Adeno Thoughts

[Beardiepal]

Ok

It is time to share knowledge but as I recall this post was about AV and no one has educated anyone on the topic at all. I have pms into people I feel are willing to share their research links, etc. with me. Not the arguments, not the bullshit, but the actual findings they have found. This is why this AV crusade never took off. Where did anyone share things of value about AV with me? Are their links from PATS that people can read and peruse? Is it all a secret where no one has anything valid to offer those of us that would love to read & understand whats going on. I admire you all for your breeding expertise. I hope you will be there when I need you. I really have not seen anyone on this test your dragon campaign show me legitimate reasons/research to do so. So perhaps this is where the animosity begins and ends...if you want any advances then share your articles and your knowledge. All I have seen is bullying & bashing and frankly I think at this point I have to look at breeders and my vet to tell me what I should do. Tracie and Sandy- is that so damn surprising?

And I have to say that Jeff's bacterial issues are for him to disclose and obviuosly in another thread as a new topic. If he wants to share that would be grand. I agree, but you are asking him for what you never showed anyone presently about AV.
We are here to share knowledge. Thats what I thought. But I have not seen any of that.There has been nothing concrete to back up your views. Lou Ann's staement to me tells it all. Or do you have something else?
Respectfully to you all, and I have a clutch hatching next week and 20 days later and 20 days later and then the last 20 days later. I will let you know if they survived and thrived !!! Beth

 

[JeffnDes]

I couldnt agree more, this thread is about adeno not bacterial issues. That being said maybe I would post something up with symptoms in a different thread at another time.

Well there are a bunch of questions still left unanswered.

jenkznza, Excellent points and very informative post, Thanks!

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello,

By the way, Tammy, fyi, I never said that I had Denise's "official" test results. What I said was that I had an "email" from Denise where Denise wrote down the results of her dragons. She told me that the official vet results would be mailed out to me. I never received them. So I did have "unofficial" test results from HER & not her VET that I had printed out. Get your facts straight.

Also, Tammy, fyi, I NEVER said that Denise got her PCR tests run at the U. of Florida, EVER. If you will read over all of her posts again, she NEVER ever claimed to have used the U. of Florida.




Tracie

 

[whiskersmom]

"Lou Ann never discouraged testing, she is fully supportive of testing." Tracie

"I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" Lou Anne Miller 5-8-08


Yes the parvo & dependo are widely found as well. Tracie


no, they are not widely found, they were found on only a "few" submission samples done at IL. I did not see these viruses on any of my samples and the other test results that were shared with me did not have them on there either.

Tammy,
Could you please tell us when and to who LouAnn said this to? I would be very interested in what she has seen in her research.
Thank you

Sherri

 

[mikey]

By the way, Tammy, fyi, I never said that I had Denise's "official" test results. What I said was that I had an "email" from Denise where Denise wrote down the results of her dragons. She told me that the official vet results would be mailed out to me. I never received them. So I did have "unofficial" test results from HER & not her VET that I had printed out. Get your facts straight.

Also, Tammy, fyi, I NEVER said that Denise got her PCR tests run at the U. of Florida, EVER. If you will read over all of her posts again, she NEVER ever claimed to have used the U. of Florida.

Tracie

Denise is not testing this year. At the time we spoke on the phone, out of respect for her since we had emailed several times & she said she would email me or mail me the results, I honestly thought that she would. She has been beat up enough here so giving her the benefit of the doubt is what I had intended to do until she proved me wrong. I fully expected to receive those results. So oh well. I honestly don't know if she ever tested. Maybe we will never know unless she ever comes out with it. I tried & gave her a way out. It did not work out. There is nothing I can do about it. No one can say that I didn't try. Besides, she never said that her tests were conducted at the U. of Florida anyway. Where did you ever get that from? I wanted to protect her privacy, & she may have tested. If you all harrassed her vet like she claimed, then, personally I don't blame her for not releasing them to me or to anyone else. You all have a way of mobbing people. Tracie

Tracie, Please take the time to read EXACTLY what you said.."SHE SAID SHE WOULD EMAIL OR MAIL ME THE RESULTS, I HONESTLY THOUGHT SHE WOULD"

"I FULLY EXPECTED TO RECEIVE THOSE RESULTS. SO OH WELL"

" I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW IF SHE EVER TESTED"

 

[draggintails]

Tracie,

You freaking, unbelievable, absolute, insane LIAR!! Back peddle really hard now! You are ill and you need help..truly. Don't you dare come on this forum and lie straight to my face again!! You most certainly did tell me U of FL.....you told me three times because I repeated myself again and again and said the paper was sitting on your desk and then I asked you to call Dr. J to verifiy you said you would and how it was possible you could have been misled. You told me you would try to call him in the next few days (after our phone call) to verify Denise's results. You even spoke how they could have been not real.

I would never make something up like this to try to discredit you, you do a much better job of that than I ever could. Nor do I want to discredit you.
I think when it comes to who would believe whom..I have shown nothing but facts and papers to back up everything I say..this phone conversation was not taped. Funny it took you several days to come back and say this...when in your first response to this you did not deny this but made an excuse why you lied about the results.

Even this morning Denise is on your site as being negative and you admitted you never saw these reports a few days ago....so very professional and scientific.


When I said U of F was pulling mainly positives..I asked for them to write a paper and posted that up

When I said Lou Ann is pulling mostly positives..that was backed up as well

when I said AU is finding positives...I posted that up and offered telephone #'s to the vets for verification

When I said there is no Elisa test and you said there was..I posted that information up for verification

When blood PCR was said to be used a test, I posted up information that that was not a testing method ever used and still has not been used to this day despite the claims...that was posted for verification from two different labs

You see I have a track record here of researching on my own and providing information that I find and bringing it to the boards. Seems to me I have done more research and made more calls and provided more information that is verifiable and correct than anyone. Because I want the TRUTH about this virus and I want to get to the bottom that is available now.

No, don't go there and call me a liar....it will NOT fly. You committed a crime, you falsified medical information from a society that is designed to hold statistics, data, and testing results. I can at least verify that part as it is in writing in an earlier post here..what I can't prove is that you told me they were from U of F, but I given the lie you admitted to and your past record everyone believes it.




Sherri,

If you are "interested" pick up the phone and make a call ....find out who she said it to, what day, what time,verify the source, and then verify the information. It is always best to get information in writing, but sometimes you have to use the phone.

 

[mikey]

By the way, Tammy, fyi, I never said that I had Denise's "official" test results. What I said was that I had an "email" from Denise where Denise wrote down the results of her dragons. She told me that the official vet results would be mailed out to me. I never received them. So I did have "unofficial" test results from HER & not her VET that I had printed out. Get your facts straight.

Tracie

I do keep documentation
Tracie

Please post the emailed"unofficial" results from Denise with headers, since you keep all documentation..

 

[draggintails]

"get your facts straight" Tracie



That has never been one of MY problems, I have been trained to get facts...it's called "discovery" I went to a legal college and was on the deans list..that means all A's, ...although I quit long ago to stay home and eat chocolate..sometimes I do paralegal work for my husband's office...getting facts are the easy part of any situation.

you need to GET YOUR LIES STRAIGHT

 

[draggintails]

Mikey,

I don't think Denise mailed anything to Tracie..what I mean by that is contacted her in the first place. Denise wants to be left alone and should be. I am pretty sure Denise does not even want to be on the PATS site and that is involving her in this at this time. It is false information on the site and that is Tracie's fault not Denise's.

It truly is not about Denise. I know Denise never told Tracie that she had results from U of FL, but Tracie most certainly did tell me this..she even told me what the top of the paper said "University of Florida". I have spoken to Denise on the phone in the past and she never told me she tested at U of FL. Tracie on the other hand didn't (unless she went through crazily to read the old posts to try and dig herself out..like I am sure she did in a post reading fest the last few days) and absolutely told me this three times she had results sitting on her desk from the University of Florida. I asked her to repeat her self and she most certainly said the results were sitting right on her desk with University of FL on the top.

I normally do not make a big deal about things I am pleasant and easy going, but you pushed me when you lied about our phone conversation and thus, engaged me in battle. I do not like this and is a waste of perfectly good energy that could be used for better and more healthier things.

It appears that as of this morning there has not been even a filing for PATS for 501C3 status in the State of Florida. Tracie uses the words "clients" and I am unsure what that means..client means someone is paying for a service or product. It would be hard to file for a 501C3 as there is exposure of "defrauding the public" now on these boards.

 

[draggintails]

Tracie on the other hand didn't (unless she went through crazily to read the old posts to try and dig herself out..like I am sure she did in a post reading fest the last few days)

I meant to say Tracie on the other hand didn't know where Denise tested

 

[pscaulkins]

Breeders it's time to prove your theories

Okay enough bashing and name calling. Is this all there is to this forum?
You want to discuss adeno lets do it right. Heck, if I was in the market for a dragon and read this thread. I would not chose one breeder that has posted here as a breeder that I would want to do business with.

I have a few questions I would like answered myself. Just like you people, can you prove without a doubt the following questions. Do any of you have any scientific evidence that backs what you all say about adeno? So far I have read personal opinions and we all know they don't stand up a bit.

How does anyone know that adeno does not effect dragons?

Can anyone prove that a positive dragon can and will live a full normal life span?

Some people say it's in most dragons, anyone have any prove to back this. Exact percentages and such.

How do you people know husbandry causes the issues some positive dragons have? Do any of you know what those people's husbandry is like? Have you bothered to ask them? Who told you this?

So you all want scientific proof of what Tracie and us say, now it is your time to prove what you say.

I am more than willing to read whatever you can prove.

Let's do this in a mature way and not with childish posts like in the past. Otherwise, no one learns a thing and everyone reading this sees immature behavior.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Excellent post, Sandy. Some very good questions, I think.

 

[pscaulkins]

Hi Tere, all I want is to find out how they all came to their conclusions. Is there research that only a few people know about? This whole thread is a bash against one person. Not a thread for information unless you are looking for a breeder and will learn who to stay away from.

I am sure lots of people would want to know if they have scientific proof to back their statements. I know I do because if they have it, I am more than willing to read it.

 

[Extreme Dragons]

I think that it is very sad to that many of the bigger breeders do not frequent the forums and share their experience due to the idiots that bash people and pick out lines from their post to hold against them for eternity like scummy journalist and politicians. I would love to hear examples from Dachiu, Sandfire, Sunshine, and others of symptoms they have come across what works and what doesnt not just on adeno but on everything. I believe that they would help others in this way if it wasnt for people pointing out the bad stuff for ages. What if Sandfire came out and said they had such and such problem this is how they remedied it and how they recovered. People on here would take the problem they encountered and blame them for the existance of the problem and discourage people from buying from them as they too will likely have this problem. Im tired of spending hours of my time disconnected from my family reading these post for the very little info I get out of them.

I live in Frankfort,KY not too many big shows around here nor big breeders, I use this site to get info so I can correct something I may be doing wrong or for reference for future problems. I dont come on here to go back to 7th grade and here a bunch of garbage.

I yes Sandy I would consider buying from the breeders on here, I havent seen one thing in this thread that would tell me not too. This thread has however told me how little you and Tracie know about dragons. I have kept dragons for 3 years now and have started breeding this year. I have 8 adults and currently 21 babies, and around 50 eggs and I still dont believe that I know enough to be giving out info as Tracie does and she doesnt have half the experience I have.

I once thought that CheriS was the person to seek advice from, but after seeing the yellow fungus thing a couple of years ago and now this I believe that her and others on here could simply be hypercondriacts(spelling) I have family memebers like that, they always think there is something wrong with them and always think they are going to die.

And NO adeno is not like Hiv. From what I know Hiv always turns into aids eventually and aids will always eventually kill you (unless your Magic Johnson and have millions ) and I havent seen anything that tells me adeno will always show its ugly face and kill every dragon that has it.

To all the big breeders, there are plenty of people on here that respect you and are willing to listen and not judge you based on your experiences. Please share what you know and stop allowing idoits to push you away. Thanks, Charlie

 

[draggintails]

The "immature" behavior you say you are seeing is instead complete shock at your leaders deception. No one was called names , her persona was described. It is not correct to be hypocritical, visit some of your old posts.

You are correct, anyone reading this thread will see that PATS is a fraudulent organization..it's leader has mislead the public regarding testing results..this is a crime. These people will know to stay away from this organization and it's supporters and the breeders listed on it's breeders page.

Regarding not doing business with any of the good people on this thread...with 2,000 views on this thread, just the opposite has happened...many, many emails and private messages has come in thanking us for our truthfulness and people saying they will purchase dragons from these "honest" and "open" breeders. Proof will be noticed in the lack of correspondence PATS receives.

Make some calls Monday to IL, read the U of FL document. When you want proof it is best to do your own footwork.

 

[pscaulkins]

Still no proof. Give scientific evidence and I will listen.

I chose to do business with responsible, mature adults, not angry, rude, immature people. I am sure there is other people with the same attitudes as me. I have seen the above in many posts on this thread.

Yes, I would love to read what vet's, researchers and even large breeders has to say as long as it is not a yelling match.

The U of FL document states "not to breed positive dragons". What more do you need.

I have no leader, sheesh, now that is really mature thinking.

I can see no one on this site can have a intelligent conversation without knocking someone. No wonder no large breeder will come here.

There is no evidence on your side either. I didn't expect to read any. So maybe both sides are wrong. Ever think of that.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

What was the reason all those new bearded people come over from the other forums anyway?

 

[draggintails]

Sandy,


You must read the U of FL document the vets and researchers give you their information

U of FL document:
addressing prevalence: 5.8, 5.11
addressing husbandry: 4.2

This U of FL document holds the most information we have at this time, Austria should come out with their document soon and I or whomever sees it first will post that up as soon as it is published. I can call tomorrow and see where they are on that, all they have released is that they are currently testing positive but do not have statistics or research published yet.

The U of FL document does not say "do not breed positives"

IL prevalence 80% positive
IL did not give any other information except a statistic



What I do not agree with and why I am posting on this thread..is the attacking of the breeders for "spreading" a virus here and abroad. Blaming breeders for this. I have never participated in that. I disagree with those that do. Just as those that feel that way can attack viciously..the others like myself who feel differently may post as well.

AU is testing positive for AV on submission samples, this is important information that sheds new light on this virus.

 

[jenkznza]

pscaulkins what do you qualifies one as a large breeder?

 

[jenkznza]

Ooops. I'm running out of coffee. LOL The question is what do you feel qualifies one to be considered as a large breeder?