BIG can o worms!!! - Robert Bruce

[Wolfy-hound]

My god what a beautiful snake. I'd forgotten how gorgeous they are
Wolfy

 

[thesnakeman]

Now that's what I'm talking about! I love it! People beginning to pay attention, and speak up.

Wolfy,
if you live in Florida, you probably will never know how it feels to work with these animals in a captive setting. And I feel sorry for that. And you'll probably never know how it feels to put forth all the effort I have, in one direction, while someone else tries to take the captive gene pool in the exact opposite direction.

Desert Herper,
Sorry you are turned off. That's not what I'm trying to do.

As far as me being compared to Hitler, well I fail to see the connection. All I'm really trying to do is to get folks to wake up and smell the coffee. The indigo captive gene pool is something which none of us should be allowed to screw up. Period. You sound like I'm controlling other peoples collections. I'm not. I'm just on a soap box, preaching what I believe to be true. I do not have the ability to "force" my views on anyone. Egotistical, maybe. Fanatical, maybe. But we still have to wake up, and smell the coffee.

When all the indigos are gone from the wild, what will be left of them? All we will have is what is in captivity. We won't get another chance. And I believe that between global warming, and relentless human pressure on their habitat,...sooner or later they will be gone. That's why I keep preaching that we cannot screw this up. Nor can we allow each other to screw this up. And the only real tool we have, at this time, for that job is peer pressure. And this is the only place where I am allowed to apply that pressure. We must keep in mind that this species is endangered. That makes this situation urgent, and unique when compared to other snake species, and their captive breeders. You simply can't look at it the same as any other species.

Let me clarify my views on commerce, and commercialism where it concerns the indigo. These snakes are difficult, and expensive to maintain, and propagate in captivity. To think folks should not be allowed to make a buck, or to recover what they have invested would be absurd. Personally, I'm a disabled vet on a fixed income who sold his house to work with this species. You bet I need to earn something! But I am not trying to change the genetics of an endangered species, and then rationalize those changes with science, so that I can create an indigo which is no longer recognizable as an indigo, so the government won't have any say so over it. Or so that I can sell the first "snow indigo" for a million bucks. But someone is,... and we know who that is. It's fine to make a buck. Just don't go changing this species into something else so you can get rich! That's all I'm saying about that.

And I recognize that there will be some inbreeding which takes place inadvertently both in the wild, and in captivity. Stuff happens. What I am saying is that this species is unique, and it's continued existence is precarious at best. Therefore each of us must do everything possible to keep it as real as possible.

The work has not been done. We do not know enough to fully ascertain the future feasibility of indigo wild releases. Some releases have been done, by Dr. Dan Speake, but the follow up work to see what happened to those releases has not been done. And there is a tremendous amount of stuff that we simply do not know about this species. It would be nice to find out all that stuff BEFORE we screw up the captive gene pool beyond repare, now wouldn't it. That way we would know what we have to work with, and wether or not it will be possible. Right now, we don't know. And we have someone actively seeking to ignore that, and create something which is no longer the same as it's wild cousins. If this were the Panda, or the Bald Eagle, or some such thing, there would be no debate. There would only be outrage, and it would be stopped somehow, someway. The influx of wild DNA into the captive gene pool is too low, and the difficulty of reproducing these animals in captivity is too high. Therefore we must do everything right. That is what I am trying to get him and others to realize, and accept. If he were working with a species which is not in danger, I couldn't care less what he did. But this guy is working with something special, unique, and endangered. So excuse me if I offend anyone while he continues down that path.
T.

 

[Wilomn]

For the record, while I did bring up goosestepping, I in no way was referring to hitler.

I was referring to the way Tony seems to want everyone to march in lock-step in regards to Indigos.

I was just tying to let you know, Tony, that you are coming on REALLY strong and you may be putting off folks who might be more willing to listen to someone a tad less zealous.

That and I don't like being spoken for and your constant use of "we" when referring to Indigo keepers was beginning to annoy me.

I am fully capable of speaking for myself and do not as a rule follow blindly along just because someone assumes I am going to.

 

[Wilomn]

My god what a beautiful snake. I'd forgotten how gorgeous they are
Wolfy

That's acutually a lousy shot, I'm a terrible photographer.

She had just eaten. When she's just a tad slimmer, she is even darker, more lustrous.

Truly a bitchin snake.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

You mean in Florida I am not allowed to keep Indigos at all? Bummer. I hadn't looked into it, but had been thinking of acquiring some to display in my shop so I could educate. I'll still put up information, it's on that 'list of things to do'.
I probaly should not have used Hitler as a example, but on short notice and short sleep I couldn't come up with any other dictatorship right off that also referanced goose-stepping. Goosestepping is associated with the Nazi army and the rigid discipline and unrelenting insistance on ONE way, the ONLY way.
I apoligize that that statement was taken that way, and rest assured it is NOT meant that way. As I said, NOT calling anyone a nazi, just pointing out how rigidly blindly insistant someone can be.
Tony, your latest post is os much more leninant and reasonable. The arguments are valid, but you still can't insist that everyone scream bloody brutal murder because someone is doing something that you don't like.
Tigers are endangered(HIGHLY) in the wild, but are being kept in captivity successfully(as are indigos) and people are delibritely breeding morphs(i.e. white) ones also. The white ones attract attention, which is then directed at the problems associated with the habitat destruction, poaching and other concerns about the WILD populations.
I understand that the Indigo is endangered, I've heard that for years here in Florida. Let him produce morphs if he can, concentrate on diversifieing YOUR gene pool. If you talk with him, he might be willing to designate which of his personal lines are not being bred for morphs or line bred or inbred. You could add bloodlines to your stock,as could all other breeders. Screaming that he is evil and should be stopped is not the way to reason with anyone. It only makes everyone else edge away from you in distaste.
I'd love to get more information, particularly a info sheet to post in my shop so more people can understand the plight. I've told many people about how the gopher tortoise was killed by people pouring gasoline down burrows trying to eradicate rattlesnakes. (Which I also love and admire, albeit from a further distance)
Arguning, and stating an opinion, and giving reasons why people should breed a certain way is really cool. Posting a total rant attacking someone in a way that makes it obvious you would LOVE to declare how they can and cannot deal with their own collection is a huge turnoff.
Take the high road and try to appear like the more intelligent reasonable one. It's called PR, and will boost your cause considerably.
Is there a place here to see more pictures of indigos? Gawd they are so beautiful, and is it just me or do they really seem to resemble a cobra in the head? No hood of course, but they remind me of a cobra just hanging out.
Wolfy

 

[Wilomn]

You mean in Florida I am not allowed to keep Indigos at all? Bummer. I hadn't looked into it, but had been thinking of acquiring some to display in my shop so I could educate. I'll still put up information, it's on that 'list of things to do'.
I probaly should not have used Hitler as a example, but on short notice and short sleep I couldn't come up with any other dictatorship right off that also referanced goose-stepping. Goosestepping is associated with the Nazi army and the rigid discipline and unrelenting insistance on ONE way, the ONLY way.
I apoligize that that statement was taken that way, and rest assured it is NOT meant that way. As I said, NOT calling anyone a nazi, just pointing out how rigidly blindly insistant someone can be.
Tony, your latest post is os much more leninant and reasonable. The arguments are valid, but you still can't insist that everyone scream bloody brutal murder because someone is doing something that you don't like.
Tigers are endangered(HIGHLY) in the wild, but are being kept in captivity successfully(as are indigos) and people are delibritely breeding morphs(i.e. white) ones also. The white ones attract attention, which is then directed at the problems associated with the habitat destruction, poaching and other concerns about the WILD populations.
I understand that the Indigo is endangered, I've heard that for years here in Florida. Let him produce morphs if he can, concentrate on diversifieing YOUR gene pool. If you talk with him, he might be willing to designate which of his personal lines are not being bred for morphs or line bred or inbred. You could add bloodlines to your stock,as could all other breeders. Screaming that he is evil and should be stopped is not the way to reason with anyone. It only makes everyone else edge away from you in distaste.
I'd love to get more information, particularly a info sheet to post in my shop so more people can understand the plight. I've told many people about how the gopher tortoise was killed by people pouring gasoline down burrows trying to eradicate rattlesnakes. (Which I also love and admire, albeit from a further distance)
Arguning, and stating an opinion, and giving reasons why people should breed a certain way is really cool. Posting a total rant attacking someone in a way that makes it obvious you would LOVE to declare how they can and cannot deal with their own collection is a huge turnoff.
Take the high road and try to appear like the more intelligent reasonable one. It's called PR, and will boost your cause considerably.
Is there a place here to see more pictures of indigos? Gawd they are so beautiful, and is it just me or do they really seem to resemble a cobra in the head? No hood of course, but they remind me of a cobra just hanging out.
Wolfy

Daaaaaaaamn woman, well said.

 

[isoglut]

Red throat crossed with a pure black Eastern Indigo?

What would the result be of red throat crossed with a pure black Eastern Indigo? Would color be any indication of unrelated snake? Obviously, recessive genetics are more likely to be expressed with inbreed populations, and some expression can be deleterious to the snake in one way or another. Is this potentially why some Eastern Indigos have some bumps on the tail? Should these snakes be eliminated from the gene pool (kept as pets only)? Lastly - where can I get a pair of unrelated Eastern Indigos?

 

[keepergale]

Man you rescued a old thread here.
You can get red throat and black throat babies from the same clutch. In fact
you usually do. I have bred rt to rt,rt to bt and bt to bt. All pairings have produced a mix of hatchlings.
I think the consensus is that the vertebral bump is "usually" a temperature spike in the incubation process.
As a group I think the Drymarchon breeders are more concerned with the genetics of their animals than most breeders of other genera.

 

[lovin2act]

Yeah every breeder I have spoken with indicated that it (tail kinks) is an incubation temp issue, not inbreeding. I have one, and he came from flawless siblings and unrelated parents. You can see his little flaw in the pic here. The breeder thinks his egg simply just didn't get the same perfect temps like the rest of the bunch. Have had this boy a year now and he is doing terrific! Has grown about 2 feet in eleven months.

 

[isoglut]

Beauty

Where did you get that beauty? Would you recommend a breader? I have 7 month old male and feeding every 5 days. Just moved into larger mice from fuzzies to hoppers. I do not want to power feed, just a reasonable amount. It takes about 2-3 minutes to eat the pre-killed mouse at this point.

 

[lovin2act]

Where did you get that beauty? Would you recommend a breader? I have 7 month old male and feeding every 5 days. Just moved into larger mice from fuzzies to hoppers. I do not want to power feed, just a reasonable amount. It takes about 2-3 minutes to eat the pre-killed mouse at this point.

I got him from Robert Harper at http://userpent.net/Drymarchon.html

I would definitely recommend him if you are looking! In fact he has an ad for one right now http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=910290 for a great price!!! If I needed a male I would be all over that!

His user name on here is herbivorous and he has some ads up in here for other dry's as well.

I feed my guy every Monday and Thursday right now, ever since he came to me. Not giant meals just small and steady is all. He has grown like a weed for me and I avoid over stuffing him. He usually has defecated out his last meal before I feed him each time so I know he is typically ready for it. I too am avoiding power feeds. He is on jumbo mice right now and will be ready for small rats real soon. Only thing is that he doesn't like rats, so we will have to work through that little issue ha!


Post some pics of your lady if you get a chance sometime

 

[Johnny]

Sorry, I just had to chime in Getting back to the original topic. Although I respect Robert Bruce with all his Eastern Indigo breeding successes over the decades, I think he did irreparable damage to the captive population by stating what he did back then. Drymarchon in my opinion is one of the least tolerant genus to inbreeding/line breeding. Flip your Indigos over and see how many split scales anterior to the vent there are. I would bet over three quarters of the captive population of Eastern Indigos has aberrancies. Another indication would be the ruffled look of the scales of the tails of captive produced specimens. All initial signs of line breeding/in breeding. After being schooled by the East Coast Cribo Master on Drymarchon husbandry/breeding, it left a bitter taste in my mouth. Thankfully these days, Mr. Bruce is saying exactly the opposite of what he stated back then. I personally am trying to trace the stock of captive Eastern Indigos back to their origins and can come up with only several lines/founder animals. This is what I got after researching the different lines of Indigos in the hobby today. I'm NOT trying to call anyone out here. I apologize if I'm wrong and please correct me as I would love to know if there are any mistakes below. If you know any more information or are breeding indigos, please add on!

EBV/Huffaker=Seib=Binnig=Carmichael, Harper= Bruce x Seib, Smith=Bruce, Herrick=Seib x Bruce, Takata (don't know how many/who's lines he has), Allesandrini (many founder animals came from his line), Bruce (God knows! But it would be nice if he reveals how many exact lineages he has), Kruse (origins from the Bronx Zoo, don't know if there are any pure Kruse lines left), Fuller (many lines including Allesandrini/Kruse amongst others).

 

[lovin2act]

Does the split scales affect life longevity or long term health? What are the drawbacks apart from the obvious that it doesn't look perfect? Mr. Herrick said that my guy is the product of a Frevola/Allesandrini breeding. I am no Dry scholar so I dont know if that is good or bad per say, but I am curious about what the split scales really mean to the life and health of the individual animals long term health and lifespan, if any.

 

[Johnny]

I don't think the split scales are detrimental to the snake BUT it is a sign of inbreeding=line breeding. Common signs of inbreeding that the buyer usually does not see are hatchlings that are considerably smaller and less robust than out bred specimens and there have been several accounts of inbred specimens dying for no reason in their 3-4th year of life. Upon necropsy, it was shown that the animal's hearts were enlarged. No infectious agents were identified and it looked very similar to congestive heart failure in humans. I'm not trying to knock anyone's animals with split scales. Just trying to help the community identify visible signs of inbreeding. The people I know who had these animals were crushed after rearing up what seemed like healthy 3-4 year old indigos and having them just expire for no reason.

 

[lovin2act]

Wow yeah that would be a heart break for sure to lose one so early. Hopefully it is a very rare occurrence.

 

[TheVikinG]

I got mine from Bruce last year he said that one of the parents was a wild caught species. My male is a July 2011 i feed him once a week and he's about 2.5feet long and he was the first of the group to start taking food. Is that small or normal size for them at around this time, or whats a normal size for yearling? I dont want a runt, but I'd still love 'em!! Another question, is feeding an Indigo's better once a week or multiple times best for the animal? Are split scales normally all over or more towards the rear of the animal?

 

[lovin2act]

I got mine from Bruce last year he said that one of the parents was a wild caught species. My male is a July 2011 i feed him once a week and he's about 2.5feet long and he was the first of the group to start taking food. Is that small or normal size for them at around this time, or whats a normal size for yearling? I dont want a runt, but I'd still love 'em!! Another question, is feeding an Indigo's better once a week or multiple times best for the animal? Are split scales normally all over or more towards the rear of the animal?

I am no expert but from the research I have done in the past I would say that your fellow is growing at a pretty decent pace. Mine is almost right at 4 feet now and was born in August of '10, so he is basically a year older than yours. I have heard of breeders having some up to 5 feet by a year of age, but that's with a lot of meals I bet. Not super sure though. I think we are holding par here so don't fret it. I would say though that you should probably bump up the meals for your guy to at least twice a week. Not huge meals though, just a decent size prey item is all that doesn't make a big old belly bulge. Smaller more frequent meals is much more the recommendation I have been advised to do with these guys. Especially when they are young. Adults you can slow down with, but hatchling to adulthood they should be fed more often. Go to that link I posted above (http://userpent.net/Drymarchon.html) and read the care sheet and info that the breeder of mine has posted on his site. Lots of good info there. As far as the split scale thing, from what I know it's mostly down towards the vent, so yeah just the the rear and not the whole belly. Post some pics or your guy on here if you can too

 

[indigos-r-us]

The genetic issues with the eastern indigos are discussed to great lengths. Even though it is prohibited to take new blood from the wild so to speak, who would put it in writing?

As a legal approach I obtained some European eastern indigos by way of a research permit we utilized for a publication on feeding behaviors. Even though the easterns in Europe are in-bred for the last 25+ years there are a few documentable "wild caught specimens" introduced. My point I will breed the european animals to the US individuals I have from several supposed maternal lines and "hopefully" introduce some new blood that way. I figured it was worth a shot since the 2 populations originated from different stock. Europeans seem to have purchased and "kept" easterns long before the US herpers became interested actually began to breed them. It's a mystery.


Bill Lamoreaux

 

[indigos-r-us]

Wow, I just read the post about Robert Bruce having a "wild caught" breeding specimen. Personally I would never let that be known or posted. USFW is monitoring the forums on Kingsnake and probably here. Mainly for people threatening to release big pythons etc. Not smart to admit you are illegal when a felony conviction could sink you and your family.

Bill Lamoreaux
All opinions are solely mine. I do not want a bunch of posts slamming me for just my opinion. Thanks for your consideration.

 

[TheVikinG]

He told me in such a broad generality, that it could have been a descendant of a wild caught species that he obtained many years ago--I'm not sure.