Caramel vs Ultramels?

[Dale Porcher DVM]

I purchased my first Caramel 3 years ago and there was plenty of talk about Caramels and kinking but nothing at least that I read on open forums about Caramel and fertility issues. The price on Caramels was several thousand dollars for either a male or female.In 2011 my Caramel female laid 9 slugs and 1 boob egg which was fertile but went bad during incubation.I had her hot spot at 85 degrees F just to test the temperature theory. Now since the fertility or productivity of female Caramels is out there, prices have dropped and Ultramels are enjoying an enormous popularity. The talk is that they don't kink and look better. My question is have they been around long enough to know if in fact that kinking won't be an issue and does anyone have pictures of Ultramel females on viable eggs.
Last year unwilling to give up on my Caramel project I purchased a Caramel female from Joe Ellis. I thought, if she looks 1/2 as good as the advertised picture, I'll be happy. Fast foward to now, she pounds small rats every week, weighs over 1800 grams and in my opinion looks as good as any Ultramel that I've seen in person. Would love to see any pics of female Ultramels on viable eggs before I put this project to bed. Thanks and sorry for the long winded post, Dale Porcher DVM

 

[blackfriday.tyler.]

very beautiful! cant help you with the ultramels tho! good luck!!

 

[Robert Walker]

Dale,

Out of curiosity, what was your Caramel x ? breeding that produced 9 slugs and a boob?

Sent you a PM also.
Robert

 

[Dale Porcher DVM]

Caramel vs Ultramel

Two years ago, I paired her with my high white Pied male but nothing. This year, 2011, I paired her with my Black Pastel 100% het Pied male because his father, the high white Pied, was not interested. She had a huge ovulation, but nuthin! Ultramels look enough like the Caramels to make me very wary about plopping down lots of $$ at least on a female before I see multiple pics of adult females on viable eggs.

 

[Robert Walker]

"In 2011 my Caramel female laid 9 slugs and 1 boob egg"

"This year, 2011, I paired her with my Black Pastel 100% het Pied...She had a huge ovulation, but nuthin!"

So as I try to figure out the timing, is the Black Pastel 100% het Pied the father to the 9 slugs and 1 boob?


Where my curiosity lays is when she slugged out, was she breed to a:

1. Visual Caramel
2. Het. Caramel
3. Some other recessive
4. Dom/Codom
5. Dom/Codom Het. Caramel

??? - Thanks!

By the way that is a HUGE ovulation or bad gas!

 

[Dale Porcher DVM]

Caramel

The Black Pastel 100% Het Pied was the sire to be. I jokingly say that I wanted to capture all the dreaded traits in 1 snake in making the The Caramel Panda Pied, duck billing, kinking, poor eating habits and poor productivity. My Pieds eat and reproduce well, just hoping to find a Caramel female that does the same as I am a firm believer in starting with good genetics. Joe Ellis who I got the very pretty Caramel female from earlier this year just emailed me and told me the key to getting female Caramels to lay good eggs is to get them old and large. I'm not giving up on this project, so we'll see.

 

[Matt2979]

Joe Ellis who I got the very pretty Caramel female from earlier this year just emailed me and told me the key to getting female Caramels to lay good eggs is to get them old and large. I'm not giving up on this project, so we'll see.

That's good to hear, as I don't plan on giving up on my caramel projects. But I've gone a different route, getting only females that are either ghost het caramel or DH's (my biggest reason for going with caramels is to produce caramel glows).

I figured that if I produced female caramels, I would just sell them cheaper than I originally planned, hoping to entice someone to get a gorgeous pet. Now I think I'll just keep them (female caramels) and sit on them for a few years to see what happens.

That's a beautiful girl that you've got, by the way!

 

[Robert Walker]

Don't give up on the project!

I too bred my Caramel to a Pied.
I just checked my records. She was at the 1675g average when she was breeding. I don't know her age as I acquired her at the 1000g range. She put on the 600-700g in the four months that I had her, and then she bred.

After she laid, she weighed 1416g, so she didn't lose as much weight as other females I have do. Other females usually lose about 1/4-1/3 their weight.

Her eggs were small as you can see against the quarter. 4 laid, one died in the incubator with half developed baby. She did in addition have 3 slugs.

I now fully believe that if she had more weight, things would be even better.

Long story short, it worked and now I am raising up Double Het. Caramel Pieds

Don't give up! Caramels are wonderful looking BPs.

People can look at my above story and go "see Caramels do suck, he got 3 slugs and one dead egg". What they are missing in the story is that yes, that is true, but I did in fact get 3 healthy babies out of the breeding. I have plenty of other morph females that bred and didn't produce ANYTHING for me at all. So to me the odds of Caramels are just as good as the odds of something else producing as well IMO.

 

[Dale Porcher DVM]

Caramels

I also am going to try and change up slightly my method of attack. Prior to Joe Ellis telling me his tidbit, several other large breeders, BHB, Chun at Dynasty and a few others said, some Caramel females produce, some don't. So to increase my odds, I now have 3 visual Caramel females and am trading for a proven Het female and another visual female and I assure you that if I get a visual Caramel female that lays a nice 8-10 egg clutch, she will be my foundation stock for all of my Caramel Pied projects. If that fails, I'll buy the best looking proven Caramel male that I can find and put him on some Pied females.More than 1 way to skin the proverbial snake.

 

[Dale Porcher DVM]

I'm jealous

Congrats, I would have been happy with 3 good eggs as long as I got at least 1 female out of it. The pic that I posted of breeding is my Black Pastel Het Pied who just happens to have a nice ringer, here is the pic of her the year prior with my Pied( someone asked).

 

[mgoblue347]

I am just in the beginnings of the caramel project and despite some people advising me against it, I decided caramels were just too beautiful to withstand. One thing I did decide was that I would never purchase a female caramel and just work with male caramels and female visual het caramel. If you have the female pieds, why not get the proven male caramel now? Keep working on your female caramel project, but at the same time have your male breed the pieds so at least you get something.

Beautiful snakes btw.

Good luck!

 

[RoyalPythonPros]

Could anyone tell me the way to tell the difference between the Caramel Albino and an Ultramel? When I bought mine it was represented as a Caramel but have had multiple comments that it looks like an ultramel. Everything I read says the difference is the kinking and breeding problems with the Caramels, yet my girl has no kinks and hasn't been bred yet.

 

[Dale Porcher DVM]

Caramel vs Ultramel

How much did you pay for it? If you paid $500 or less you can be assured that no one with an Ultramel would make that mistake. There are some Caramels that look fantastic, some look Blah, I'm sure that you got the former.

 

[RoyalPythonPros]

This is her. But that's the reason I asked. It can't be ONLY based on price or someone could just say it was one or the other. She's an amazing looking girl.

 

[coldbloodaddict]

Since the thread was dragged back up, how's your Caramel project going?

I got 2 clutches from a Caramel female in 08 and 09 that were pretty much worthless...One had 2 good eggs that hatched 2 Normals (Hets) ...LOL...The other clutch was all slugs...

Pics at this link...
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?97334-My-Caramel-Female-Laid

Between the kinking and the females having major fertility issues
I bailed on the Caramel project in 2009...

I have since stocked up Ultramel stuff!!!

 

[ClarkT]

Has anyone found out if the caramel is compatible with ultramel? I've heard rumors that ultramels have some kinking issues, too.

 

[FireStorm]

This is her. But that's the reason I asked. It can't be ONLY based on price or someone could just say it was one or the other. She's an amazing looking girl.

From what I have seen (limited- I don't have Ultramels) there is a difference in the background color. I think if you look at both morphs on WOBP you will see what I mean. The two are incompatible (Caramel x Ultramel = double hets), so if you bought her as a Caramel you can't really market her or her offspring as Ultramels unless you breed her to an Ultramel and prove her out. There are plenty of Caramels without kinks, so that isn't definitive.

 

[Dale Porcher DVM]

I personally have had two clutches of slugs with the same Caramel female but have chosen to go forward anyway. Last year I produced 6.4 100% Het Pied, 50% Het Caramels from a Pied breeding to a 100% Het Caramel female.i took all of my males to the local pet shop, but kept back all of the girls. This year I'm still hoping to produce double Hets from a Pied to my new Caramel female. So far people have said that they have had no kinks with this snakes relatives. I'm just hoping that she lays nice big fertile eggs. My new large female Caramel is still probably the nicest adult color wise that I've ever seen.
I have heard rumors about Ultramels and that is the reason that I didn't bail and go jump in the Ultramels full tilt. I'll post a current pic of my female, she's around 3000 grams. I took my Ultramel money and bought a pure Candy male.

 

[Dale Porcher DVM]

My Caramel girl today

This picture was in my snake room today,no flash and fairly accurately depicts her real color. Like everyone says, she may look better in real life, because she's a living breathing creature and not a 2 dimensional picture, but the picture is close. Because the history of this female was unclear, I showed Amir a picture, hoping that he would see something , and he told me right away Caramel as Ultramels don't have blushing? His words, not mine. Anyway, hoping that this girl is gravid to a High White Pied male.

 

[RoyalPythonPros]

Well I just actually traded the girl a couple days ago towards something that will fit into a project I'm working on. I never attempted to breed her so I hope the guy who has her now has some luck because he's got a bunch of caramels he's trying to breed. I still have two double het females I'm pretty positive will be laying eggs soon, they're both in pre lay shed right now and I have the potential to pop out more caramels from them. Guess I'll find out around the beginning of August.