be placed internally in the areas where it is attempting to bend itself against the nozzle tip.

Around 1:00, she finally gets the second person to straighten the animal as she continues depressing the plunger of the pump. During the process of plunging, she begins withdrawing it so as to complete the depression with the nozzle loose in the mouth, squirting pinky mash over both the throat and the opening to the trachea.

Around 50 seconds remaining, she shakes the pump up and down in relation to the animal's now restrained throat and lower jaw.


The snake was simply callously and roughly handled in a manner that was likely to cause injury as a result during a process the owner had no business undertaking to begin with and no understanding of what was being done that was wrong. I sincerely do not care if abuse is the result of intention or ignorance, the end result is identical and the animal in question is the one that suffered for it.
 
You're right Seamus, you're right. I think it was just ignorance and innocent at that. Can we agree on that?
 
I would call that position alone morally reprehensible and biologically irresponsible, it conflicts directly with my stance that anyone seeking to breed animals should make every effort to only contribute positively to the captive populations.

Excellent post Seamus, excellent. There just one thing that maybe, could have been modified as Kelli suggests. Instead of almost calling her immoral and irresponsible I agree that ignorance (not as an insult but just "unaware or uninformed", and innocent are maybe better adjectives.

But again, I agree with your stance. One thing she might consider for the future is to use a clear plastic tube sized accordingly to the diameter of the snake as a method to avoid the body to be hanging freely and trying to coil (just like the ones we use to handle hots).

Best regards
 
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