Argentine boa question (advanced)

[hhmoore]

This thread is the followup to a PM conversation I had with another member. Basically, I questioned the sale/purchase/shipping of Argentine boas. B.c.occidentalis is CITES I (from cites.org - "includes species threatened with extinction. Trade in specimens of these species is permitted only in exceptional circumstances"). My understanding had been that CITES I animals were covered under the Endangered Species Act, which, among other things, prohibits the delivery, receipt, transport, or shipping of protected species in interstate or foreign commerce.

Argentine boas are regularly advertised, but I seldom see the disclaimer for in-state sales only...as opposed to Indian pythons (also CITES I), which are rarely listed without that disclaimer. One of the reasons I am not currently working with this species is that I did not want to deal with the hassles of federal permits...So the questions I am posing here are: was I mistaken in my belief, and interpretation of the Endangered Species Act? Can Argentine boas, by virtue of whatever graces, be traded as freely (within the boundaries of the US) as BCI/BCC?
Any info would be much appreciated.

I guess I should post this in the shipping forum, also.

 

[cornchips]

I know that LLLReptile sells them no questions asked cause I just bought one..So I am thinking that this CITIES permit may only be for imports/export? BUT I dont much about this..

 

[Mike Greathouse]

Harald,
Since our discussion last night via PM about this, I have emailed a couple of people who I think/hope will know the legalities surrounding the interstate sale and transport of B.c. occidentalis.

As soon as I hear back, I'll post here.

Thanks for bringing this up. If it turns out that Argentines cannot be shipped without Federal permits, I'm sure that there are a great many people who would like to know this.

 

[hhmoore]

I know that LLLReptile sells them no questions asked cause I just bought one..So I am thinking that this CITIES permit may only be for imports/export? BUT I dont much about this..

CITES documentation IS only needed for import export...the Endangered Species Act is different, though. There is (or was) a different federal permit involved for moving endangered species across state lines (can't recall if it is USDA or USFW, though). Honestly, I would say that a good percentage of the people that keep them don't even know that Argentines are CITES I...at least they were - I went to check last night, and the list was being updated and unavailable. Quite frankly, I don't even want to deal with state ES permits any more...not that they are all that difficult to obtain/maintain. I will contact the DEC next week to try to sort it out.

I guess part of my question is IF nothing is required for this species, why do some places limit themselves to in-state sales. And what is different about them than other CITES I, or native endangered species, that do require federal permits? Or is that no longer even required?? I have been out of that loop for a while, sometimes things do change for the better.

 

[hhmoore]

just in case any of you think I am crazy, I figured I would post an example:
http://www.eastbayvivarium.com/pricelist/boalist.html
maybe I will contact them, too

if anybody is interested, an overview of the Endangered Species Act can be found here: http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/esa.pdf
the real deal can be seen at: http://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa.html

 

[hhmoore]

resolution

ok - officially, Argentine boas are not included on the US endangered species list (I was finally able to access that tonite); and so, not governed by the ESA. My confusion came from the fact that initially, the ESA included both native and non-native animals. After CITES came into being, any changes in status were covered there...and not necessarily amended to the ES list (but animals that were already there, stayed). Since the Argentine boa changed status in '87, it fell into that situation - increased protection under CITES, but not added to the list because it was already covered elsewhere. Animals that were considered endangered prior to the evolution of CITES are protected by both laws (ie P.m. molurus). Somewhere along the line, I must have misinterpreted a statement about CITES I animals and animals on the US endangered species list (whether it was something I read or was told, I cannot say at this point).
Special thanks to Kathy Love, for pointing out what I should have deduced for myself. (I knew the applicable dates, just didn't make the correlation)

Of course, that still leaves me confused about those places that limit sales to in-state...but at least I know I can breed/sell them if I find the space. And, if I had thought about Dumerils boas being Appendix 1, I might have avoided all of this, lol.

 

[Mike Greathouse]

Harald & Kathy,
Thank you both for the information and the clarification. I'm sure that many will find this helpful - I know that I have.

Thank you,

 

[cornchips]

Just for the record I cancelled my order, they had only males..