I have sat by for a long time on the sidelines in these groups. I have seen the witch hunts and slanderous remarks towards certain individuals. The incorrect and misinformed rumors that have run ramped at other people expense, it saddens me and sickens me. Over what? Self proclaimed professionals and want to be doctors with ego's the size of Texas. The madness has to stop.
The people who I feel bad for are the new up and comers in this hobby. You guys are taking a simple and enjoyable hobby and turning in to a science project gone bad. I can only imagine what new people must think coming in to these groups. With AV being drilled in their heads and the slanderous remarks towards breeders that "supposedly inbreed and have puppy mill tactics, and killing animals that don't perform", it's enough to make anyone that's in the market and looking for a dragon run away and never look back. Is this what we want?
And then we have the people that take in all of the information they read on these groups and then come to us (the breeders) and ask if we test our breeders. I don't lie to people when they ask and my reply is always the same "No we don't because we don't feel it is a problem". Well ten out of ten people that have asked us that question did so because they were interested in a particular dragon we had for sale. I can honestly say that we have never lost a sale on a dragon when that question was asked. Basically, when people see something they want, they are going to get it and take their chances with AV. throwing caution to the wind and throwing everything that has been hammered into their poor heads right out the window. And all the hard work that was spent trying to conform people goes right out the window when they see a morph that they have been waiting for. And the most amazing part about it is, it doesn’t even matter who the breeder is, it could be Dachiu's, Sandfire DR, Myself, or Joe Freaking Blows Backyard Sewer Dragons, It doesn’t matter, when people see something they want, they get it!
Now, All that being said, I am personally sick and tired of seeing every single thread turning into a AV bash fest. When someone asks a question about a certain morph somehow someway the subject turns into an AV topic, it's amazing, and it never fails! Now I would like to address some of the things I feel like addressing.
"We have weakened the genetics of these dragons simply by inbreeding them for whatever particular morph that we please, & THAT is playing with nature & is not fair. It is no wonder they are susceptible to disease & virus. It is not ethical to knowingly pass on disease. If we were to observe them in the wild they most likely would have very little health problems. Sure, there are always babies born that don't make it due to some type of genetic problem, but definitely not the percentage that we are causing"
Tracie, with all due respect, I am sure that there is plenty of inbreeding going on in the wild. Just because they are wild, does that mean they will never have contact with the 20 other siblings that all hatched in the same exact spot as they did, or maybe younger or older siblings or possibly their parents that probably all live within 100 square yards of one another? Comparing domestic dragons that we breed and wild dragons in Australia is like comparing Apples and Oranges. Look at sheer size alone, wild dragons are lucky to hit 300 grams. Virtually every adult dragon in the U.S. is well over that. We must be doing something right. What percentage of genetic problems are we actually causing? I'm just curious because overall our percentage of animals that don't thrive is very low.
"I get frustrated & angry because of the breeders from the past that are still breeding now that have known positives in their colonies but refuse to do anything about it. That is why I get angry because it is not simply my opinion it is the recommendation from Dr. Jacobson as well as Dr. Wentz not to breed positives as it is unethical."
All this is, is an opinion and nothing more. The Dr's that you so frequently refer to still aren't convinced of their findings. They are merely making suggestions based on their limited experience. What are Lou Ann Miller's findings? My question is, if inadequate research hasn't been done why is the DVM making suggestions? Their opinions are simply that, their opinions with no scientific facts to support it.
What about the fact that Adeno is found in all birds, mammals, reptiles, and of course humans. Yet we don't run out and have them tested. Our children get Adenovirus yet we don't stop breeding or close our schools. If this is such an epidemic why do we only see the statements of two Dr.'s?
And what are the current stances of these Dr's? How do they feel about this situation at this point in time? We have no solid information concerning Adenovirus in Bearded Dragons so we have a self selected few who are out there promoting educated opinions not based on fact. This being the case, aren't we opening up Pandora's box for those who would gladly eliminate Bearded Dragons as a "Companion Animal"? Screaming that the
sky is falling is a great way to allow the "Devil's Advocate" to step in and and use this alleged problem to eliminate yet another species that we as Reptile Hobbyist can maintain and actually make the species thrive. We've already seen it done with Sulcata and Leopard Tortoises. Now the USF&W Service is looking harshly at Boas, Pythons, and Anacondas. Thousands if not millions of Americans have these animals and yet it could be made illegal to transport them across state lines and their importation could be halted. All because a few alarmist want them listed as "injurious species". Why should you not believe that some alarmist organization (like PETA) won't
take hold of this and run with their own campaign? It would be easy enough. All of these forum threads contain a wealth of damning information.
If you look up Agamid Adenovirus at wikpedia.com you'll see Cheri Smith quoted. Now tell me, how did this individual become such an expert on this disease when the scientist researching the subject are still in the dark concerning Adenovirus. This article presents itself as fact, not assumption and has the link to PATS at the bottom. Looking at this, what's to say another self accredited individual won't come along and make the assertion that this could have an impact on other species and promote the eradication of Bearded Dragons in the US all together?
Is this what we want? Again I'll ask, WHEN DOES IT END????
I am already trying to do so. Dr. Jacobson as well as Dr. Wentz are both reptile specialists, or so they say. Most "reptile" specialists throw their names around because they are supposed to be the leading authority on it.
Honestly, I have no idea what you are trying to say with the above statement. Are these Dr.'s not the leading authority on this subject? If this is the case then why have their words been so influential to some and only reply to a very select few? Could it be that they just have a job to do like most people and are attempting to troubleshoot something that may or may not have any effect whatsoever on the bearded dragon community or the wellness of the animals? Or is it that there are some people who are such extremist's that they have managed to scare the living crap out of people for nothing more then an ego thing.
You are right though, most vets do not think it is bad. A major reason is because they don't know anything about it or have never seen a dragon with it.
These are your words. If Dr.Jacobson won't give people the time of day and most Vet's don't think it's bad then why pursue this dead end street. You said the major reason is that they don't know anything about it. This is my point! No one does, even the Dr.s that care for the sick dragons. If this epidemic is the killer that it is perceived to be on these groups then don't you think that actual Doctors would take more of an interest in it? After all, they are Doctors and most have a practice to protect.
So there are some vets that are concerned, just not enough data from people in general & they don't see enough cases to be concerned. Vets that see alot of cases know how bad it is firsthand, but if they had never seen it firsthand they would not have the experience.
Again my point in your words, They are not concerned because Adeno does not kill dragons. I personally would love to hear from vet's that see a lot of it first hand so I can learn just how bad it is. And if it is as bad as they say then why have they all not seen it yet?
Again I will say this to you and anyone else out there who gives a crap. Adeno does not kill dragons. People kill dragons. Poor Husbandry, bad feeders, and improper diet is what kills dragons. Instead of trying to scare people about adeno why don't we begin to educate them, there are much more immediate elements that kill dragons then adeno. We need to learn about bacteria's like Klebsiella Oxytoca and Enterobacter Aerogenes that can shut down a dragons liver and kidneys within hours. There are so many more larger immediate issues to deal with and it is my opinion and I am very sure many many other people's opinion that adeno is not a killer of dragons.
This being said, it was not my intention to hurt anyone, but people need to know that there are two sides to everything. Tracie, you have done a good job at getting out and getting your word out and trying to help people make good decisions on what to look for when making a purchase. Unfortunately as you have seen you are fighting a no win, no end in sight battle. Just look at your breeders page on PATS, I have seen names come and go and not a single breeder with an adeno free colony. It can be argued for decades and I'm sure this one will be, well at least until something worse comes along. LMAO, this does remind me of the coccidia scare from years back, remember that one
Jeff and Desiree
JDM Dragons
The people who I feel bad for are the new up and comers in this hobby. You guys are taking a simple and enjoyable hobby and turning in to a science project gone bad. I can only imagine what new people must think coming in to these groups. With AV being drilled in their heads and the slanderous remarks towards breeders that "supposedly inbreed and have puppy mill tactics, and killing animals that don't perform", it's enough to make anyone that's in the market and looking for a dragon run away and never look back. Is this what we want?
And then we have the people that take in all of the information they read on these groups and then come to us (the breeders) and ask if we test our breeders. I don't lie to people when they ask and my reply is always the same "No we don't because we don't feel it is a problem". Well ten out of ten people that have asked us that question did so because they were interested in a particular dragon we had for sale. I can honestly say that we have never lost a sale on a dragon when that question was asked. Basically, when people see something they want, they are going to get it and take their chances with AV. throwing caution to the wind and throwing everything that has been hammered into their poor heads right out the window. And all the hard work that was spent trying to conform people goes right out the window when they see a morph that they have been waiting for. And the most amazing part about it is, it doesn’t even matter who the breeder is, it could be Dachiu's, Sandfire DR, Myself, or Joe Freaking Blows Backyard Sewer Dragons, It doesn’t matter, when people see something they want, they get it!
Now, All that being said, I am personally sick and tired of seeing every single thread turning into a AV bash fest. When someone asks a question about a certain morph somehow someway the subject turns into an AV topic, it's amazing, and it never fails! Now I would like to address some of the things I feel like addressing.
"We have weakened the genetics of these dragons simply by inbreeding them for whatever particular morph that we please, & THAT is playing with nature & is not fair. It is no wonder they are susceptible to disease & virus. It is not ethical to knowingly pass on disease. If we were to observe them in the wild they most likely would have very little health problems. Sure, there are always babies born that don't make it due to some type of genetic problem, but definitely not the percentage that we are causing"
Tracie, with all due respect, I am sure that there is plenty of inbreeding going on in the wild. Just because they are wild, does that mean they will never have contact with the 20 other siblings that all hatched in the same exact spot as they did, or maybe younger or older siblings or possibly their parents that probably all live within 100 square yards of one another? Comparing domestic dragons that we breed and wild dragons in Australia is like comparing Apples and Oranges. Look at sheer size alone, wild dragons are lucky to hit 300 grams. Virtually every adult dragon in the U.S. is well over that. We must be doing something right. What percentage of genetic problems are we actually causing? I'm just curious because overall our percentage of animals that don't thrive is very low.
"I get frustrated & angry because of the breeders from the past that are still breeding now that have known positives in their colonies but refuse to do anything about it. That is why I get angry because it is not simply my opinion it is the recommendation from Dr. Jacobson as well as Dr. Wentz not to breed positives as it is unethical."
All this is, is an opinion and nothing more. The Dr's that you so frequently refer to still aren't convinced of their findings. They are merely making suggestions based on their limited experience. What are Lou Ann Miller's findings? My question is, if inadequate research hasn't been done why is the DVM making suggestions? Their opinions are simply that, their opinions with no scientific facts to support it.
What about the fact that Adeno is found in all birds, mammals, reptiles, and of course humans. Yet we don't run out and have them tested. Our children get Adenovirus yet we don't stop breeding or close our schools. If this is such an epidemic why do we only see the statements of two Dr.'s?
And what are the current stances of these Dr's? How do they feel about this situation at this point in time? We have no solid information concerning Adenovirus in Bearded Dragons so we have a self selected few who are out there promoting educated opinions not based on fact. This being the case, aren't we opening up Pandora's box for those who would gladly eliminate Bearded Dragons as a "Companion Animal"? Screaming that the
sky is falling is a great way to allow the "Devil's Advocate" to step in and and use this alleged problem to eliminate yet another species that we as Reptile Hobbyist can maintain and actually make the species thrive. We've already seen it done with Sulcata and Leopard Tortoises. Now the USF&W Service is looking harshly at Boas, Pythons, and Anacondas. Thousands if not millions of Americans have these animals and yet it could be made illegal to transport them across state lines and their importation could be halted. All because a few alarmist want them listed as "injurious species". Why should you not believe that some alarmist organization (like PETA) won't
take hold of this and run with their own campaign? It would be easy enough. All of these forum threads contain a wealth of damning information.
If you look up Agamid Adenovirus at wikpedia.com you'll see Cheri Smith quoted. Now tell me, how did this individual become such an expert on this disease when the scientist researching the subject are still in the dark concerning Adenovirus. This article presents itself as fact, not assumption and has the link to PATS at the bottom. Looking at this, what's to say another self accredited individual won't come along and make the assertion that this could have an impact on other species and promote the eradication of Bearded Dragons in the US all together?
Is this what we want? Again I'll ask, WHEN DOES IT END????
I am already trying to do so. Dr. Jacobson as well as Dr. Wentz are both reptile specialists, or so they say. Most "reptile" specialists throw their names around because they are supposed to be the leading authority on it.
Honestly, I have no idea what you are trying to say with the above statement. Are these Dr.'s not the leading authority on this subject? If this is the case then why have their words been so influential to some and only reply to a very select few? Could it be that they just have a job to do like most people and are attempting to troubleshoot something that may or may not have any effect whatsoever on the bearded dragon community or the wellness of the animals? Or is it that there are some people who are such extremist's that they have managed to scare the living crap out of people for nothing more then an ego thing.
You are right though, most vets do not think it is bad. A major reason is because they don't know anything about it or have never seen a dragon with it.
These are your words. If Dr.Jacobson won't give people the time of day and most Vet's don't think it's bad then why pursue this dead end street. You said the major reason is that they don't know anything about it. This is my point! No one does, even the Dr.s that care for the sick dragons. If this epidemic is the killer that it is perceived to be on these groups then don't you think that actual Doctors would take more of an interest in it? After all, they are Doctors and most have a practice to protect.
So there are some vets that are concerned, just not enough data from people in general & they don't see enough cases to be concerned. Vets that see alot of cases know how bad it is firsthand, but if they had never seen it firsthand they would not have the experience.
Again my point in your words, They are not concerned because Adeno does not kill dragons. I personally would love to hear from vet's that see a lot of it first hand so I can learn just how bad it is. And if it is as bad as they say then why have they all not seen it yet?
Again I will say this to you and anyone else out there who gives a crap. Adeno does not kill dragons. People kill dragons. Poor Husbandry, bad feeders, and improper diet is what kills dragons. Instead of trying to scare people about adeno why don't we begin to educate them, there are much more immediate elements that kill dragons then adeno. We need to learn about bacteria's like Klebsiella Oxytoca and Enterobacter Aerogenes that can shut down a dragons liver and kidneys within hours. There are so many more larger immediate issues to deal with and it is my opinion and I am very sure many many other people's opinion that adeno is not a killer of dragons.
This being said, it was not my intention to hurt anyone, but people need to know that there are two sides to everything. Tracie, you have done a good job at getting out and getting your word out and trying to help people make good decisions on what to look for when making a purchase. Unfortunately as you have seen you are fighting a no win, no end in sight battle. Just look at your breeders page on PATS, I have seen names come and go and not a single breeder with an adeno free colony. It can be argued for decades and I'm sure this one will be, well at least until something worse comes along. LMAO, this does remind me of the coccidia scare from years back, remember that one
Jeff and Desiree
JDM Dragons
