Adeno Thoughts

[pscaulkins]

Beardiepal, it's late and I have been up since 4 am. The drug is Virolite and it a herbal used on dogs and cats but my vet thought it was worth a try. It did not help my two and I cannot recommend it to others.

One of the leading breeders told me to look outside the box. It means not every dragon can thrive on normal husbandry so you do what makes your dragon thrive. Mine require a bit more sleep to be active in the daytime so they go to bed earlier than what people recommend. It works for them. There is certain feeders I will not feed mine due to health risks. Their homes are kept totally clean to keep them from getting sick.

I am not saying you are killing the beardie population, it goes back way further than you. All I am saying is the buyer should be aware of what they are getting. Had I known, I wouldn't have gotten my two. Their breeders didn't even know they had it. I only tested because I had the issue with my female. Testing let me know what I was dealing with, and that it wasn't my fault or the breeders fault for what happened to my female. It also made me aware that I can't just feed them any feeders, I had to be picky or it cause them suffering and me money. No one wants to make their dragons sick.

I don't have research, I only have experience with what I have dealt with. I have had many vets tell me many things. To put them to sleep because they will suffer, to adeno is no big thing because most dragons have it because the breeders back in the day didn't stop breeding positives and that most dragons are inbred, to we can do hospice on them. The one thing all the vets said was that my dragons have suppressed immune systems from adeno. This is what they believe to be true. This is also what I believe.

I would love to see more research on this. I have read everything there is out there on adeno trying to learn as much as I can. There isn't much out there.

 

[JeffnDes]

OMG Tracie. So the names of the bacteria's that killed that Jeff's dragons is finally known. His dragons had to have a suppressed immune system or they would not have gotten those bacteria's. I know a positive dragon that had those same bacteria's that was cured of them. So what does that say? Did you Jeff get proper medical care for your dragons? If an adeno positive dragon can get cured, I would think a so called healthy one would have a better chance.

Shame, shame that people have to attack other people for their own agenda's. .

LMFAO, I'm sorry Sandy, I did not know that I owed you or anyone else the names of the bacteria that killed my dragons. In fact I found it rather rude for you to contact me in email routing around looking for me to explain my situation to you. And I would expect nothing less then your next comment. My dragons had to have had suppressed immune systems or they would not have gotten those bacterias? So basically what you are saying is it wouldnt matter how many infected horn worms these gravid dragons were fed, if their immune systems were normal they would still be alive? That is very interesting. So it really doesnt matter how much of this bacteria has entered their system, a dragon with a flawless imune system could have over come this? I also had dragons that ate considerably less worms (that were not gravid) that were effected as well but did overcome this and are back to normal. What does that say? To me it simply says that they were exposed to a much lower amount then my gravid girls were. But what do I know? You obviously know much more then my Vet did, why didnt he think of that? FWIW, What is my agenda? You obviously know a lot about me so I would enjoy reading what my agenda would be.

I have to two huge healthy adeno positive dragons but at the cost of a few thousand to get to this point. Sorry guys, anyone purchasing dragons from a breeder that refuses to test is almost positive to get a positive one and I will not recommend a breeder like that.

If you don't have experience with adeno or know someone that does or did then how can you discredit Tracie? Also, in my book, if you don't test, you can't say you have healthy dragons. It's as simple as that.

Again Sandy, So because I refuse to test, anyone who purchases a dragon from us is pretty much guaranteed to get a dragon that is adeno positive? Why do you guys keep on running in circles? People need to take responsibility and stop blaming AV on deaths that could more then likely be traced back to improper husbandry. Tere, again that was not directed at you either.

I can discredit Tracie because she still has no facts to support her argument. Show me proof not suggestions. And updated information would be great too, as long as there is evidence to support their suggestions. We can agree to disagree until the cows come home but until there is proof and hard facts to support yours and her argument you will not change my opinion.

Sometimes things just happen that we may not understand. I still feel that week baby dragons that hatch out in the wild will not survive, but in captivity these babies that would not survive in the wild can survive in captivity. Should we keep them alive, it's a personal decision. They are not exposed to the elements their wild counterparts are. Should those dragons ever be bred? Probably not and it's sad to see a baby not thrive, it really is heartbraking but, do we stop breeding because we had one dragon not thrive out of 10 clutches of strong healthy dragon. My point is that we don't have to understand everything. Why did my best friend pass away to leukemia at 28 years old? I don't know the answer. Things happen that we have no acceptable answers for. There are terrible things that kill humans, do we stop moving forward, do we close down business's and schools, do we stop reproducing? There are far worse diseases that kill us yet we keep moving forward, maybe we will find answers in our lifetime and maybe we won't. We as breeders are responsible people. We do not breed the week. We breed the strong and pass the strong genes down to future generations. As you know we have a somewhat limited gene pool here and we make due with what we have. And we do a good job. People like Rob and Vickie Dachiu are invaluable yet they are gone from the groups now too. And why? Because people that don't know them make ridiculous statements and make assumptions about their ethics? Instead of learning from truly ethical and responsible people, you guys bashed them, and who looses? You guy's loose. They did actual research and tests on adeno positive dragons. They have actual findings of their own, no one here will know what their findings are because they no longer come here, and who could blame them. Weather you want to admit it or not, there are some fantastic breeders out there that have a wealth of information but because they have different opinions then you and Tracie, they have to go. Just because you are not kept in the loop with other findings does not mean there is nothing being done.

That being said, we can agree to disagree but.If the information provided was delivered in an appropriate way people may feel different. Especially if there were actual real findings.

Jeff

 

[Bearded Wizard]

I would love to see more research on this. I have read everything there is out there on adeno trying to learn as much as I can. There isn't much out there.

How can we give a recommendation either way if there is no scientific backing? Without scientific backing their is no argument, the next set of recommendations come down to experience and I'm sorry to say Sandy you lack tons of it not with positive dragons but with dragons in general! You don't live the bearded dragon life style, you don't raise up babies and watch their behaviors and you don't see the subtle things that make each baby different and unique. The fact that you have only owned 2 dragon that are adeno positive means nothing to me since according to Tracie all of us have adeno positive dragons and guess what no of us have any problems! How often to you tweek you husbandry to try and push the envelop of progression? I know people like the Dachiu's change some of their set-ups weekly or monthly to try and find a better ways! Now this is the only true progression I've seen in this industry as they spend 1000's of dollars out of their pockets to improve their husbandry and thus the health of the animals!(Which have the most robust babies I've ever seen!) You will not believe how many people try to copy Rob and Vickie's enclosure set-ups because they are that good! When you have several years of experience you kind of understand what I'm talking about, but when you have over a decade of experience like Rob/Vickie you see little things that the rest of us missed!

So you see Sandy as far as we know your 2 dragons had other issues besides adeno, and who's to say your husbandry is perfect? If you have been following a book or word of advice from an individual that hasn't talked to a breeder recently chances are you husbandry practices are 5-7 years old and not as good as it could be! Thus is the little things that can add up in husbandry that can comprise the health of your dragons! I'm sorry to say that your two dragons maybe be part of a select few that have the same exact sets problems as the other hand full of people with adeno that had sick dragons. But because you don't have any other dragons to compare yours to (control) your information does us no good!

The funny part is most of you think you know your stuff when it comes to dragons and adeno and other crap, but the truth is unless you've been breeding or dealing with a larger number of dragons for more than several years you have no clue! Heck I'm still picking up little things here and their from people like the Dachiu's yet people like Sandy and Tracie love to stomp all over these "Pioneers" in our industry! They continue to develop new husbandry practices that help babies shed easier, and yet all you guys want to do is shoot them in the foot because they are "a large breeder". So don't knock anyone you haven't meet in person as you would be shocked to see how impressive the Dachiu's facility actually is!(And yes it's so clean you can eat off the floor!)

Really get your act together and open your eyes that thinking inside the box only breeds stupidity! You and Tracie have yet to answer any of the questions from the first 5 pages of this tread, and thus you keep reiterating the same stuff over and over again. Thus you case is very weak based upon what I've seen, you don't have proof to back up a theory then don't bring it up! Unless you bring something new to the table the experience of a breeder far surpasses your understanding!

Anthony

Anthony

 

[draggintails]

I would contact universities in AU and speak to the reptile vets and vet pathologists to get a better idea of what is going on over there .....that is the source and the proper place to start. They are seeing everything some people are seeing here.......so animals brought in , when brought in are infested with pinworms, coccidia and other parasites and are positive for adenovirus when tested. They are losing dragons, eggs,clutches, juvies ..having problems with MBD, bad sheds, really bad problems with pin worms and coccidia in the Sydney area, dragons not recovering after laying, dystocia, eye infections, bloated abdomens on babies, disorientation on babies, babies not absorbing sacs, lack of thrives, etc.....per the breeders who have contacted me for advice and information from the vets I have spoken with on the phone and in written correspondence. I asked if they test for AV...they say they don't know what it is (breeders that contacted me) and how hard it is to get it done and they don't have it anyway (yeah uh huh) ..I have found a place for them now to test when I am contacted again and am giving the lab to the vets I speak with in AU that do not have a contact for EM AV detection.

Funny thing is when they tell me how they care for their dragons (the breedrs looking for help)..it is not good. I was completely shocked..I thought they had a better chance at field study than we do here in the US (ha), wow these people can do a better job simulating their environment than we can. The way they care for their dragons would kill mine. When I corrected the care information I got back arguments on how the main and most knowledgeable breeder in their area (I won't mention his name) has made this the norm for keeping dragons. They have AV and they are breeding the dragons, the dragons in the wild population have AV.

Lou Ann Miller said "we should be looking for Parvo and Dependo instead, these are much more nasty viruses that I have seen on a few samples" she said that she has tested 80% positive at this time on all adeno samplings but have seen only a few dependo, calici, and parvo...I wonder what that tells me. UofF only looks for ATA so no information on other virus dragon is harboring can come from the PCR. Now don't go shooting the messenger,not trying to raise nationwide panic with her statement but it is more information to consider. I will talk with Dr. J or Dr. Stacey and see if they think on the same lines and see if we can get a published statement. We had a conference last year in LA on dragon adeno by Dr. Wellahan I bet we could get another at this years conference maybe next years.

 

[Valley Dragons]

Adeno positive dragons are not worthless, they just should not be bred. Why spread a disease when it could be stopped.

Just out of curiosity do you know the different things adeno affects Beardiepal? Well here is a short list that I HAVE experienced:

It can block their absorption of needed calcium. I have experienced major MBD even though my dragon had the highest quality MVB on the market. The best powdered rep cal calcium on all her feeders. Today, she is maintained on liquid calcium and will be the rest of her life.

Aspergillus, which my vet didn't think he could kill it so I went out on a limb and found something that worked.

Pinworms and coccidia (my male)

Bacterial infections from infected silkworms that didn't appear to be sick but carried bad bacteria. My vet said it only takes one bacteria to infect my male. He had two infections, the other from hornworms.

Comprised immune systems caused by adenovirus. Mine are healthy only because I know what to look for and I do routine fecals myself. Do you really think people want to have to monitor their dragons so closely to keep them healthy. I don't run to the vet with fecals and treat for high coccidia. To much meds actually lowers an immune suppressed dragons immunity to even lower. Mine live in a very clean environment.

I was told once by a big breeder that you have to look outside the box for care for adeno positive dragons. An inexperienced person wouldn't know where to begin. It's not fair to them.

Your issues are blantantly husbandry-related. If you had more dragon experience, you would know this. For example...I've been telling people not to use the stupid MVB's for months. Why? Because of all of the babies that I have sold, the only ones that have ever have problems with MBD symptoms are the ones kept under MVB's. I've sold two babies this past year that left my care in perfect condition. I advised the new owner's on proper dragon husbandry. They ignored me and used a MVB anyway. I even had one person use a MVB AND a UVB tube light. The poor babies started developing MBD symptoms within a few weeks. One was even put down, which I disagreed with, but it was not my decision. He was healthy as a horse, eating, etc..but his poor body was being contorted by the improper calcium absorption. I've kept in contact with the owner's of these baby's siblings, and I have kept several myself. They are all fine...but they are being raised with proper husbandry. Many people push the use of MVB's without any understanding of how these bulbs work, the risks, how to use them, or the dietary and set-up changes that are neccesary if you are going to use them. Nobody stops to consider what too much UVB mixed with too many D3 supplements will do to a dragon. Too MUCH will cause the same symptoms as too LITTLE. But...you would know that if you had more experience. As a breeder, I try to "dumb down" the husbandry as much as possible, make it simple to understand. I wish people would just do what I tell them to do and quit following the advise of people with little to no experience. I guess my point is that things go wrong, and it is rarely because there is something wrong with your dragon. It is because you do the wrong things in caring for your dragon. I hope this makes sense...it's still early here, lol.

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

Sorry, the infected silkworms issue was not your fault. But let's look at it this way. I assume you are a healthy person. But what do you think will happen if you eat bad food that has been tainted with bacteria? Do you think you will avoid food poisoning just because you are a healthy person? Of course not, that is ridiculous! You will be sick as a dog and proabably require medical intervention to help you recover. Your dragon is no different!

Jamie

 

[pscaulkins]

The issues I had with my dragons were not husbandry related. OMG, that is the biggest crock I have heard yet. No on this forum can say my husbandry caused any issues. NO ONE because you have not been to my house but I would invite you all to come see my dragons as I have nothing to hide. But I am not going to get mad, I just consider the source who said it.

Jeff, the reason I emailed you was to find out if you had the hornworms cultured. I know about bacteria's in silkies and hornworms, I used to raise and sell silkies. One of my vets cultured a few silkies years ago because he knew they could carry the bad stuff and not appear sick. I quit selling silkies when I learned they can carry the bad bacteria. You didn't respond back so I figured you had no real knowledge about bacteria's. Dragons also has symptoms before they get sick. Did you recognize them?

Enough said. You ask for research but when it came out last year you all ignored it. I am done with this discussion as it is going nowhere.....But should be a good read for newbies in the market for a new dragon.

 

[Valley Dragons]

The issues I had with my dragons were not husbandry related. OMG, that is the biggest crock I have heard yet. No on this forum can say my husbandry caused any issues. NO ONE because you have not been to my house but I would invite you all to come see my dragons as I have nothing to hide. But I am not going to get mad, I just consider the source who said it.

Sandy, where did you get your information regarding what you consider proper care for a bearded dragon? Forums? Web searches? An "experienced" breeder? I'm just curious. A lot of people learn from other newbies and by doing internet research. I am not condemning you for doing this - it is how I first learned. The problem with doing that is that you will get tons of bad advice and false information. I've spent the last few years in the "trenches", so to speak, regarding beardie breeding and care. I've had to learn a whole new way of doing things, as I've found that so much of the things that I read about caring for beardies is just flat out wrong, or something that could be done better. I am not trying to be mean by stating that many of your problems are husbandry related. It is just that I get tired of hearing newbies blame everything that goes wrong on adenovirus - when I, and other people, know that these issues can be caused by improper husbandry.

Jamie

 

[pscaulkins]

Jamie, my vet told me my husbandry was perfect. It's rare for them to see a dragon with the correct setups. I learned from someone that has had reptiles for many, many years. If it weren't for this person and one other person, one of mine would not be here today. I may have only had dragons for 3 years but I am older and I researched and talked to many people and didn't take one person's word for it. Plus, do you think if my husbandry was off that I would have such large healthy looking dragons now or that my female would have survived. I know another person that has a positive that doesn't metabolize her powdered supplements either. How can two dragons with the same issues and have two different husbandry practices be caused by poor husbandry? And be on each side of the US.

Jamie, one thing that I totally agree with Vicki D is that with positive dragons you have to look outside the normal spectrum of care. Her exact words to me were " look outside the box". Mine are thriving in my care. It's as simple as that. But I also know they can get sick easy so I take all the precautions I can and hope for the best.

 

[mikey]

CheriS has been fighting a losing battle for awhile now & she gave up for the most part.

Tracie

Why do YOU think she gave up and went away..Because maybe she was WRONG on Adenovirus !!! She spewed her venom for her own ego and self seving QUEEN OF THE BEARDIE WORLD STATUS..If you were around many years ago, it started with UVB, Coccida, Yellow Fungus and Sand, she finally got booted off Kingsnake, If I remember correctly, forums for fighting over the use of SAND. Then she become the self appointed queen of "yellow fungus" due to her misinformation and advice on AB use. Then she moved on to to become the AV expert. You are now becoming her and it is very disturbing to many of us. Don't get me wrong, she helped many people with the basics, but it went to her head and she attacked many, many breeders that did not agree with her QueenNess status. Many see YOU becoming HER and it is not gonna fly.

You spoke of Denise having all negative results from U of F recently on the phone, they were on your desk...when I told you I do know that is not true, you back peddled and said you "might have been lied to" and would call Dr. J to verify.

Denise is not testing this year. At the time we spoke on the phone, out of respect for her since we had emailed several times & she said she would email me or mail me the results, I honestly thought that she would. She has been beat up enough here so giving her the benefit of the doubt is what I had intended to do until she proved me wrong. I fully expected to receive those results. So oh well. I honestly don't know if she ever tested. Maybe we will never know unless she ever comes out with it. I tried & gave her a way out. It did not work out. There is nothing I can do about it. No one can say that I didn't try. Besides, she never said that her tests were conducted at the U. of Florida anyway. Where did you ever get that from?
Tracie

"And lastly, as of this morning, we are also going to pursue this as a legal matter and will be acting on the advice of our attorney."
Denise Latanzi Calidragons.com

So, We on that thread were threatened with legal action and and now to find out that you, Tracie, lied to cover up for her. I was so mad yesterday when I read that, I took a day to calm down before I posted. I supported you, in the beginning, starting a AV "Society" but when you are caught lying to cover for a so called "friend" that trust is gone. In my eyes and many, many others your credibility is GONE, no matter what you do or say now.

I have asked for participation from larger breeders so we can get more data. All I get is stabbed for requesting that people test. I will ask again. Why is everyone so scared of learning the truth & finding out more information on their colonies?
Tracie

Shall I post some comments made lately by yourself and others concerning these " larger breeders". And YOU really honestly wonder why THEY don't support you.

"I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" Lou Ann Miller

Lou Ann has had a rare handful of submissions lately no one is testing with her, she is not even working on AV now, Florida is having little to no submissions.

Lastly, What are you pandering for new "clients" for your Society when Lou Ann is directly discouraging testing?

I know that as soon as I came to Fauna, the 1st private message was from Tracie asking me to have my dragons tested.

To all breeders and hobbyist, large and small, it is now time to come out from the shadows and speak your voice on Adenovirus before one ego driven woman with a Secret Society harboring hidden clients destroys everything many dedicated hobbyist and breeders around the world have been dedicated to for decades. SPEAK OUT !!!!

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello All,

Still arguing about the same things as you did years ago. This is good, we need research. So, all I can say is to test. Just because I PM someone to ask if they are testing or would be interested in testing is not bad. I think new breeders need to be aware of problems that can arise.
Yes the parvo & dependo are widely found as well. Several of the tests that I have they had all 3. So they are dependent on the AV that is why. Lou Ann never discouraged testing, she is fully supportive of testing. It is a wide problem & we need to look at all of the issues.
I see how everyone is. I don't agree with everyone else on issues so I get beat up. That's alright, it doesn't matter.
I am not charging anything at all for my society. It is supposed to be trying to help get information, etc.
I will simply help people who want to be helped, which most definitely are not you people. You ridicule people who come on here with positive dragons saying their husbandry is bad, but lie when you say that they are alone in having any problems?
If you did have problems with yours, you definitely would not be admitting it to anyone. I do have a couple of saved emails from Jeff who is denying any problems as well as Anthony. I do keep documentation.
At least maybe some new breeders will look more carefully into this issue & can do some research to decide if they feel it important enough to do testing.


Tracie

 

[jenkznza]

Why in the world would anyone accept advice concerning Bearded Dragons from someone who lacks expertise? When it comes to Bearded Dragons I’m going to seek the advice of a professional breeder that’s been in the business for years not someone who doesn’t even maintain the species. To me that just makes sense.

The professional breeders have dealt with this issue and found that Adenovirus is not a problem. They’ve done the footwork, they’ve talked with the researches, they’ve verified the information and misinformation that has been put out over the internet and disputed its validity. Yet people are blindly following Tracie (Drache613) and her supporters, accepting what they state as fact. That doesn’t make sense to me!

Tracie and her supporters have stated on several occasions that breeders won’t conform to their pleas for testing, because it will reflect on them monetarily. That’s simply not true! I know many topnotch breeders who feel that Adenovirus is not a concern and will not test. These people all live for what they do. They breed incredible Bearded Dragons and tend for them with great care. They would be the first group to collectively attack a perceived problem, drawing upon every resource at their disposal to rectify the situation. After all, their livelihood would be at stake not to mention the animals they maintain. Yet when the professional breeders determine that Adenovirus is not the plague it has been professed to be, they are ostracized for not conforming to the wishes of the neophytes of the reptile world. Sounds a bit backwards doesn’t it.

As far as PATS (THE POGONA ADENOVIRUS TESTING SOCIETY) is concerned, I can’t take this organization seriously.

1) I can find no filing of a nonprofit status for this organization. If this was a legitimate organization it would have filed for its 501C3 status with the Federal Government.
2) Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I can tell Tracie is not an accredited individual. If I’m going to deal with an organization its leaders are going to be educated in their field of research. Tracie has not displayed any credentials that I’m aware of.
3) Tracie claims to be collecting test results for research purposes yet refuses to release any statistics. If her research is to benefit the Bearded Dragon Community these statistics must be released. They don’t have to contain the names of breeders, but for sake of argument they should be verified by an independent party.
4) The goal of research is to better understand/cure the disease being studied. That said this organization should have the capacity to perform physical research on Bearded Dragons. From what I have read PATS does not.
5) In post #10 of this thread Tracie admits to giving out test results to Tammy Aldrich over the phone without their possession. If nonexistent results have already been given out what’s to say more won’t be fabricated?

It is my opinion that PATS serves no viable purpose other than to fulfill its leader’s need for self gratification. It and its leader should be shunned by all those who breed/maintain Bearded Dragons.

Now I know someone is bound to ask who I think I am. I’m a breeder. I maintain a fairly large colony of Bearded Dragons with established blood lines from several other quality breeders. I work with my colony fulltime i.e. I do this for a living. No I do not test for Adenovirus in my Bearded Dragons nor have I tested for it in my child, dog, goldfish, or the neighborhood cat. Why would I waste my efforts on testing animals for a virus that is common to virtually every species on the planet. It makes absolutely no sense!

 

[JeffnDes]

Tracie,
The problems I had are already in this thread. I never denied having them. You know what caused them and it was no fault of mine. You keep throwing digs at me as if I am trying to hide something or not telling the whole truth....... I to have the emails I sent to you as well as the ones you sent me By all means post them up! I have nothing to hide........ If you have anything on me besides the bacterial issues from horn worms then by all means, Post it! There is nothing in those emails that is not in this thread.
I'm calling you out Tracie! If you have something on me then the floor is all yours. If not then stop throwing your little digs in to give the perception that you do.

 

[draggintails]

"Lou Ann never discouraged testing, she is fully supportive of testing." Tracie

"I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" Lou Anne Miller 5-8-08


Yes the parvo & dependo are widely found as well. Tracie


no, they are not widely found, they were found on only a "few" submission samples done at IL. I did not see these viruses on any of my samples and the other test results that were shared with me did not have them on there either.

 

[JeffnDes]

"Lou Ann never discouraged testing, she is fully supportive of testing." Tracie

"I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" Lou Anne Miller 5-8-08

Tammy, In your experience, what exactly is Lou Anne saying here? Can you please elaborate for the people that may not understand this statement. The way I read that is that because it is so endemic that Lou Anne is discouraging people from testing?

Yes the parvo & dependo are widely found as well. Tracie


no, they are not widely found, they were found on only a "few" submission samples done at IL. I did not see these viruses on any of my samples and the other test results that were shared with me did not have them on there either.

I don't know, it looks like someone is an alarmist. Will parvo & dependo be replacing AV soon as the new hot topic?

 

[draggintails]

Jeff,

she is not encouraging people to test for av because it is in most of the population

If you are married just have your wife read it to you and explain it.

 

[Bearded Wizard]

Proof?

Anthony

 

[Bearded Wizard]

If you did have problems with yours, you definitely would not be admitting it to anyone. I do have a couple of saved emails from Jeff who is denying any problems as well as Anthony. I do keep documentation.
At least maybe some new breeders will look more carefully into this issue & can do some research to decide if they feel it important enough to do testing.


Tracie

Again proof? Because I know I'm clean, and theres no information you can bring forward that will prove otherwise!

Anthony

 

[Bearded Wizard]

"I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" Lou Anne Miller 5-8-08

Wow really, thanks for pointing that out Tammy, I'm sure plenty of the new comers to the bearded dragon hobby would love to hear that from a qualitied University researcher!

And the dictionary definition for those of you that might not understand it is:

adjective Also, en·dem·i·cal.
1. natural to or characteristic of a specific people or place; native; indigenous: endemic folkways; countries where high unemployment is endemic.
2. belonging exclusively or confined to a particular place: a fever endemic to the tropics.
–noun
3. an endemic disease.

Basically not a problem...

Anthony

 

[pscaulkins]

Tracie,
The problems I had are already in this thread. I never denied having them. You know what caused them and it was no fault of mine. You keep throwing digs at me as if I am trying to hide something or not telling the whole truth....... I to have the emails I sent to you as well as the ones you sent me By all means post them up! I have nothing to hide........ If you have anything on me besides the bacterial issues from horn worms then by all means, Post it! There is nothing in those emails that is not in this thread.
I'm calling you out Tracie! If you have something on me then the floor is all yours. If not then stop throwing your little digs in to give the perception that you do.

Jeff, could you answer a few questions not related to adeno?

You had breeders die from bad bacteria that you say came from hornworms. Being a breeder, don't you think sharing what you did to save them might help someone else. What meds that apparently didn't work? How you found out the kind of bacteria that killed them? How you found out it was the hornworms that contaminated them and not something in your husbandry? Necropsy or lab work? Since everyone thinks that breeders has the best knowledge, would you mind sharing it? I truly am interested in how, what meds didn't work? What symptoms you seen? All this would and could help someone else. This is why I emailed you. I am honestly asking you this not to attack you or make you prove anything. I have experience with bacteria and if I can learn more I will. I am also truly sorry you lost your bearded dragons and I know I said this in the email.

Another poster asked about meds that could help an adeno dragon and I gave her what I tried and didn't work. I am not a breeder but I do have experience in some things beardie related that breeders don't have a clue in.

Instead of attacking and discrediting people, why not see what they have to say and weigh it with what you know.