Bad Guy BAD EXPERIENCE: Kicks Balls / Fred Kick / Kick Brothers / Reptile Addicts / Pets Plus

[Johns Orange Dragons]

I purchased a big red female Nigerian Uromastyx from Kicks Balls (aka Fred Kick / aka Kick Brothers / aka Reptile Addicts / aka Pets Plus) in March 2017 at the Long Island Reptile Expo at Suffolk Community College in Brentwood, NY. I bought her for $85. A tall guy was selling her to us as he pressed in her sides and said she feels pregnant. She was not. I'm sure that was a sales tactic. Anyway, we never spend time in our Uromastyx room unless it's quick feeding and cleaning time, so we don't know if she was eating and pooping. She lived with a male who is the same size, and a smaller female. They are perfectly healthy. We noticed a couple of times when we give them their daily escarole/dandelion/collard greens mixture in a lid with water, she would walk over just to drink the water. She still climbed up to the basking spot and down at night to sleep. They were housed in a 40-gallon breeder tank with a Powersun 160-watt bulb, the hot spot is 110 degrees (the room is always warm), and the room is around 68 degrees overnight. We noticed she was sleeping a lot in the last 2 months and thought she was just tired. Instead we eventually realized that she was weak. I lifted her up and noticed the bottom of her tail no longer had any fat to it. The base of her tail on top also lost its fat, and her body thickness toward her armpits also lost some size. We decided to give her a bath and put "Pet Authority's Leapin Lizards Electrolytes With Vitamins And Minerals" in the water (she didn't drink at all), as well as directly onto her back (seeps into her skin), and orally (opened her mouth with tweezers). We also gave her some Grassland Grazer product orally with a syringe. We did this daily for 2 weeks as she would not eat or drink. Every 2 hours her eyes would open and she would move around, but the rest of the time she would sleep. We asked Kicks Balls for help, but they just said to do what we suggested ourselves.


She died in August. The baths, nor the electrolytes with vitamins, nor the Grassland Grazer product helped at all. Her body shut down and she slowly lost the rest of her fat in every other part of her body. When I think about it, every time we fed and cleaned them for the past 4 months, our other 2 Red Nigerian Uros were the only ones who ever ran over to the food as soon as we placed it inside the tank. I doubt if she ever ate anything at all and probably just lived off her own body fat, but I can't prove that since we never spent time in the reptile room other than to feed and clean them. Every time we walked in there, she was sleeping most of the time. ***Anonymous third-party quotation string removed by a moderator. - Nick*** I emailed them specifically asking if this is what they do, and they didn't deny it, so we assume that it is true. IF this is true, it's no wonder she didn't make it! How could they be more interested in making a quick buck instead of the welfare of the poor animal? So now I am not only out the $85 I've spent on her, but I've lost time and additional money on products trying to save her, lost a pet, received heartbreak from her death, and most importantly: she was robbed of a long life that she could have lived! IF what the reptile store said is true, ALL of this is because of Kicks Balls' (shows you their class in the name alone) neglect in the proper care of these animals prior to selling them to the public with their POOR business practices!!! We've done EVERYTHING PERFECTLY in the proper care of her, as her tank-mates were all healthy for years, so we know it was most definitely not our wrong-doing. If they expect to have happy customers and happy pets, they seriously need to start doing what's right on their end as a seller! Then not only did they decline a refund, but they had the gall to offer us a discount on another Uromastyx! If they honestly think that we would chance buying another sick animal from them again with their poor business practices, they're out of their minds!!! It's too bad we didn't consult the BOI on here prior to purchasing a lizard from them. There's bad feedback on them under all of their previous names: Fred Kick, Kick Brothers, Reptile Addicts, and Pets Plus. We could saved a lot of heart-ache for us, as well as our poor pet. Gee, we wonder why they've changed their name so many times. Got something to hide???

 

[Donald C]

A bit of advice is that you should never, never introduce a brand new animal to your established collection. You should always quarantine the new arrivals so that you can quickly identify if there is a problem with the animal, without the risk of contaminating your other animals. Had you done so, you would have notices right away if it was eating or behaving normally.

In this case, you should get a necropsy done on the deceased uro. This will tell you how it died, and whether you need to treat your other uros.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

John, I will mention a few points that will be irrespective of specific care parameters.

Awareness. I would advise closer monitoring going forward. Better observational efforts would (or could) have led to discovery earlier and maybe the ability to intervene prior to some unknown tipping point. Not knowing if an animal was eating or defecating is not exactly something I would want to be able to claim if I were a caregiver.

Quarantine. How long of one is often arbitrarily assigned, but implementation of some kind is pretty much always a good practice. It can be determined to be unnecessary under specific sets of circumstances, but is still good practice in broad application. There are ways to drastically reduce the length as a measured risk, but that is achieved an advanced set of tactics that are well beyond the situation described.

Nothing appreciable was going to seep into her skin. Her skin is a barrier to loss as well as entry.

Time. You had approximately three months (or perhaps "only" two) elapse based on your timeline before you really even noticed something amiss (acquired in March, died in August, and noticed two months prior to death). That is well beyond a reasonable expectation of them doing anything and I am definitely not promoting them by any means. Did you take the animal to a veterinarian at all? I understand home care for bringing animals around, but there is a limit to what baths and supplements can achieve in various sets of circumstances and it appears you neither tested nor treated for potential parasitism (although you did expose other animals to that possibility). When those small measures were not reversing the decline, seeking assistance beyond your own abilities would be up for strong consideration.

We've done EVERYTHING PERFECTLY in the proper care of her

That has a slight aftertaste of hubris to it.

Reputation. That is supposed to be determined before purchase if at all possible. Long after the fact is not particularly useful to you as a buyer. As for their business name, I think it refers to ball/royal pythons, but I mostly lack clairvoyance. I have seen more obvious "balls" double entendre naming schemes if that is even in play here.

Per the rules, you need to name the party you are quoting. You have 24 hours to do so.

 

[dieselfan]

John I am sorry to hear about you're loss. Its always tough when you lose an animal that you put money, time ,and love into. I think there are a few things you could have done differently with not only the original purchase, but with you're husbandry as well. A few mins searching the BOI on your cell at the show would have shown you numerous bad BOI threads involving the Kick Bros/Fred Kick/Kicks Balls.

You never took her to the vet for a check up or a fecal after you bought her. You were perceptive enough to notice that she never ate, and claimed that she was surviving off her stored fat and again did not take her to the vet. You had her for 6MONTHS before she died and its Freds fault? That is garbage. Your lack of vet care is what likely killed the Uro not Fred Kick. Maybe next time you have any animal that gets sick you take it to a vet instead of watching it die and then blaming the person you bought it from. Better luck next time John!

 

[Guy Castro]

I purchased a big red female Nigerian Uromastyx from Kicks Balls (aka Fred Kick / aka Kick Brothers / aka Reptile Addicts / aka Pets Plus) in March 2017 at the Long Island Reptile Expo... Anyway, we never spend time in our Uromastyx room unless it's quick feeding and cleaning time, so we don't know if she was eating and pooping.

Hmmm...

 

[DavidBeard]

You did "everything perfectly" yet introduced a brand new animal into an enclosure with other animals with literally zero quarantine and admittedly have no clue if she was eating or defecating regularly?

Is this the Twilight Zone? Are we being Punked by Ashton Cold-chair or whatever his name is? Seriously....?

 

[KBenker]

Most Nigerian Uromastyx for sale are wild-caught imports, first thing that should have been done is quarantine her and get a fecal sample to the vet.

I suggest improving on your husbandry, a 40 gallon breeder is not sufficient for even a single uromastyx. They like a basking temperature of 130-140 degrees and once you achieve that temperature, a 40 gallon breeder will not have enough temperature gradient to provide an adequate cool side. The minimum enclosure recommendation for uromastyx is a 4x2x2 tank.

 

[Andy_G]

So...no quarantine, no observation and monitoring of a new animal, insufficient basking temps and insufficient space and 6 months until it dies. You actually did NOTHING right, never mind perfectly I am sorry to say. Hopefully you are new to this hobby and you will learn from your mistakes...if you aren't then I really doubt anyone sell to you after reading this.

 

[elena]

First of all, the Kicks are horrible.

But...

You didn't properly research your animal's seller before buying it. You didn't quarantine. You housed it in an enclosure that was way too small for three animals. You didn't take the time to monitor a new animal's health and behavior and therefor didn't notice that there was a problem for months. She got no parasite testing even though you knew she was WC. (You should test your other animals now). You admit, and this is critical, you rarely observe your animals. When you did notice something was wrong, you didn't take her to the vet for two months and she died. When you asked the Kicks for advice they gave it to you. Why no vet?

Despite the fact that you were likely sold a WC piece of garbage, by scumbags, no seller is responsible for the death of an animal after 6 months. If you'd observed her more closely you could have made a case for a refund/return way earlier, but you were too NEGLIGENT. I agree the animal was probably already in rough shape when you got it, but WC animals come in that way all the time, and most of them make it with proper care. She was already in a bad way and shouldn't have been sold at all, but you are also responsible because you NEGLECTED HER TO DEATH.

When purchasing WC animals, there are three critical things and you didn't do any of them.

1) Quarantine
2) vet visit with fecal sample
3) observe the animal to make sure it is eating and behaving normally

If you can't quarantine, you should not get new animals. If you can't afford vet visits you should not have any animals at all. If you don't observe your animals and make sure they are eating, that is classic neglect.

 

[Mech]

I thought this was going to be another bad guy Kicks Brothers thead .
I just don't see it here.
As others said there was so much more you should have done.
I have stumbled myself so I am not throwing rocks at you.

 

[Johns Orange Dragons]

Thanks so much for your harsh replies! We were referring to their perfect environment that we had given her which we followed to a tee from all of the many caresheets online. Even if she was quarantined and taken to a vet, a vet would have confirmed that she had a health issue due to Fred Kick's improper care, not ours.

 

[Donald C]

The uro appears to have been sold to you with a health problem, which should never have happened. But, you were the one that did nothing to correct that in 6 months of it being in your care. And you risked contaminating your other animals with a lack of quarantine.

For me at least, your lapse in care and attention is as inexcusable as that of selling the animal when it was sick.

 

[Johns Orange Dragons]

We're here to warn the public that Fred Kick is selling sick animals. In our decades of experience, 95% of the pets we've purchased never needed to be quarantined in their own enclosure or brought to a vet and most of them have lived for 12-15 years. And the ones that didn't make it in the beginning was because the seller sold us a sick animal. We have brought the sick ones to "reptile" vets before here on Long Island (Monaco, Hoefer, Freilicher, Rose Brothers, etc.), regardless of what stage their illness was at and they were ALL unsuccessful in saving them every time, so we're not a fan of vets. In fact try this experiment: Go to a reptile show and ask all the consumers if they first quarantine their new pets in a completely separate enclosure and/or bring them to a vet and you'll find that the majority does not and their pets have lived a healthy long time. We realize this web site is full of perfectionists, so we couldn't really care less about your opinions. Good luck buying a pet from Kicks Balls and let us know if it lives!

 

[Donald C]

To be perfectly honest, I have bought a few animals from them. All are counted among the living. And I know they are all healthy because I quarantined them and kept a very close eye on them for the duration of that time.

I have had a situation like yours in the past. Sick animal (a heavy parasite load on a cbb animal) sold by flipper. The main difference... a quarantine period and an experienced herp vet. The animal is still alive and healthy.

 

[Pasodama]

I have a friend who has purchased some CB Ball Pythons, from Kicks, on a few occasions. Those animals arrived beautiful and have been healthy (have to admit that it surprised me).
Maybe the Kicks CB Ball Pythons are a better bet, than their other animals, or perhaps my friend has just experienced some great luck.

That aside, Kicks does have a poor reputation. Most notably, regardless of anything else, is when it comes to their WC animals.
Kicks immediately, or virtually immediately, flip their WC animals. They certainly do not keep these animals long enough to ensure they are healthy &/or to correct any health issues.
I would *Never* purchase a WC animal, from Kicks, and, actually, I simply avoid them regardless of whether, or not, an animal is CB or WC (personal choice).

I have purchased WC, and LTC, animals, here or there, over the years (none from Kicks).
Any time I do so, or have done so, these animals are always quarantined (even new CB animals should be), for a time, and, no matter what a seller tells me (even those with a good rep), I treat them as though they are fresh captures (with the necessary care) ... including treatment for parasites, etc., etc. Also, a close eye is kept on them.
To date, I have never lost a WC animal.<knock on wood>

I do not approve of Kicks practices with WC animals, do not care for how they have handled some negative situations with customers, and it is ~wrong~ for them to sell any ill animals.
As an aside, I would also fault Kick's for not disclosing if an animal is WC ... even though some species are known, in the marketplace, to be entirely, or almost entirely, made up of WC individuals.

However, you (OP) also did this poor Uro gal a huge disservice.
She was not monitored very well, was not quarantined, and was, basically, neglected (esp. her health/condition, to the point that it was too late to save her) ... even if living conditions (temps, etc.) were appropriate, or spot on, for the species.

In this case, with the time that has gone by (and where you lacked), I do not feel the Kicks owe you anything. Although it would be nice to offer you something. Which, from what you wrote, I guess they did offer something ... even if not as much as may have been hoped for.

Hopefully, you will have learned from your mistakes.
Also, that, whenever possible, check on the reputation, of a seller, prior to purchase ... especially where time is not of the essence due to an animal being rather common in the hobby/marketplace.

~~~~

 

[Helenthereef]

. (You should test your other animals now)

Whatever the ins and out of the case, if it was due to parasites, I would certainly be testing the other 2 animals now in case they picked said parasites up during their time caged together. Hope they are OK.

 

[Pasodama]

And the ones that didn't make it in the beginning was because the seller sold us a sick animal. We have brought the sick ones to "reptile" vets before here on Long Island (Monaco, Hoefer, Freilicher, Rose Brothers, etc.), regardless of what stage their illness was at and they were ALL unsuccessful in saving them every time, so we're not a fan of vets.

Yes, it is true that some ill, or injured, animals perish despite all the best care in the world ... regardless if a vet is involved.
However, there are many success stories as well.

Also, it can be very critical to catch a problem early on and for that animal to receive the care it needs asap.

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[Pasodama]

Whatever the ins and out of the case, if it was due to parasites, I would certainly be testing the other 2 animals now in case they picked said parasites up during their time caged together. Hope they are OK.

Also, not only can an ill, or parasite loaded, animal affect other cage mates, the ill animal can worsen faster via the further stress it feels when caged with others.

~~~~

 

[AndyUltimateReptiles]

Also, not only can an ill, or parasite loaded, animal affect other cage mates, the ill animal can worsen faster via the further stress it feels when caged with others.

~~~~

Especially with lizards. Intimidation even if the animals aren't picking on each other physically can play a huge role. I also noticed in an earlier post that the basking temp was only 110? I never lose uros, even WC, and my basking spots are much higher.

Either way, admitting you don't check on the animals often and don't quarantine animals that you know are WC imports won't help the position. If the animal was sold as an import in whatever condition it is in, you have to take due diligence in either asking if the animal was treated and for what, or just proactively do it yourself. In a perfect world, every animal would be treated before being sold, but unless its listed as treated and is WC, have to assume it isn't.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[Chris Kennard]

We're here to warn the public that Fred Kick is selling sick animals. In our decades of experience, 95% of the pets we've purchased never needed to be quarantined in their own enclosure or brought to a vet and most of them have lived for 12-15 years. And the ones that didn't make it in the beginning was because the seller sold us a sick animal. We have brought the sick ones to "reptile" vets before here on Long Island (Monaco, Hoefer, Freilicher, Rose Brothers, etc.), regardless of what stage their illness was at and they were ALL unsuccessful in saving them every time, so we're not a fan of vets. In fact try this experiment: Go to a reptile show and ask all the consumers if they first quarantine their new pets in a completely separate enclosure and/or bring them to a vet and you'll find that the majority does not and their pets have lived a healthy long time. We realize this web site is full of perfectionists, so we couldn't really care less about your opinions. Good luck buying a pet from Kicks Balls and let us know if it lives!

I highly doubt you'll get any sales from anyone viewing your posts here.