Adeno Thoughts

[pscaulkins]

Jenkznza, I consider a large breeder someone that has experienced adeno and all the other bad stuff beardies can get. That person not putting the money first but genuinely cares about them. What I have seen here is breeders yelling they are sick and tired of hearing about testing and adeno. They say it's nothing but they don't have experience. As a business person myself, I see the reason for this post. That is so sad.

This whole adeno thing reminds when the graissere virus (the virus is harmless but the worms are immune suppressed from it so they can get the bad bacteria that Jeff experienced) came out in silkworms and hornworms 3 years ago. This is a whole topic by itself so I will not go into it now.

Draggintails, thank you for reminding me to read it. I did and on page 9 of the report 4.1 What we know, it states adenovirus is associated with disease in bearded dragon. Many infected animals are asymptomatic. I knew this because I have two now but many is not all and doesn't mean husbandry is the reason.

For me to say that about not breeding, I know I read about it somewhere but don't have the time or energy to find it. A year ago, I had every article and website bookmarked and saved on my computer but the computer crashed and I had to get a new one and didn't have the time to do the research again.

I knew that AV was in Australia. I just read about a while ago.

I am not attacking anyone. I am like a lot of people that just want proof of what the breeders has stated.

Sorry, I do not know how to quote on this site.
Mooing Tricycle What was the reason all those new bearded people come over from the other forums anyway?

I have been a member here for a while. I just don't post much. I joined to read the threads arguments...To bad this forum can't have a friendly discussion so people would actually learn something instead of defending themselves. BTW, I am not new to bearded dragons.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Sorry, I do not know how to quote on this site.
Mooing Tricycle What was the reason all those new bearded people come over from the other forums anyway?

I have been a member here for a while. I just don't post much. I joined to read the threads arguments...To bad this forum can't have a friendly discussion so people would actually learn something instead of defending themselves. BTW, I am not new to bearded dragons.

( not new, to dragons, just new members, or new posters) There was just a large influx of users that were interested in beardies, and i was just curious as to the reasons they came over. I remember someone mentioning something because of another forum. Not a big deal, just interested.

As for the quoting, there is a button on the bottom right of every post, that you can click that has "quote" but you may also use BBC code to do this as well, Take out the *'s and change the name of the poster and you should be good to go.

[*QUOTE*=pscaulkins] [*/Quote*]

 

[whiskersmom]

pscaulkins wrote:

For me to say that about not breeding, I know I read about it somewhere but don't have the time or energy to find it.

Is this what you were talking about, Sandy?

TO: Cheri Smith
FROM: Elliott Jacobson
SUBJECT: Bearded dragon adenovirus

It has been brought to my attention that misinformation attributed to me is circulating concerning adenovirus infection of bearded dragons (BD).

A major problem is that despite our attempts to educate people who call us about this and other health issues of reptiles, those people lacking a medical background have a very real problem understanding what we are saying or may use what we discussed out of context. At times bits and pieces of things are heard and then weaved into something entirely different than what was originally stated.

My own opinion is that adenovirus is a significant health issue and a major effort is needed to eliminate this virus from breeding groups of BD. While we know relatively little about the biology and pathogenicity of this virus in bearded dragons, and that much research is needed to determine its overall health impact, it is my impression from cases that I have seen that this virus can result in severe hepatic necrosis (liver disease) and death. Thus known positive animals should never be sold in the pet trade. It may turn out that there may be different strains of this virus in bearded dragons that cause different degrees of mortality. This eventually needs to be studied. Outcomes of lizards that are infected need to be studied. How long can a BD shed virus? The questions go on and on. Ultimately, transmission studies are needed to show that a specific virus can kill lizards.

But, in the meantime, with more than 30 years of experience working with reptile pathogens I consider the adenovirus we have seen in bearded dragons a pathogen. It may act as a primary pathogen in certain cases while in others it may work in concert with other pathogens. Or, it is possible that a latent infection (one in which the virus is still present in low numbers somewhere in the animal's body) becomes active after "something" suppresses the animal's immune system. Still, the virus is a pathogen and an animal is certainly better off if it is not infected in the first place. The severe necrosis of the liver that is often seen with BDs infected with this virus is similar to the liver disease seen in other animals, including other reptiles, infected with adenovirus.

A similar adenovirus has been seen in boa constrictors having severe hepatic necrosis and transmission studies have been done to show that this virus can result in mortality (Jacobson ER, Gaskin JM, Gardiner CH. 1985. Adenovirus-like infection in a boa constrictor. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 187:1226-1227). I have seen a similar virus in other snakes dying with severe hepatic necrosis and in lizards other than bearded dragons having various clinical signs of illness and lesions (Wellehan JFX, Johnson AJ, Harrach B, Benko M, Pessier AP, Johnson CM, Garner MM, Childress C, Jacobson ER. 2004. Detection and analysis of six lizard adenoviruses by consensus primer PCR provides further evidence of a reptilian origin for the atadenoviruses. J Virol 78:13366-13369). These reports make it clear that this is not a benign agent.

Frye FL, MunnRJ, Gardner M, Barten SL, Hadfy LB. 1994. Adenovirus-like hepatitis in a group of related Rankin's dragon lizards (Pogono henrylawsoni) J Zoo Wildl Med 25:167-171.

Jacobson ER, Gaskin JM, Gardiner CH. 1985. Adenovirus-like infection in a boa constrictor. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 187:1226-1227

Jacobson ER, Kopit W, O'Brien B. 1996. Co-infection of a Bearded Dragon, Pogona vitticeps, with Adeno- and Dependo-like Viruses. Vet Path. 33:343-346
Julian AF, Durham JK. 1985. Adenoviral hepatitis in a bearded dragon (Amphibolurus barbatus). N Z Vet J 30:59-60.

Kim DY, Mitchell MA, Bauer RW, Poston R, Cho DY. 2002. An outbreak of adenoviral infection in inland bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps) coinfected with dependovirus and coccidial protozoa (Isospora sp.). J Vet Diagn Invest 14:332-334.

Wellehan JFX, Johnson AJ, Harrach B, Benko M, Pessier AP, Johnson CM, Garner MM, Childress C, Jacobson ER. 2004. Detection and analysis of six lizard adenoviruses by consensus primer PCR provides further evidence of a reptilian origin for the atadenoviruses. J Virol 78:13366-13369

I hope this provides some useful information.

With best regards,
Elliott Jacobson, DVM, PhD, DACZM
Professor of Zoological Medicine
University of Florida

http://www.reptilerooms.com/displayarticle135-flat.html

 

[pscaulkins]

Thank you Whiskersmom, yes, that is where I read it.

Thank you Mooing Tricycle for showing me how to quote.

 

[jenkznza]

Jenkznza, I consider a large breeder someone that has experienced adeno and all the other bad stuff beardies can get. That person not putting the money first but genuinely cares about them. What I have seen here is breeders yelling they are sick and tired of hearing about testing and adeno. They say it's nothing but they don't have experience. As a business person myself, I see the reason for this post. That is so sad.

I’m sorry, but I’d have to disagree your conceptions here. You are not talking about large or experienced breeders you want to hear from breeders that agree with you. Qualified breeders are speaking out in this thread. Tammy has had experience with Adenovirus and she is speaking out. Other experienced breeders have spoken out in other threads just to be beaten up by inexperienced individuals who know better. Your not listening, because the breeders aren’t agreeing with you.

I think Dr. Jacobson put it correctly in this letter Cheri Smith posted.

A major problem is that despite our attempts to educate people who call us about this and other health issues of reptiles, those people lacking a medical background have a very real problem understanding what we are saying or may use what we discussed out of context. At times bits and pieces of things are heard and then weaved into something entirely different than what was originally stated.

For example you state:

Draggintails, thank you for reminding me to read it. I did and on page 9 of the report 4.1 What we know, it states adenovirus is associated with disease in bearded dragon. Many infected animals are asymptomatic. I knew this because I have two now but many is not all and doesn't mean husbandry is the reason.

Now lets look at the next section of this document.

4.2 What We Suspect.

4.2.1 Disease caused by Adenovirus is affected by other cofactors, such as immune status, husbandry, and other sources of stress.

Nobody likes to hear that they may have done something to compound an already negative situation, but you must at least be open to the possibility.

I have talked with several experienced beeders concerning Adenovirus. The resounding answer has been to look at contributing factors. If you maintain animals with healthy immune systems in the proper environment the chances of Adenovirus becoming a problem are greatly diminished.

Dr. Jacobson's report states:

This is a poorly studied topic and there are many gaps in our understanding that have been filled with rumor and misinformation.

The "yelling" has been directed at one individual who has been promoting improper care and a self serving mind set. The breeders in this thread have spoken out against this very thing.

 

[draggintails]

Jeff,

Be fair, Tracie has given out proper habitat care paralleled in some of our care sheets....I can say that she has not promoted improper care from what I have seen.

Well, Sandy is right..I do not have experience with AV. When I first began testing all of my Chris Allen stock came back positive they were all perfect and healthy, but with those letters that you read from the vets I knew this was serious and unfortunately those animals are gone...this was one of the written recommendations from a vet that had information posted on reptile rooms and I can not remember his name. Those animals were never sick so I can say honestly that I don't have answers on rehabilitation or dealing with illness and then recovery, medicines, etc. They were good and sparkly animals, but at that time with what information we had I could not have them here, breed them, or give them away.

When Dr. Stacey and I had one of our marathon talks much later I had mentioned my agony over this and he nearly fainted when he found out those animals were put down. I brought up Dr. J's letter and he said (also in writing in an email to me) "that letter was taken out of context" it was sent to Cheri after an email from Sunshine Dragons had sick and dying animals and the owner kept breeding them. I don't know that situation at all, that was from Dr. Stacey.

Frankly, the letter had a greeting and a salutation so the letter was for everyone otherwise, it would have said Dear Bruce...the way I see it. Dr. Stacey then began to tell me that at that time they had done much more testing in an influx than when that letter was put out and that "most" dragons have it as well as dragons in other countries testing "mostly" positive and these dragons were asymptomatic and that there were no "all" negative colonies ever tested in any testing lab. Dr. Stacey said "if positives are bred just watch them". I asked for them to address the breeding in this paper to give us guidance and legal would not let them put a breeding recommendation in the paper.

I would assume another paper will be in the works here shortly to offer more information and on a global level as well, hopefully it will provide us with updated thoughts or guidelines on breeding..I don't know. I will keep asking and making calls and gathering info..help would be appreciated..no one has offered and I understand people are busy..I am too, but someone has to do it..research and information does not pop into your lap..you have to appeal the universities and labs for this and I am only one person.

I don't know what to tell anyone on this issue, I have never in any post made recommendations on this virus..that is out of my league.

I see that the animals were brought in with this being they are not native to the US and AV does not species hop, and when tested positives are revealed globally. So with this new info even after those papers were written...we now need more and updated info from the researchers..that makes sense right?

 

[draggintails]

clarification: legal would not let U of FL give recommendations for breeding positives or not breeding positives, would not give a recommendation either way



anyone interested call them and they will explain it better, everyone in the lab is very pleasant and willing to take the time on the phone to answer questions

 

[Tere Salazar]

"I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" Lou Ann Miller

I just had this email sent to me, and I have Xed out the person's information who sent it. If that person wishes to verify that they actually received this email, that is up to them.





Subject: Date: Sunday, May 11, 2008 3:01 PM

Re: AV question Size: 7 KB

Priority: Normal




Hello XXX,


I did not say discouraging people.


I said I'm not strongly encouraging/ promoting.


There is a difference. Â I'll assume this will be posted.




I WOULD recommend this test to any animal owner or bearded dragon owner with a sick animal. Especially as the test will detect other virus, such as the Adeno helper virus (This is exceedingly nasty), calici, corona and other virus.


As for screening for healthy animals , I would go on the advice of a qualified reptile specialist. Â I am not a reptile specialist.




When this virus was first looked out, it was not clear if this was ubiquitous in the bearded dragon population.  Thanks to all who worked hard and sent samples to Illinois and Florida who helped generate data,  it seems the virus is ubiquitous.  In other words, nearly all have it. Those with negative by  the EM scope, sometimes showing up positive later in PCR.  The virus is probably everywhere.




If you had a sick animal, one would want to be sure the "helper virus" is not present, or another virus, should do the test..


Would it be a good idea to test a dragon before purchasing? Â Very Possibly, but again, a specialist should answer this.


Again, I'm not a reptile specialist, Â and when and how much to test should go on the word of a specialist.


I hope this helps,




Lou Ann
















On May 11, 2008, at 1:45 PM, XXX wrote:


Hi LouAnn,
I'm sure you are way too busy to remember me but I am one of the many people who sent you samples to have my beardies tested for Adeno virus. Their names are XXX and XXX.
My question to you is I recently read in a forum (Fauna Classifieds)Â a quote that you had supposedly said "I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" I was hoping that you could clarify this for me or at least verify this quote.
Â
Thanks and Happy Mother's Day,
XXX

 

[Bearded Wizard]

Still no proof. Give scientific evidence and I will listen.

I chose to do business with responsible, mature adults, not angry, rude, immature people. I am sure there is other people with the same attitudes as me. I have seen the above in many posts on this thread.

Sandy correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the first 6-7 pages of this threads questions for you, Tracie and the PATS organization? I believe since we asked those questions first they need to be answered the in order asked! If you and Tracie want to continue to ignore them, then we will be more than happy to follow the same suit... Ignorance breeds ignorance!

Anthony

 

[Bearded Wizard]

I just had this email sent to me, and I have Xed out the person's information who sent it. If that person wishes to verify that they actually received this email, that is up to them.





Subject: Date: Sunday, May 11, 2008 3:01 PM

Re: AV question Size: 7 KB

Priority: Normal




Hello XXX,




I WOULD recommend this test to any animal owner or bearded dragon owner with a sick animal. Especially as the test will detect other virus, such as the Adeno helper virus (This is exceedingly nasty), calici, corona and other virus.


As for screening for healthy animals , I would go on the advice of a qualified reptile specialist. Â I am not a reptile specialist.


I hope this helps,




Lou Ann

This all the proof I need to realize this is not an epidemic and any individual just reading through this thread will realize this as well! The words from a University researcher basically saying if they are sick test them(Duh), and if not it's totally up to the breeder and their Vet's recommendation. So she only recommends for sick dragons, which is the entire point of this discussion since 99% of the breeders represented here and do not have a single sick dragon in their care. So why test? Well that question was just answer by the woman that does the testing, and her recommendations are to talk to your Vet and make your own decisions!

Does this sound like an epidemic to you? It most certainly doesn't to me, her tone of voice and relaxed posture in her writing shows that his is just another virus that can be present in a large number of sick dragons... The End!

Anthony

 

[whiskersmom]

Hi Tere!!!!!!

I can verify that email as I was the one who sent it.


Btw, your personal message box is full, Tere!

 

[Bearded Wizard]

Jenkznza, I consider a large breeder someone that has experienced adeno and all the other bad stuff beardies can get.

What? What kind of a sentence is this? Anyone large, small, or even a private collector can experience these symptoms! That has nothing to do with being large, and actually if you would visit a large breeder you would see that they have a lot less problems or no problems when compared to the smaller to medium breeders because they are on top of their game! Their is a reason why breeders like myself look to Jeff, Rob/Vickie, Rich, and Tammy for advice, they have been doing this stuff for a long time and have an understanding far and above anyone else! And this is why all of them have Vets calling and asking questions about husbandry set-ups and even how to treat certain bacterias, worms, and fungus because these breeders have more experience in that area than the vet and they know what works from experience! So it comes down to experience again, and yes I don't have the experience these individuals have(years in), but I'm doing my best to surround myself the with the best and brightest! As that's the best way to learn is by sitting down at someone's house in PA and picking their brain for 3.5 hours! I did that last weekend, and their is a reason why we network on a daily or weekly basis as we want to progress in our knowledge and care, so we collectively share our experiences thus making each individual stronger in their knowledge and husbandry! We want to know what UVB lights are working for me versus what's working for them, and through these discussions we can share experiences of what works and why! Though I do have over 5 years experience with bearded dragons and 2 years breeding, I'm still learning a ton from a lot of great people; but I don't pretend to know everything their is to know. If I don't know an answer I will let you know that I don't, but If I do have an answer I will let you know based upon my experience and the experience of other breeders that I work with this is what works for us... Now common/general advice doesn't work for everyone, as over a dozen environmental factors play a role in your dragons health and how your husbandry should be set up as each state is different... So if you don't know what I'm talking about then you need to seriously sit down a call up one of these breeders to work on your husbandry as no one should have unhealthy dragons regardless if they have Adeno or no... Their are breeders right now doing personal test with adeno positive dragons and guess what they are as healthy as any other dragon out their, they are thriving and doing just fine! I can't wait for a few of these individuals in future to release this information, or they might not in fear people like Sandy and Tracie will just bash them for having positive dragons... I hope a lot of people reading from the sidelines are learning/absorbing a lot in general about bearded dragon care, and if you have any questions feel free to PM any of the breeders that have posted here as helping the general public is one of your goals as well, and one of the reasons why this thread was started!

Anthony

 

[Tere Salazar]

Mikey,

I don't think Denise mailed anything to Tracie..what I mean by that is contacted her in the first place. Denise wants to be left alone and should be. I am pretty sure Denise does not even want to be on the PATS site and that is involving her in this at this time. It is false information on the site and that is Tracie's fault not Denise's.

Oh, really? If Denise didn't want to be on Tracie's site, then why did Denise and I have many conversations about her being on Tracie's site? And why would she have engaged in these conversations with Tracie? I don't know, but if I weren't interested in doing something, I certainly wouldn't go into this much detail about it. Further on that point, I think this shows that Tracie stated exactly what she believed, that she would receive those results.


Denise wrote:
> Hi Tracie,
> I think I must have misunderstood something when we talked. My
understanding
> was that there were going to be forms on your website that we filled
> out
and
> had notarized? If I'm wrong let me know. My life is sort of hectic and
> stressed right now, so it's a good bet that I misunderstood. I hate to
sound
> like a dimwit, but could you please tell me exactly how you want this
> information submitted and I promise I will get to it as quickly as
possible. [Personal conversation removed]

> Denise
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: drache613
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:43 PM
> To: Denise%40calidragons.com
> Subject: Hello
>
> Hello Denise,
>
> Just wanted to catch up with you. How are those hard copies coming
> along for me? [Personal conversation removed]





Tracie,
The form was great, very easy to understand. If I can get to my vet anytime soon I'll have her release my records to you, simply because it saves me the hassle of testing yet again. Please promise me that you won't release the name of my vet though. She is really awesome, and I simply don't want her bothered. [Other personal conversation removed]

Denise




-----Original Message-----
From: XXXdrache613
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:57 PM
To: Denise
Subject: RE: Hello

Hello Denise,

[Personal conversation removed]

Oh what did you think of that form, was it easy to read?

Tracie

 

[Tere Salazar]

Hi Tere!!!!!!

I can verify that email as I was the one who sent it.


Btw, your personal message box is full, Tere!

Thank you, Sherri.

I will clean out my box right now. Thanks for letting me know!

 

[draggintails]

Tracie told me she had test results sitting on her desk from University of Florida with negative results for Denise Latanzi. This is fact.

Then she says after this on this forum they were supposed to be emailed and Denise would send them, this I thought to be another embelishment because I had been told one already that I knew for fact was untrue.

I will apologize to Tracie on that statement, but not for covering for her and telling me an untruth on the phone..but yes, I am sorry that I thought Denise would never say this to her..so Tracie I apologize that I did not believe you on that. Those emails are terrible.

Let me bring up old blood for explanation as much as I hate it: Denise did not have PCR tests, any samples pulled by Studio City Animal Hospital. SCAH has not sent in one bearded dragon adeno sample...(please, please confirm this) Dr. Stacey (U of FL) was so intrigued with Denise's statement on the forum that they called SCAH. "There is no Denise Latanzi in our database" "No, we do not do that testing at our hospital" Dr. Flanagan/owner/Studio City Animal Hospital.

Call Dr. Stacey or Dr. Jacobson and ask him about his conversation with Dr. Flanagan..he will be happy to speak with you about it. Also, there has been no barrage of phone calls to that hospital as much as one would like to claim, that is a smoke screen. Pick up the phone Tracie, these are professionals who will be happy to speak with you about this and correct false information.

Tracie, There is no way she will send you verifiable old PCR test results, they do not exist. You know this. That is why I thought Denise could not have said this to you in a million years, for that I apologize.

 

[Valley Dragons]

This all the proof I need to realize this is not an epidemic and any individual just reading through this thread will realize this as well! The words from a University researcher basically saying if they are sick test them(Duh), and if not it's totally up to the breeder and their Vet's recommendation. So she only recommends for sick dragons, which is the entire point of this discussion since 99% of the breeders represented here and do not have a single sick dragon in their care. So why test? Well that question was just answer by the woman that does the testing, and her recommendations are to talk to your Vet and make your own decisions!

Does this sound like an epidemic to you? It most certainly doesn't to me, her tone of voice and relaxed posture in her writing shows that his is just another virus that can be present in a large number of sick dragons... The End!

Anthony

Can I get an "Amen" from the crowd? LOL. Great post Anthony.

It's actually starting to become kinda funny that these people just DON'T want to believe that large breeders could ACTUALLY have healthy animals. And it's a HORRIFIC thought that they might not be money-grubbing liars. I mean, come on? Where's the fun in that?

Jamie

 

[mikey]

Hello,
By the way, Tammy, fyi, I never said that I had Denise's "official" test results. What I said was that I had an "email" from Denise where Denise wrote down the results of her dragons. She told me that the official vet results would be mailed out to me. I never received them. So I did have "unofficial" test results from HER & not her VET that I had printed out. Get your facts straight.

Please post the emailed"unofficial" results from Denise with headers, since you keep all documentation..

Tere,
Have Tracie, Denise, or Sherry suddenly lost their ability to communicate or type on their own ? You are posting emails that YOU neither wrote or received and you truly think with stand up and are believable? I asked Tracie to post the original email from Denise listing here "unofficial" results. Not hard, I would think, for her to produce and post that REAL email.

 

[mikey]

Let me bring up old blood for explanation as much as I hate it: Denise did not have PCR tests, any samples pulled by Studio City Animal Hospital. SCAH has not sent in one bearded dragon adeno sample...(please, please confirm this) Dr. Stacey (U of FL) was so intrigued with Denise's statement on the forum that they called SCAH. "There is no Denise Latanzi in our database" "No, we do not do that testing at our hospital" Dr. Flanagan/owner/Studio City Animal Hospital.


Tracie, There is no way she will send you verifiable old PCR test results, they do not exist. You know this. That is why I thought Denise could not have said this to you in a million years, for that I apologize.

We all have known this, it is old news. Denise never tested blood PCR, but by producing the original"unofficial results" email from Denise to Tracie, it will show Tracie was indeed mislead. And I for would cut her some slack for making a HONEST judgement error.

 

[whiskersmom]

I'm sorry Mikey, could you please clarify? What, pray tell, did I post (other then the letter from Dr. Jacobson to Cheri) that I did not receive??? Did you not read that I freely admitted that I was the one who asked Lou Ann if she in fact made the quote that draggintails says she did.

I forwarded that email of my coorespondence with Lou Ann to Tere because I know how you folks all love verification. LOL!!!

 

[mikey]

I'm sorry Mikey, could you please clarify? What, pray tell, did I post (other then the letter from Dr. Jacobson to Cheri) that I did not receive??? Did you not read that I freely admitted that I was the one who asked Lou Ann if she in fact made the quote that draggintails says she did.

I forwarded that email of my coorespondence with Lou Ann to Tere because I know how you folks all love verification. LOL!!!

Sherri, You have always been a forthright, honest straight shooter in all the threads we have been involved together in. I, in no way, doubt your honesty, but would rather see people post on their own. It keeps things real for me, thats all.. Everything can be verified, if so needed.