Adeno Thoughts

[draggintails]

Sherri,

Thank you for making some calls. Yes CA Avian.., he is a bit rude and he is like that to other vets too so don't be put out. He is also willing to offer information and becomes much nicer...he does accept samples in for dragon adeno PCR testing through vets of course but outsources them to VMD..he has not received samples though.



Tracie,

1. With the incident that just happened it is not professional for you to make statements that you have a negative breeder testing and retesting with verified negatives and be unwilling to provide proof for those that ask. It was originally said that these results would be posted on the breeders page, when this was retracted that stirs skepticism that alludes to deceit.

2. With the many hundreds of thousands of dragons out there you do not know the scale that are poor doers vs. the good doers. This has to be established to make a statement like this.

3. If data is going to be viewed and gathered...it should not be done so by you. PATS has been corrupted...hear me out here. False information was given to the entire reptile world on your website/posts/verbally. This information was not even attempted to be verified yesterday by you after all of this, but another person did this. It is your responsibility and as you say.."viewed and gathered by me". You did not make an attempt today to verify.

3. The data is already corrupted. That data should absolutely not be collected and gathered by you. The data should be collected by a university (Lou Ann has data and so does FL) each breeder who wishes to be labled as a "negative breeder" can post their official (on the lab's return form) on their websites for public verification..if you copy and email those results with a header to the university on that paper they will confirm or deny that those are their results (April and Lou Anne do this very quickly)..that is perfectly legal and breaches no confidentiality laws if it is posted on the web and they are all happy to do this as you have witnessed in the past.

4. I think we all agree that we see no one here with an agenda, it is perplexing that you keep saying this. I see several people who happen to be breeders doing a lot of research and posting all information they get and being very honest about their testing situation and colonies.

5. We do see you as having an agenda and it is to be right all the time and to pound your beliefs into others at the expense of hurting(check your old posts re: Dachiu, Sandfire, and a few others) others when you did not do an ounce of research to find out if this was global or truly to be blamed on breeders. PATS would have been done properly if it was for the animals. Non existent data and unverified persons would not have been mentioned. Tracie, I truly do not see anyone participating in this organization.

6. The reason it has not been done before by an individual: Well, if an individual wants to take this on for the purposes of statistics and organization of official negative breeders: legal will advise to file for 501C3 which could take up to a year any medical or data gathering organization should be set up legally with the government and have officers and a board..there must be balance. With a 501C3 the public is able to view any documents (medical/financial/correspondence) of said organization, it is illegal to withold any document that the public asks to view.

 

[draggintails]

I have been contacting every university and Zoo as well as all govt. labs that I can find to find out what the status of the AU wild dragons are. I have made appeals to several Zoo's for a wild population study and I have received my first query response from the Taronga Zoo, she gave me 4 cases of adeno found in wild dragons but I cannot open the files..it is night there so I have to wait until 7:00pm my time to ask her to resend the case files:

Tammy,

We have permits in place that may help us to provide fixed (formalin or ethanol fixed) tissues to the USA for diagnostic testing. If this is to go further, perhaps we should consider a project proposal and grant applications to pay for the diagnostic work.

Please let me know if there is any additional information that I can supply. Thank you for your report.

Best Wishes,

Karrie


______________________________________

Karrie Rose DVM, DVSc
Australian Registry of Wildlife Health
Taronga Conservation Society Australia


This is something I wish to know for myself so I will speak with her and see if we can put together a proposal to the govt. for collection of wild animals for a study. If anyone is interested I can post up these case files when I get them opened and post my correspondence and my completed proposal.

 

[mikey]

I started this project & I will continue it by collecting tests & data. If any data is going to be viewed, it is going to be viewed and gathered by me. I have no agenda since I am not a breeder I have nothing to lose or gain. The data does not need to be scattered at a million different places where it can easily be corrupted or lost.
I am all for getting help. I have no problem with that. I just want it done & with someone who is not looking to have any type of agenda.

Tracie

Tracie,
The trust in your PATS Society is gone, GONE, GONE forever. You were proven to be DISHONEST. You have CORRUPTED DATA and LIED. It is clearly time for you to move on. Please take down PATS. Do not embarrass yourself or the bearded dragon community any further. Please take some time to reflect. You are clearly in over your head. We do not need or will tolerate another CHERIS. Get back to the basics and offer non ego driven, basic care advice. Seek out the EXPERIENCED when you are unsure, just don't wing it. Take a trip to a large breeder's facility and truly learn. I am sure any number of them would give you their time. Make the decision today to disband PATS and your "clients" or honest, unaltered data and facts will be generated via a new site. GAME UP !

BOYCOTTTHEPATS.COM
BOYCOTTTHEPATSSITE.COM
AVOIDTHEPATS.COM

 

[Tere Salazar]

Just a quick observation and question...

How many times are you guys planning on threatening Tracie with do this, or this will happen?

Give it a rest already. It's completely uncalled for.

 

[mikey]

Tere, This needs to and IS GOING TO STOP. We have tried to get her to see, but this is from just last night..


by Drache613 on Mon May 12, 2008 6:22 pm
Hello,

For those who are not aware of what has been going on regarding the Adeno virus discussion, some of the larger breeders freely admitted today after being forced to admit that they were in fact completely infected with the adeno virus. Dachiu & JMD dragons was a couple, but I cannot remember if there were any others. You are welcome to go to the http://www.faunaclassifieds.com & go to the discussion of the bearded dragons & you will see it is most likely the top one or two on the threads.
If you wish to discuss it here that is fine. However, please keep it civilized.


Tracie

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=80372&sid=4d55df6b1eadbebf645134d48ec508b4

 

[Tere Salazar]

Tere, This needs to and IS GOING TO STOP. We have tried to get her to see, but this is from just last night..


by Drache613 on Mon May 12, 2008 6:22 pm
Hello,

For those who are not aware of what has been going on regarding the Adeno virus discussion, some of the larger breeders freely admitted today after being forced to admit that they were in fact completely infected with the adeno virus. Dachiu & JMD dragons was a couple, but I cannot remember if there were any others. You are welcome to go to the http://www.faunaclassifieds.com & go to the discussion of the bearded dragons & you will see it is most likely the top one or two on the threads.
If you wish to discuss it here that is fine. However, please keep it civilized.


Tracie

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=80372&sid=4d55df6b1eadbebf645134d48ec508b4

But, Jean, how is threatening her if she doesn't shut down PATS going to do any good? It's not. Nobody responds well to threats of any kind. Maybe allowing Tracie and PATS to succeed or fail, without being threatened, all on its own (can't think of the word I want to use here...need more coffee) is a more civilized approach.

 

[Tere Salazar]

*Edit: attributes would have been that word.

 

[Valley Dragons]

by Drache613 on Mon May 12, 2008 6:22 pm
Hello,

For those who are not aware of what has been going on regarding the Adeno virus discussion, some of the larger breeders freely admitted today after being forced to admit that they were in fact completely infected with the adeno virus. Dachiu & JMD dragons was a couple, but I cannot remember if there were any others. You are welcome to go to the http://www.faunaclassifieds.com & go to the discussion of the bearded dragons & you will see it is most likely the top one or two on the threads.
If you wish to discuss it here that is fine. However, please keep it civilized.


Tracie

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/...45134d48ec508b4

So these breeders were FORCED to come clean and say that they are COMPLETELY infected with adeno? Wow, I just love the way you worded that, Tracie.

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

by Drache613 on Mon May 12, 2008 6:22 pm
Hello,



So these breeders were FORCED to come clean and say that they are COMPLETELY infected with adeno? Wow, I just love the way you worded that, Tracie.

Jamie

Um...yet you say they freely admitted it? Huh?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Is this a BOI thread against PATS?

Goddamn.... This thread isnt even worth reading anymore.

 

[mikey]

Is this a BOI thread against PATS?

Goddamn.... This thread isnt even worth reading anymore.

It seems to be heading that way.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

It seems to be heading that way.

then take it where its appropriate.

 

[GottaLuvHerps]

where did we come from?

What was the reason all those new bearded people come over from the other forums anyway?

I am in the process of reading all of this, and i wanted to step in and answer this quickly before getting into my opinions of this conversation.

A bunch of us came from another forum (that will remain un-named) because of issues that began with the webmaster banning people for no reason. I was one of those people. I was banned because I was having a personal disagreement with the webmaster over removing a post, which was kept private, and when I posted that I may be leaving or taking a break, he not only banned my logon, but banned my IP address from being able to even view the forum. It got out on the forum that this had happened to me, which I guess for some was the "last straw," as I was a core member of that forum for over 4 years. Because these members voiced their opinions on what happened, and on some other subjects, some were banned, some chose to leave. So one of the members (not me), contacted Rich, asked him if he minded us coming over, explained the situation, and we were invited to come and join up.

So now you know why we are here. I can vouch for people like Beth (BeardiePal), Sean (Heartmountain), and probably a few others if I knew their names on the other forum as good, knowledgeable people who will bring lots to this forum.

Sorry, I know, off topic, but I wanted to let you all know why we are here invading

Kelly Kordek

 

[Tere Salazar]

Sorry, I know, off topic, but I wanted to let you all know why we are here invading

Kelly Kordek

I personally think it's nice to see some fresh faces, and don't consider that an invasion at all. Welcome!

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I am in the process of reading all of this, and i wanted to step in and answer this quickly before getting into my opinions of this conversation.

A bunch of us came from another forum (that will remain un-named) because of issues that began with the webmaster banning people for no reason. I was one of those people. I was banned because I was having a personal disagreement with the webmaster over removing a post, which was kept private, and when I posted that I may be leaving or taking a break, he not only banned my logon, but banned my IP address from being able to even view the forum. It got out on the forum that this had happened to me, which I guess for some was the "last straw," as I was a core member of that forum for over 4 years. Because these members voiced their opinions on what happened, and on some other subjects, some were banned, some chose to leave. So one of the members (not me), contacted Rich, asked him if he minded us coming over, explained the situation, and we were invited to come and join up.

So now you know why we are here. I can vouch for people like Beth (BeardiePal), Sean (Heartmountain), and probably a few others if I knew their names on the other forum as good, knowledgeable people who will bring lots to this forum.

Sorry, I know, off topic, but I wanted to let you all know why we are here invading

Kelly Kordek

Its all good, i was just trying to get an idea of what exactly was going on, if this was a continuance of another thread on a different forum, or something new that popped up as the result of the controversial nature of the topic.

new people are more than welcome

 

[Bearded Wizard]

I think it's time that we wrapped this one up on the right foot as we have proven our points... I think it would be appropriate for Jeff to do a closing statement since he is the OP... Granted I'm sure someone else will come along later and possibly posted scientific results, but that can be posted under a new thread. I think we all can agree that we can stick a fork in this topic as it's done!

Anthony

 

[Dachiu]

Hello,
For those who are not aware of what has been going on regarding the Adeno virus discussion, some of the larger breeders freely admitted today after being forced to admit that they were in fact completely infected with the adeno virus. Dachiu & JMD dragons was a couple, but I cannot remember if there were any others. You are welcome to go to the http://www.faunaclassifieds.com & go to the discussion of the bearded dragons & you will see it is most likely the top one or two on the threads.
If you wish to discuss it here that is fine. However, please keep it civilized.
Tracie

Tracie, why would you post something like this on BD.Org? No breeders have been ‘forced’ into admitting anything. We ourselves, have been repeating the same thing consistently for the last 2 years. There is much more information here than what you allude to - including your mistake.

I just do not believe that they all have it, even in the wild.

No one said that they ALL have it. That is a comment that you have been making. Bottom line is that it doesn’t matter to what degree the dragons in the wild have Adenovirus. A percentage were exported from the wild population that do have it - what percentage? No one knows. How long ago? No one knows.
The results of this are that there is a very high prevalence of Adenovirus in the captive population. Why? 1. Because this virus is stable in the environment. 2. It is easily contracted. 3. Many dragons are asymptomatic. 4. Captive circumstances of dragons in general (they are raised in groups when young, eat/poo many times a day - therefore dramatically increasing the rate of exposure.)

Too many dragons are poor doers anymore, & it is sad… I am just wondering why this has not been attempted before??

Reality is - there have always been ‘poor doers’… there will always be ‘poor doers’… An example is the Breeders Network. Why do you think that was established years ago? Because too many hatchlings were being sent out at too young of an age and dieing. Another example - the old archives on kingsnake.com are littered with problems. Another example is the published mortality rates from 20+ years ago - 9-24% in the first 4 months says one book, another book says to expect a few from each clutch. Mortality means dead. The rest of the animals are in varying stages of health.
Please do not portray that ‘poor doers’ are a new problem that have come about due to adenovirus. There are many breeders today achieving less than 10% mortality rates and some small breeders with 100% hatch/survival rates - with positive tested colonies.

Anyone who finds themselves with a ‘poor doer’ should contact the breeder the animal was purchased from. Most breeders will troubleshoot through possible issues/adjustments which usually helps the animals get back on track or rectify the situation. I can assure you dosing very young animals who are not eating with medications is a very fast and effective way to kill dragons. Minor changes to husbandry usually have better rewards.


There are many misconceptions due to misinformation that is consistently circulated. Due to these misconceptions, more problems are promoted, learning ceases and confusion sets in - especially for a beginner.

A general example is that larger animals are deemed healthier. Some keepers have preconceived notions/ideas of what size/weight constitutes a healthy animal at a given time. We have a ‘just shy of’ 24 inch (9 inch s/v) dragon and a 16 inch (7.5 inch s/v) dragon in our group. These are fully grown adults and over 3 years old with only 1.5 inch difference in s/v measurement - yet due to tail length, they are almost 8 inches apart. Most people visualize the 16 inch dragon as an inferior, weaker animal that it has stunted growth, been inbred or is infected with adenovirus to account for her small size. This is utter nonsense. Her smaller size is more accurately attributed to the area of Au that her ancestors were collected from, what stock the lines were bred to, her overall body structure and the breeding program in Europe that does not place such significance on size to define health.

Many of the symptoms of adenovirus that are plastered all over the internet are also misconceptions… some may have a basis of truth.
1. Dragons flailing around the cage while being sprayed with water - This is one of the 1st symptoms attributed to adenovirus. As an experienced keeper, we see this as animal behavior (fairly typical to the hypo line). If they are freaking out while being sprayed, they are obviously not drinking. Continuing this practice of watering the dragons through spraying them can lead to dehydration and higher levels of stress. Dehydration must be avoided in small dragons. Many keepers also have noticed that hypos can dehydrate easier, perhaps because of their lack of melanin they need to bask longer to achieve preferred body temperature. A better choice may be to allow them to soak in shallow water for a period of time. Someone who is new to the hobby sees this as a symptom of adenovirus because they read this on a forum. Breeders see it as animal behavior.

2. If two or more clutch-mates are kept together and one is much smaller, suspicion of adenovirus should be high - No. Dragons grow at varying rates, especially young ones. The animals should be separated by size to reduce stress on any of the smaller siblings. If varying sized dragons are left together the smaller ones can stress and not feed well - promoting retarded growth and ‘failure to thrive’. This is well documented information.

3. Clutches that incubate normally but have poor hatchability are suspected to have adenovirus - Years ago the average documented hatchability rates were around 80%. Speaking with many breeders today, we now enjoy a 90%+ hatchability.


Wading through all of the information that is consistently being presented regarding adenovirus and applying our experiences and research to that information to decipher if it is accurate and/or applicable is a daunting task. As with the examples above, there are many more explanations/reasons that the situation could occur. Adenovirus is NOT the only answer. Our experiences and research lead us to believe that adenovirus is not usually the “problem” it is made out to be.

 

[shadi11]

Hello,

Sherri, what did you find out at Cal Avian??
Vickie, that is fine, trying to establish negative colonies over time, is a great goal. I already have one breeder who has accomplished that for 2 years now. I believe that it can be done. Testing has been done 2 times per year for 2 years now.
I would definitely like to see it happen more. I just do not believe that they all have it, even in the wild. All we have is the one testing study that is it. That is in captivity. We do not have any testing studies for wild dragons, so assuming that all wild dragons have it is kind of like assuming all wild dogs would have parvo.
I believe it does happen in the wild, just due to disease of animals that will happen in nature, definitely. I just do not believe it occurs in the magnitude that we have allowed it to happen here in captivity, that's all.
I think it is our responsiblity as keepers, hobbyists, & breeders to do what we can to try & get it on a smaller scale. Too many dragons are poor doers anymore, & it is sad.
I started this project & I will continue it by collecting tests & data. If any data is going to be viewed, it is going to be viewed and gathered by me. I have no agenda since I am not a breeder I have nothing to lose or gain. The data does not need to be scattered at a million different places where it can easily be corrupted or lost. I have already gotten my form approved through U. of Illinois legal department & Lou Ann is very cooperative as well. All we need is for people to begin testing & that is all I have asked for over & over. That is the only way to get answers!
So, no problem at all. You know of anyone who "claims" that they have negatives, send them my way, & we can get them to testing. My requirements on pats are that they are to test 2 times per year, no exceptions. I think that is fair, financially. I would most definitely want to move toward PCR in conjunction with EM on negative test subjects, over time.
I am all for getting help. I have no problem with that. I just want it done & with someone who is not looking to have any type of agenda. Fair enough I think.
I am just wondering why this has not been attempted before??


Tracie

As for this breeder who's tested negative for two years. You guys reviewed the list before and know who it is. If you want the information from her its simple go to her. Instead of repeatedly mentioning her here go ask her for yourself.

 

[JeffnDes]

The main purpose of this thread was to show people that many problems are IMO and the opinions of many others the direct result from improper husbandry and not AV. It has gotten heated and there was a lot said and learned by many people. If we the breeders were able to open some peoples eyes and possibly change their thoughts before condeming a dragon to death due to AV then this was all worth it.

I see no reason to close this thread. In fact I would like to ask the moderators to consider making this thread a sticky. There is more usefull information in this thread alone on this topic then any other one to date.

As far as Tracies actions and posting on BD.org, well I would certainly expect nothing less for her to post on a forum where she is a moderator. It was said before by Tammy, this thread has not hurt us in any way. I have to believe that someone that was on the fence on this subject now has the answers they may have been looking for. Maybe those people can look further into their husbandry issues and make the corrections needed to provide the best enviroment possible for their dragons. No one wants to see dragons not thrive and if adjustments can be made to save even one dragon, then this thread is well worth the heartach and grief that it has caused anyone.

Tracie, I do not remember being forced into anything. The information that I provided was 100% on my own free will. You took yet another shot at discrediting me and again you came out looking as ignorant as always. You Tracie need to grow up. You are acting like a 2 year old that is not getting her way. Something can be said for all of the breeders on here for directly answering the questions we were asked. You on the other did disapearing acts when they were asked of you. You insinuate in more then one place that I was hiding something, when I called you out, you were no where to be found.

When I started this thread I completely and totally put myself out there in open view to the people on this forum. It could have quickly turned around and bit me hard, but it didnt. For a person who has put herself so high on a pedistool and as an advocate and creator of a "society" I have to believe you have let a lot of people down with you meaningless banter and untruths. This Tracie is truly sad. Because of your enormus ego you have taken nothing away from this thread and that's a real shame. Even when Dachiu offered up something that even you have never done, you still blatently refused and demanded that any testing would be done thru you. You are a proven liar time and time again. Why anyone would use your silly website is beyond me. Let's face it, you certainly werent setting the world on fire over there anyway so what makes you think that people believe that you are creditable at all anymore? To make matters worse you then slithered your way over to BD.org and again attempted to dis credit Dachiu and myself. Overall, how is that thread working out for you?

I guess this didnt turn out the way you would have liked it to, sometimes that's the way it goes. I do believe that at the end of the day a lot of people found this thread to be eye opening and chock full of usefull information, and again, that was the point of this thread. As always Tracie, we can agree to disagree but many people have seen your true colors and I doubt they are impressed by them. I want to wish you the best of luck in your persuit of curing all the dragons. Unfortunately it apears you will be alone on your quest. When you do decide to pull the blinders off, hopefully you can see thing different views.

Best of Luck to all,
Jeff

 

[Extreme Dragons]

I see no reason to close this thread. In fact I would like to ask the moderators to consider making this thread a sticky. There is more usefull information in this thread alone on this topic then any other one to date.

I second that, it definately has alot more substance then any thread I have read on adeno.



When I started this thread I completely and totally put myself out there in open view to the people on this forum. It could have quickly turned around and bit me hard, but it didnt.

I have seen it go bad and it sucks for everyone. No info ends up being shared, just name calling. I for one apprecitate you coming on here and sharing as well as Tammy, Vicki, and anyone else that has direct experience with keeping and breeding. I dont want opinions from people that havent kept dragons for a long period of time and that havent bred them on breeding issues.