Chicago Reptile House sells sick Ball Python

[A_Kendergirl]

You're right, I wasn't planning on getting a refund or replacement. I already had my husband saying "I told you so". I had an iffy feeling that I ignored, and I was living with my mistake. Finding two types of worms in what I was told was captive bred really set me off, and the rest is history.

As for the vet visits, it hadn't occurred to me to have the store pay. Again, I was feeling pretty dumb for going to a store instead of going to a breeder. I wasn't about to wait for anyone to authorize me to go to the vet. He needed help, and got it.

 

[hhmoore]

Just a few comments regarding the signs:

No Returns. No Refunds. Choose your animal carefully

Having been involved with a petshop, and seen similar signs in many others, it is MY feeling that they do not ordinarily pertain to an animal that is found to be sick (unless the problem is due to after purchase husbandry). They are, instead, more directed to the impulse or poorly planned purchases that are returned for a host of reasons - including: my mom (girl/boyfriend, husband/wife, landlord) won't let me have it, it doesn't do anything but sit there, it bit me, I bought if for my son & he doesn't like it, I decided I want to buy a video game instead....you get the picture.

IMO, Shanti, instead of (or in addition to) posting all your questions/concerns on internet forums, you should have been speaking to the place that sold you the snake. Regardless of that, I also agree that you should have made an effort to resolve the issue with the seller prior to posting on the BOI...who knows, you might have had very different things to say.

Brian - I certainly understand how you felt being "blindsided" by this post...but perhaps a bit less of a hard stand could be taken. Personally, I think I will need to review some of Shanti's earlier threads to decide how much of the problem may lie with her initial husbandry. The mites and worms, though, are likely yours...and therefore a good place to begin any discussions

 

[hhmoore]

Oh, and as for the comments about the mites...I have purchased $1000 animals and found mites on them. I've never been happy about it, but when honestly, if you have a lot of animals coming and going it happens...even if you routinely treat everything that comes in. And for the record, even CB babies can have worms.
However, there is a difference between imported, CH, and CB. I don't know if Shanti would have purchased a CH baby or not...at this point, I'm not sure it matters all that much. But if you (Brian) were selling 150-250g (sorry, I don't recall the actual weight)CH babies as CB - you were misrepresenting them. You can't use the public's lack of knowledge agains them.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

I was made aware of this situation in chat about 3 days ago, I offered to email Brain because not only do I consider him a friend, but also one of the good guys in the industry.

September is a hellish month for the boyz from Chicago, the are here in Cali putting together the best show on the West Coast. Having worked in a shop a long time ago myself there is sometimes the attitude of "while the boss is away, the kids will play", I'm not at all saying that is what happended, I've never been to Chicago. But I do know Brian, and he would have fixed any problem that was personally addressed to him.

Brian has moved heaven and earth to accommodate me and I'm willing to bet, that he would help anyone who would personally asked him.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Alex, I think we agree on many things ..

And Shanti has addressed much of your issues. You raise a hypothetical, and for reference, here is a chunk of your post:

Lets say that Shanti didnt bring this problem to Brian because of those signs posted in his store and felt that she would get no resolve because of those signs, how many of us would approve a vet visit and re-imburse the vet bills if we didnt even know there was a problem to begin with? she didnt go back to the store until after she had already taken the animal to the vet twice. My guess is she wasnt planning to get a refund, replacement, or store credit anyway.

I believe most people in the "business" of reptiles, require their customers to notify them of any problems prior to a refund, replacement, authorization of a vet visit or any kind of intervention

My view on your question " ....how many of us would approve a vet visit and reimburse the vet bills if we didn't even know there was a problem to begin with?" Speaking for myself, I would not. Outside of my TOS, any other obligation on my part would absolutely require my approval, and that is pretty much a universally held legal standard.

I am a little bit confused by the latter part of your statement, as again speaking for myself, I would be completely in the dark about issuing any refund, replacement, etc, in accordance with my TOS if someone didn't bring it to my attention. I have TOS in my website though. They allow for satisfaction guarantees, live arrival, etc. If they said "No refunds ... no returns .... buyer beware, cause once you buy it ... see ya" (I know, a few liberties taken) then what grounds would I have to be so surprised (aka blind-sided) by someone who took me at my word, and then came to the BOI and said "They sold me a sick animal, and the sign says tough luck!" I absolutely have a thread here, from about two years ago, where I had many good reasons to feel blind-sided, as I mentioned in an earlier post. I gave the thread starter some hell about it (it was about 10 days after they had posted their complete satisfaction with the order .. then things took a bad turn), then ponied up replacements on about $500 worth of animals. Why, because regardless of the culpability of the thread starter, some was mine !! I say it all because I unequivocally practice what I preach here. With his signs, Brian bears a large portion of the responsibility for the way things played out. Any suggestion that Shanti needed to read between the lines, and see that the signs were for "the idiots" (Brian's words ... luv ya anyway too Laura) would have been nice had it happened, but does not shift responsibility off Brian. Not that it matters, but FYI, I think that the maximum responsibility for Brian is the purchase price of the animal, and possibly less.

Brian can choose to stick by his guns all he wants. The ball is tee'd up, and he has a chance to hit it out of the ballpark. If he wants to whiff ..... I won't stop him! I also have no doubt that he is a good guy. But we all make mistakes, and sometimes discretion is the better part of valor, n'est pas ?

 

[Gecko_Den]

Honestly Shanti, why don't you let this post rest for a day, CALL Brian tomorrow, TALK to him, on the phone, not on the BOI. Dollars to donuts I bet you guys can work something out. A little communication between the two of you in private would probably go a lot further than hashing it out here in public, inviting comment from everyone else, myself included
If you guys can't come to a reasonable agreement, then come back and post it here. One on One communication, where you can actually interact with each other, can go a long way towards making things right. I have met Brian a couple times, at Daytona and the Philly show, he is a decent guy, as many others have mentioned in this thread. Give him a chance, and Brian may just surprise you.

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Honestly Shanti, why don't you let this post rest for a day, CALL Brian tomorrow, TALK to him, on the phone, not on the BOI. Dollars to donuts I bet you guys can work something out. A little communication between the two of you in private would probably go a lot further than hashing it out here in public, inviting comment from everyone else, myself included
If you guys can't come to a reasonable agreement, then come back and post it here. One on One communication, where you can actually interact with each other, can go a long way towards making things right. I have met Brian a couple times, at Daytona and the Philly show, he is a decent guy, as many others have mentioned in this thread. Give him a chance, and Brian may just surprise you.

Sounds like a fine idea.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Honestly Shanti, why don't you let this post rest for a day, CALL Brian tomorrow, TALK to him, on the phone, not on the BOI. Dollars to donuts I bet you guys can work something out. A little communication between the two of you in private would probably go a lot further than hashing it out here in public, inviting comment from everyone else, myself included
If you guys can't come to a reasonable agreement, then come back and post it here. One on One communication, where you can actually interact with each other, can go a long way towards making things right. I have met Brian a couple times, at Daytona and the Philly show, he is a decent guy, as many others have mentioned in this thread. Give him a chance, and Brian may just surprise you.

Excelent post Sam!

You must spread some karma around before giving it to Gecko_Den again.

Regards.

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Great news for anyone interested in knowing how Spot is doing...

He has finished the last of his antibiotics, and he ate 2 F/T fuzzy mice! He's well on his way to recovery now that we passed that hurdle.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Good news to hear ..... Spot is a lucky snake ! BTW, my snakes bark and my dog hisses too ! Glad I'm not the only one !

 

[lds2]

Jim,

Don't doubt or question my sincerity when it comes to the statements made regarding the Chicago Reptile House. Brian stood up and took responsibility for the mite issue. I do however question how Shanti did observe the mites when she was holding or examinig the ball python in her hand. It would seem to me that if it were truly infested, mites would have come off in her hand and or been easily noticeable.

Brian does have different grades of ball pythons in his store from $49.99 and up. An experienced reptile keeper would think to ask what is the difference between a $49.99 ball python and a $79.99 ball python.

Does it concern anyone that Shanti states she raised the temp to 85/95 when she noticed a problem. It sounds as if she was keeping the ball python to cool to begin with, and who in the world would use a night drop to 75 degrees with a baby ball python who had just eaten a mouse.

It seems, Jim that you are very quick to want to assess all the Blame to Brian. There is fault here on both sides, the problem is, Brian is the only one who has stepped up and accepted responsibility. Shanti had an obligation to mitigate her damages if any and she failed to do the same.

I am not familiar with you or business, but I have spoke to others in Florida who are. Brian is truly one of the good guys in the business and has shown that in his response to this unfortunate thread. Instead of rushing to judgement, a thorough examination of the facts should be made.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Larry, I have no doubt that Brian is a good guy in many of his business dealings.

Among many things that I have said here, you will find that in my posts. I also disagree with many of your characterizatons in the last post. Not completely, but feel that you took a few convenient liberties. I am very content to just agree to disagree with you on those, for I do not see them as materially relevent. Two things do concern me enough to respond to though:

Here is one that I am a bit stuck on:

An experienced reptile keeper would think to ask what is the difference between a $49.99 ball python and a $79.99 ball python.

My question(s) is this: What of the inexperienced reptile keeper who walks in the store? Has the discussion with the employee as Shanti did? And is Shanti's claim of lesser merit,even though she readily admits she is not a snake person, because she has experience with other reptiles?

An secondly:

Shanti had an obligation to mitigate her damages if any and she failed to do the same.

I call the receipts and time spent mitigation.

Does Brian have any obligations here? Thanks.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Does Brian have any obligations here?

I do not think Brian has any obligations here. But this is my opinion. He can if he chooses, do what ever he thinks appropriate I am sure you have an opinion also, very well represented I might add.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Casey,

You are absolutely right here:

He can if he chooses, do what ever he thinks appropriate

I can't speak for Shanti, but my guess is that $50 or so fixes this. I am not recommending that anyone "sell" their principals, although in business compromises are part of the game. Brian stated his reasons, his "principal", and while some of us disagree with his decision, some of us also disagree with his principal. We all live with what we say here, and while I imagine some positions taken by me have gained me business, some have inevitably worked against me.

I draw no ill conclusions about Brian or his business ethics here other than to disagree with how this incident has been handled so far, and to discuss the various effects of signage, etc, which are good fodder for anyone with a store. I have owned restaurants, am loaded with retail experience, and learned a few hard lessons along the way. But beyond Brian or Shanti, there is much to be learned by future buyers and sellers with the way this transaction has evolved, and they will not all agree. Every action taken and decision made has had its pros and cons, neither party being without fault, which I believe both have acknowledged. I had no further opinions to offer in this thread until people asked me questions, or quoted me, etc., and I suspect I may be quoted further. This is not the first thread where I have deliberately played devil's advocate. Its a vice.

 

[lds2]

Jim,

As to your question regarding an "inexperienced" reptile keeper, I think the same standard applies. If a buyer sees two items that seem the same but are of two different prices wouldn't one ask what is the difference between the two? I would and have. The fact here is that Shanti is an experienced reptile keeper and should be asking those questions.

Fifty bucks may have fixed the problem, but it shouldn't have gotten this far. Had Shanti even raised the question of a problem with the store none of us would be writing on this thread because it would have been resolved and taken care of. My real problem is that she comes out and trashes the store without any attempt to resolve it.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Larry, for the sake of argument:

Had Shanti even raised the question of a problem with the store none of us would be writing on this thread because it would have been resolved and taken care of. My real problem is that she comes out and trashes the store without any attempt to resolve it.

I do not agree with all of your conclusions, but lets assume that its 100% correct, and that Shanti missed wide-open opportunities that we could have driven a Mack truck through for an earlier solution. IMO, and that of others expressed here, she is not the only one who missed opportunities, or are responsible for actions, that if taken "none of us would be writing on this thread".

 

[CMCreptiles]

Did Shanti Call Brian yet???? If she cant pick up the phone and talk to Brian she should not be bringing this to the BOI ......And Brian owes her nothing if she can't call to work things out....It's all up to Shanti not Brian.............My 2 cents!!

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Yes, Brian and I are talking and trying to work things out right now. Unless things fall completely fall apart, don't expect to hear from either of us for awhile.

 

[Chameleon Company]

That's great Shanti. I hope there's an outcome that both parties feel OK about. And may God smite me if I make another post to bring this thread back to the top prior to you coming back here, hopefully with a solution you are content with. Note: it was at the top already as I posted this !

 

[A_Kendergirl]

First to clear up a few questions. I was not made aware of any price differences between snakes, other than females ($59.99) cost more than males ($49.99). Yes, I would have asked more questions if I had seen any others. Seeing as it never came up, it's a moot point.

About the mites, they were very minimal. Now that I know exactly what they look like, I still doubt that I, or Brian's staff would have found them unless we spent several minutes looking for them. There wasn't an infestation, but they were there. I didn't actually find them, the vet did. She found 2 mites in the fold under his chin, and roughly 10 more by wiping down his body with medication. Hardly what I would call an infestation. I was lucky she caught them early.

Now for the good news, Brian and I have exchanged several e-mails, and talked briefly in person and we have come to an agreement. I must apologise to Brian for acting rashly, and for not giving him an opportunity to do anything. I do feel if I had given him that chance, he would have absolutely done what was right. He's a good guy to talk to, even when he has cause to be mad at you! I know I have learned from this experience.

As we have reached a resolution, we both ask to let this thread die as quickly as possible. If the powers that be would allow it, this thread wouldn't even been here. As it is, thank you to the people that saw things from my perspective, and to the people who stood up to defend Brian. While things could have gone better (my fault), Brian was good enough to still make amends.