Adeno Thoughts

[Tere Salazar]

Forgive me if im wrong guys, but i believe that she made This comment to you



Because of This comment from you.



Again, forgive me if im wrong here, but thats how it appears to me. If this was already figured out. well, on with the show

Yes, Alicia, you are exactly correct.

 

[diamc]

I have been reading these posts and if I was in the market for a new beardie, I would contact a breeder that I knew had tested for AV. I have to say that I think a consumer has the right to know one way or the other. I'm sure Tracie is contacted a lot about who does & doesn't test. She's not get anything out of it, except piece of mind about giving them the names of breeders that know their beardies are completely healthy before purchasing them. I don't agree with this statement: "every species harbors Adeno virus and it does not cause problems unless their environment and diet are sub par" because I know of some owners that have unbelievable diets and setups that are absolutely perfect and because they have tested positive for AV, they are compromised and are having medical problems because they do have AV, not because their environment or diets are sub par. Because their immune systems are compromised from the AV, there seems to always be a medical issue going on that takes longer to clear up or prevents them from exhibiting totally healthy behavior. As an example, if they have parasites, they are put on antibiotics but the antibiotics kill off their healthy bacteria, causing more problems that a beardie without AV would not have an issue with. I know of one particular beardie that is AV positive that was put on antibiotics for parasites, then her mouth & tongue became swollen & cultures showed she had 3 different infections in her mouth. Put on antibiotics for that, then she wouldn't eat. Now she is eating but her tongue remains swollen. The owner & vet have decided to not treat her as long as she is eating & not losing weight, but the mouth problem is always there, due to the AV.

Tracie is only doing what she feels is right and feels she has a responsibility to give accurate info of breeders that have tested because she cares about keeping the beardie population as healthy as possible.

 

[Bearded Wizard]

The klebsiella & enterobacter aerogenes bacteria was one thing that you mentioned. They get those bacteria because their immune system is depressed. It is found in AIDS patients, which also have low immune systems.
I know of quite a few dragons with those same bacterias, that were traced back to the chow. Klebsiella has a 50% death rate, even with medication. All of those health problems are secondary complications caused by having a suppressed immune system. Since you did not have them tested for AV, now you cannot claim that they did or did not have it. You also sold a breeder to Anthony also, who she passed away shortly after he got her & she had passed away from the same type of symptoms. He said he never had her tested either, because I did ask him.


Tracie

Tracie dont' make stuff up, the dragon that passed away from a similar bacterial infection was purchased from Sheldon who use to own Hypo Dragons and he was located in Illinois, so he had nothing to do with Jeff's dragons! Get your facts straight before you start trying to bash people with false information! I had that dragon 6 months before she passed aways so as far as I know it was due to either crickets or she had issues when I received her, you have to remember that she was 2 years old and breed for at least a year before me receiving her! You have the emails, I know you don't erase anything, so look it up! Sheldon has since left bearded dragons as far as I know...

Tracie it's just hilarious that you are trying to turn this one Jeff, you have nothing else to say and are worst than a presidential candidate in avoiding questions! Answer the questions while you still have time to dig yourself out of the hole because so far all of your work is based upon falsified information!

Plenty of people has bought or traded with Jeff with no ill effects ever, so you have no route there... I have two beautiful dragons from Jeff as well, so I can personally guarantee that the health of his dragons are top notch! You see I speak from experience when referring to a topic, I don't make stuff up as I go along and act like it's fact!

Anthony

 

[Bearded Wizard]

As for my quote from the breeder on BD.org, he had been told by lots of others to separate his dragons as his female was being overbred. Or, do you not believe in overbreeding?

Tracie

Tracie,

Have you actually breed before? I'm assuming not the way talk about breeder in such a negative fashion, so how can you give sound advice based upon what you have read in a book or heard from Joe Blow?

You really don't know how hard it really is to breed bearded dragons, you and the general public think that as soon as the male and female are introduced in the same enclosure the male mounts and impregnates the female. If it was that easy everyone would be a breeder, so don't go giving advice you know nothing about! Every breeding situation is different and general advice will not work for all situations! So before you blurt out a response with no thought, actually find out more information about that individuals situation.

Anthony

 

[pscaulkins]

OMG Tracie. So the names of the bacteria's that killed that Jeff's dragons is finally known. His dragons had to have a suppressed immune system or they would not have gotten those bacteria's. I know a positive dragon that had those same bacteria's that was cured of them. So what does that say? Did you Jeff get proper medical care for your dragons? If an adeno positive dragon can get cured, I would think a so called healthy one would have a better chance.

Shame, shame that people have to attack other people for their own agenda's.

I have to two huge healthy adeno positive dragons but at the cost of a few thousand to get to this point. Sorry guys, anyone purchasing dragons from a breeder that refuses to test is almost positive to get a positive one and I will not recommend a breeder like that.

If you don't have experience with adeno or know someone that does or did then how can you discredit Tracie? Also, in my book, if you don't test, you can't say you have healthy dragons. It's as simple as that.

 

[Beardiepal]

I only want to say one thing

I know that as soon as I came to Fauna, the 1st private message was from Tracie asking me to have my dragons tested. I made statements on the other thread that I felt had some validity but I felt that I was not informed enough to make any definite comments about AV in our beardies. I am still not and will never ever portray myself as someone who does. All I know is that my veterinarian saw no point in testing my dragons because of their obvious healthiness. I hope I am making the right decision-I feel that I am. I do believe that attempting to find out more about AV would be a good thing, but making some of us less experienced hobbyists feel that we are sentencing our own dragons to death by not having them tested, or that we are not contributing to help the AV cause and ultimately the whole beardie nation, is not the way to lead a campaign. I have already said that there are far other issues that seem to be brought up with our dragons that seem to have more substance simply because you hear about them more. I never heard about AV again until I came here. I had the posts from about a year ago from Wendy-I don't know her- and it did scare some of us. But is this and a few other AV sick dragons isolated events? Frankly, if my dragons are positive, I hope the reason they are healthy is because their immune system is so healthy it keeps it in check and in balance in their bodies-much the same way our immune systems work. What good will it do anyone to find they have healthy adeno positive dragons? Just because they are positive does not mean they will infect the beardie nation does it? I feel it means that we have a strong population of beardies who may have been in contact with this virus and their immune systems have adjusted as God gave it to them to do so, thus making the beardie population stronger. So I have said my 1 cents worth, because I don't have the knowledge of breeding like you all do. I breed and have maybe 6-8 clutches a year. Thanks all of you for allowing me to put in my 1 cent worth. Take care all Beth

 

[Bearded Wizard]

OMG Tracie. So the names of the bacteria's that killed that Jeff's dragons is finally known. His dragons had to have a suppressed immune system or they would not have gotten those bacteria's. I know a positive dragon that had those same bacteria's that was cured of them. So what does that say? Did you Jeff get proper medical care for your dragons? If an adeno positive dragon can get cured, I would think a so called healthy one would have a better chance.

Shame, shame that people have to attack other people for their own agenda's.

I have to two huge healthy adeno positive dragons but at the cost of a few thousand to get to this point. Sorry guys, anyone purchasing dragons from a breeder that refuses to test is almost positive to get a positive one and I will not recommend a breeder like that.

If you don't have experience with adeno or know someone that does or did then how can you discredit Tracie? Also, in my book, if you don't test, you can't say you have healthy dragons. It's as simple as that.

Hello Sandy,

So nice of you to join us, I'll let Jeff answer this question since it's directed at him but you and Tracie always dance around this question. So now we should believe that just because a dragon is positive it's a sickly dragon? I think you will be surprised how many healthy positive dragons are out among the population! If you truly believe that every positive dragon is ill and should not be breed wheres your proof? How can you prove that these open and honest breeders are so evil they are just breeding sickly animals with sickly offspring. Heck most of these people offer a 45 day health guarantee, how can they make any money if they sell these "extremely ill positive dragon"?

Again no one has any proof to say just because a dragon is positive or negative that it is any healthier... Just something to chew on!

Anthony

 

[pscaulkins]

Hello Sandy,

So nice of you to join us, I'll let Jeff answer this question since it's directed at him but you and Tracie always dance around this question. So now we should believe that just because a dragon is positive it's a sickly dragon? I think you will be surprised how many healthy positive dragons are out among the population! If you truly believe that every positive dragon is ill and should not be breed wheres your proof? How can you prove that these open and honest breeders are so evil they are just breeding sickly animals with sickly offspring. Heck most of these people offer a 45 day health guarantee, how can they make any money if they sell these "extremely ill positive dragon"?

Again no one has any proof to say just because a dragon is positive or negative that it is any healthier... Just something to chew on!

Anthony

Excuse me Anthony but please enlighten me as to how I dance around what questions. I have never said a positive dragon is a sick one. Heck I have two very large dragons myself. Magick would be 24" if she didn't have 4" gone off her tail and 800 grams and Semi is 17" with only 1/2 a tail and 630 grams. BOTH POSITIVES. But Anthony it has cost me thousands to get them to this stage and their lives are a bit sheltered due to strict husbandry to keep them this healthy.

All I say is a buyer has the right to know if the dragon they are purchasing is positive or negative. That is pretty simple. One of these days someone is going to sell a sick positive to someone in a state that forbids selling sick animals and get sued. I will have no pity on that breeder.

 

[Bearded Wizard]

All I say is a buyer has the right to know if the dragon they are purchasing is positive or negative. That is pretty simple. One of these days someone is going to sell a sick positive to someone in a state that forbids selling sick animals and get sued. I will have no pity on that breeder.

Sure they do have the right know if the dragon is positive or negative, but that is that telling them if you yourself just said that just because a dragon is positive doesn't mean he/she is ill?

Anthony

 

[Bearded Wizard]

What good will it do anyone to find they have healthy adeno positive dragons? Just because they are positive does not mean they will infect the beardie nation does it? I feel it means that we have a strong population of beardies who may have been in contact with this virus and their immune systems have adjusted as God gave it to them to do so, thus making the beardie population stronger. So I have said my 1 cents worth, because I don't have the knowledge of breeding like you all do. I breed and have maybe 6-8 clutches a year. Thanks all of you for allowing me to put in my 1 cent worth. Take care all Beth

Beth Well said!

Anthony

 

[pscaulkins]

Sure they do have the right know if the dragon is positive or negative, but that is that telling them if you yourself just said that just because a dragon is positive doesn't mean he/she is ill?

Anthony

Anthony, no one knows which dragon will be healthy or not but they have the right to chose. But if they knew, they could take the extra precautions to keep that dragon healthy. It's all about testing isn't it Anthony. Breeders don't want to test so let's all gang up on the people that feel if a breeder tests, they are responsible. Yes, I know the testing is not very good but it is all we have. I wouldn't expect the breeder to test 100's of times. I would think breeders would be curious to know if their breeders carried the virus and test to find out than turn their heads to it.

Adeno is like HIV. It can lay dormant for years and rear it's head like aids does in humans. Don't ya think people oughta know this. How sad it would be for a lady to purchase one of your so called healthy beardie hatchlings for her child only to have the dragon at 1-4 years old just die on them. If that parent knew adeno could do this, do you really think they would want it? NOPE because their child would be hurt.

 

[Beardiepal]

All I can say is this...if you insist on telling prospective buyers that beardies are adeno positive, then you MUST tell them about any parasite they have had, or any RI that was not identified, or any other problem- they have had, high coccidia counts in the past. Then you need to tell them what treatment was implemented to rid the dragon of the preceding issues. But maybe they test positive to the RI they had, does this mean they are worthless dragons??? Or does it mean they will never suffer like they did before because their antigen presenting memory cells, many that are B cells that produce antibodies-that have the job to ellicit cytokines that kick in the T cells that fight this previous infection recognize it now and the poor poor dragon never gets sick from this exposure again??? Perhaps we need to let life be as its suppose to be??????????? Take care all, B and thanks Anthony.

 

[Beardiepal]

Oh and I forgot the most important thing...they pass this to their offspring...B

 

[Beardiepal]

One more thing...if we want to understand this more perhaps we should get into the immunolgy and science of adenovirus. What do we have for dragons that helps them with this virus? The only drug I know of for humans is gancyclovir, foscarnet, famcyclovir, and IVIG, along with cidofovir and probenicid. How do we treat dragons for illness with adenovirus? B

 

[Beardiepal]

http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/mhensley_2006/?action=view&current=DSCN1083.jpg
It depends on the amount of exposure and subsequent innoculation with these bacter. Not that they were exposed, it depends on how much they were exposed to...just like any other bacteria or virus such as AV.

 

[Beardiepal]

Sorry guys do not check out the photobucket

Have 2 or 3 conversations going now...I was commenting to the bacterial infections...it depends on the colony counts, the exposure to and how much it was exposed to before you say that a dragon or any other subject had an inferior immune system. B

 

[pscaulkins]

Adeno positive dragons are not worthless, they just should not be bred. Why spread a disease when it could be stopped.

Just out of curiosity do you know the different things adeno affects Beardiepal? Well here is a short list that I HAVE experienced:

It can block their absorption of needed calcium. I have experienced major MBD even though my dragon had the highest quality MVB on the market. The best powdered rep cal calcium on all her feeders. Today, she is maintained on liquid calcium and will be the rest of her life.

Aspergillus, which my vet didn't think he could kill it so I went out on a limb and found something that worked.

Pinworms and coccidia (my male)

Bacterial infections from infected silkworms that didn't appear to be sick but carried bad bacteria. My vet said it only takes one bacteria to infect my male. He had two infections, the other from hornworms.

Comprised immune systems caused by adenovirus. Mine are healthy only because I know what to look for and I do routine fecals myself. Do you really think people want to have to monitor their dragons so closely to keep them healthy. I don't run to the vet with fecals and treat for high coccidia. To much meds actually lowers an immune suppressed dragons immunity to even lower. Mine live in a very clean environment.

I was told once by a big breeder that you have to look outside the box for care for adeno positive dragons. An inexperienced person wouldn't know where to begin. It's not fair to them.

 

[pscaulkins]

One more thing...if we want to understand this more perhaps we should get into the immunolgy and science of adenovirus. What do we have for dragons that helps them with this virus? The only drug I know of for humans is gancyclovir, foscarnet, famcyclovir, and IVIG, along with cidofovir and probenicid. How do we treat dragons for illness with adenovirus? B

When I first tested mine, I had a vet recommend this antiviral med. I tried it for a while but the side effects were not good. It causes lack of appetite and my dragons stopped eating. So I stopped the med. I don't have it anymore and I think it was called Virolite but not sure.

 

[Beardiepal]

So here is what I am saying

I was told once by a big breeder that you have to look outside the box for care for adeno positive dragons. An inexperienced person wouldn't know where to begin. It's not fair to them.

I have not figured out how to quote you but this is indeed what you said....back it up...what do the inexperienced need to know?,,,thats the whole ideal going down now ps caulkins and Tracie and everyone else...you have not illicited to us the bottomline of what we should know because you do not know yourselves. Give me the Bottomline, backed up with research, and I will be so very glad to comply. Do not make me feel like I am killing the beardie nation. I am a hobbyist, I love my beardies as I love my dogs. I am not the topscale breeder-they have some of the same inclinations as myself..I am sure they have those they really love & care about, their prize dragons. Why would you say that breeders are any diffrent than myself?
And what drug did they give your dragon? This is elementary knowledge that we need to know. If you cannot even remember-how is your memory going to help the AV cause? respectfully, B

 

[Beardiepal]

Oh and by the way I did my thesis on Aspergillus in kids with cancer...how is this different? tell me how we can make the research happen. Aspergillus is everywhere....humans harbor it...it is a dormant thing residing in many species...fungal infections are like viral infections in humans...just a handful of meds...many humans die...B