Anyone else wondering about the Ball Python adds at KS?

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

Have you seen todays' adds? Brian Sharp posted an add saying he was Double het snows from the VPI Axanthic Line and un-named line Albino, and that "no other 2002 double het for snows are available" at this time. He goes on to say the he has them "priced very reasonably, as I'm still trying to pull money together for a land deal."

Sounds cool..........

Then Ralph Davis Shows up and posts and add Saying he will sell double het snows from the VPI line Axanthic, he opens the add saying "hurry I need money fast", but then in the add comments that "I don't have to raise any money for land deals..............I want top dollar for these Double Hets............it takes a lot of work and luck to produce a Snow Ball from breeding Double Hets together." He finishes with how you should e-mail him because you will " be supported by a breeder who isn't going to "tank" your project to buy toys."

OK, getting a bit nasty, but...........

Then Tracy Barker posts an add stating that "AFTER SEEING RALPH'S VPI SNOW DO YOU THINK I'M SELLING MORE THAN A PAIR?!" Naturally hers is VPI as well (She IS VPI isn't she?) and she states that "AND THE BEST PART-I'M NOT IN A HURRY"

Am I the only one starting to feel like I am the ONLY person who doesn't have a couple Double Het for Snow Ball Pythons laying around in an old drawer somewhere?

 

[The BoidSmith]

????

Cheryl,

Yes I saw them. I was particularly puzzled by the following expression:

you will " be supported by a breeder who isn't going to "tank" your project to buy toys."

Meaning???

In my opinion the "snow" ball python is one of the less attractive morphs out there. But I guess that's just my personal taste.

Regards.

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

Hi Daniel,
I'm not too impressed with the snow ball either, at least not with the look of the animals. I am rather fascinated with the genetics end, but thats more on a "Wow, thats neat!" kind of thing. (I love Punett squares, I'm not good at them yet, but I love working them out!) I am really impressed with both the Axanthic, and the albino balls, and with the luecristic(SP?) that Kahl has. (If you've not seen the pics, check her out, wish I could see her in person!

http://www.pkreptiles.com/

I do wonder about the game the big guys are playing over there though. Now Davis has posted saying he will take offers on his snow, and that he will consider trades for leucritic balls named "Snoopy." I guess Kahls pretty luecristic is named "Snoopy" or there is another I'm not aware of?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Yes, I saw the add too. If I had to choose between a snow and a leucistic I'll go for this last one. Any ways I don't have the money for either one.

Among my favorite morphs is also the axanthic (although they are not as attractive as adults) but moreso the mojave from the Sutherlands. I'm currently working with a pair of cinnamons (the female labeled as such in Daytona a couple of years ago by Tracy herself). It seems she is currently pregnant (cross my fingers)! That's a variant I really like as it still maintains the "wild type" but with a very distinct color.

Best regards,

Daniel

 

[BrianB]

I think the classified ad thing was a pretty good example of the basic problem with a cartel: Someone will eventually break the cartel and the market will crash. How hard would depend on how artificially inflated the prices are.

I think the prices on new morphs are pretty insane with ball pythons, personally. Then again, the big breeders who put up the money up front and assume ALL the risk on a new morph (that leucistic of Kahl's is rumored to have sold to him for $100k from the importer/farm in Ghana), and put all of the work into proving it, developing the bloodline, etc. That can add up to many years' of blood, sweat and tears with animals like bps with such low clutch sizes. There are so many variables that it's tough to say exactly how much a new morph should enter the market at, based on actual risks and expenses involved.

Look at piebalds. Those hit the market at $25k and up, then soon after, several of the big breeders had really good success with them, and production was pretty high. (I hope that means it's a strong-breeding bloodline, btw). So, some of the price lists were adjusted sharply downward. Seems like supply and demand took care of that pricing issue pretty well.

I don't know what's up with the seeming animosity in regards to Sharp's ad, though. Really, he's not even stated a price in the ad. And a double het project with BPs is a major crap shoot, so a few pairs of hets aren't going to impact the big picture much no matter what he sells them for. Demand should be high enough that even if Sharp's animals are sold off cheap, everyone else should be able to move whatever they have for a good price anyway. Still, the only motive I can see is fear of the market failing b/c the price cartel has been broken. (Not meant in the formal sense, but the market prices are usually set based off of several of the big breeders, and people don't generally like being undercut.)

Bottom line, the morph market is very speculative, and if there's an adjustment in supply/demand, then it's going to happen. If demand is high, a few people selling some animals off for a discount is not going to hurt the market. This should be true even if every single small time breeder undercuts the big breeders by half. If the demand is there, then those who were undercut will be still able to sell. If not, the prices will have to meet somewhere in the middle. I think that the maturity time and small clutch size (and years off for females) will keep the prices on ball morphs up sufficiently on its own, b/c they're built-in limiters of supply. Can't really see what the fuss is about with one guy offering a deal on some double hets, unless there's more to the situation than was posted in those ads. Whole thing seemed kind of weird.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Brian,

You made very valid points.

Bottom line, the morph market is very speculative, and if there's an adjustment in supply/demand, then it's going to happen. If demand is high, a few people selling some animals off for a discount is not going to hurt the market.

Bare in mind this just an opinion, but I think the rush in trying to sell those hetero for snow is what you have just said. By now these breeders have probably figured out that only a VERY limited number of those snakes will actually be sold. Particularly in a market that's hurting already. But how many will spend 50 K and over just for the novelty of this "new" morph. ? From my perspective this one took away all the beauty of color/shades/patterns ball pythons offer!

A white, red-eyed ball?! If I had the money, and was given the choice between a mojave, piebald or a snow I wouldn't have to think too much about which one would be my last choice! In fact, I'd probably buy a Mercedes Benz and a nice looking normal ball python.

 

[The BoidSmith]

The "Star Wars" saga continues!

Later this summer, I’ll have a limited number (probably a few pairs) of VPI line double het for snow ball python youngsters for sale. These are valuable animals, and they will not be given away. However, they will be priced fairly…fair to me, AND fair to you. If you want to lock yourself in with a deposit for the privilege of paying a higher price for the very same animals, it’s your choice.

If you’re seriously interested in some double hets for this summer, just contact me with your name and phone number. I will maintain a list of these requests, and as hatching time draws near, I’ll contact people in the order in which their request was received. No deposit, no obligation, no land deals, just great animals at fair prices.

Morale: ..."Today's clients are tomorrow's competitors"...

 

[Pennebaker]

And some of these adds are not against the TOS on KS? I guess the veiled badmouthing of competition is ok because no exact names are mentioned?
Pretty cut-throat. Guess that is what happens in a suffering economy.
Dana

 

[The BoidSmith]

Dana,

You are right! Speaking about a hurting economy, get a load of this one!

With the purchase of one albino, male or female, I will throw in for free, either one het. for albino male or one 50% possible het. for albino female. With the purchase of a pair of albino, which would be $5,000, I will throw in for free, one 100% het. for albino male and two 50% possible het. for albino females. With the purchase of 1.2 albinos for $7,500, I will throw in for free, 1.1 100% het. for albino pair and two 50% possible het. for albino females.

And it comes from a very reputable breeder.

Best regards.

 

[Seamus Haley]

This is going a bit off topic but, since it was brought up...

And some of these adds are not against the TOS on KS?

If any of the individuals involved get slapped with a TOS violation, Jeffy-boy loses advertising money, serious advertising money... not just from the specific individual who gets ticked and pulls their classified account, hosted website and banner ads... But all their friends. And the people involved have a lot of friends... everyone who wants one of their animals now or at any point in the future... Plus if you take a look at the people who have sites that are informational in addition to selling items, are active as "names" in the forums and are featured frequently in the guest chats... Jeff can't piss these people off or his website will tank even faster than it has been. Just more evidence of the staggered playing field over at KS, I'm almost tempted to get permission from a friend, buy a month's worth of vanilla classifieds and start subtely bad-mouthing them just to see how quickly I get all my posting abilities yanked, since I'm not a major supporter of the website in any form.

I do agree with the comments about the highly speculative nature of the morph market, there are near infinite variables that are taken into consideration, simple supply and demand and the likelyhood of major purchases in the current economy are certainly some of the biggest factors but by no means the only. In this case though, it's easy to see people getting irate about even one or two sales at a signifigantly reduced price, with such a limited market and high price tags, every sale someone else makes is another they're sitting on without profit, however I don't like morphs in general so I'm inclined to simply laugh at how worked up they're getting... I have a great deal of respect for the accomplishments of all the named individuals and no personal antagonism or dislike for any of them (mostly anyway) but it is somewhat gratifying to sit here in an apartment full of animals I simply "like", none of which, were I inclined to sell them, would get me $50K and watch the delicate market they have created crumble just a tiny bit underneath them.

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Kingsnake.com????????????

Are you guys still supporting that web site, by viewing their advertisements? I got better.