Chicago Reptile House sells sick Ball Python

[A_Kendergirl]

This will take awhile to get everything out, so please forgive me. I'll start by saying this is my first snake, so while I have a good idea of what to look for in a healthy snake, I'm not well experienced. I have kept various herps ranging - all amphibians or lizards/geckos for the last 10 years. I currently have 20 leopard geckos in addition to the ball python in question.

Back in September I had gone by the store (as I live very close), and I was horrified by what I had seen. I had made a post on the leo forum which can be found here ---> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72082&highlight=store . I swore them off, and didn't set foot in the store again until 1/10/06.

When I went in, there were a lot of changes. The store really looked a lot better (and smelled better). All of the tanks had been very recently cleaned. All of the animals looked good and healthy, other than a few juvie bearded dragons that had tail nips. While I was looking around, I spotted a ball python that I thought was very attractive.

I went home and talked with my husband that night about getting the snake. He had misgivings due to the prior state of the store, but said OK mainly due to me telling him how the store looked now, and that it would allow me to avoid having one shipped to me.

On 1/11/06 (Wednesday), I went back to look at the snake again, and to possibly purchase it. I flagged down one of the guys working there, and asked if they were imported. He looked at me like I had two heads, and was very quick to tell me that all of the BPs were CBB. He took out the one I specified, and popped it for sexing (male), then handed it over to me.

He had balled up after being popped (can you blame him?), so it was a little difficult for me to look him over. But he looked like he weighed a decent amount, and I saw no obvious signs of illness. Prior to the popping, he was quite active. I did notice that he felt QUITE warm, but I didn't think much of it at the time. I asked about feeding, and was told they are eating live fuzzy mice, but it's really easy to switch them to F/T. The one I was looking at was being kept with roughly 5 other small BPs in a 15qt tub. He pointed at a slightly larger one, and told me it would eat larger items. That's when we both saw a much smaller BP in the tub that was belly up. He disposed of it right away. I SHOULD have walked away right then, but I was excited about getting my first BP and I let it get the better of me. So, I bought him along with some aspen bedding. When I was paying, they advised me to not feed him for 3 - 4 days.

Once I got him home, I noticed that he was pacing around the tank nearly non-stop. It looked to me like he was looking for something, and after talking to several people on the forums, I decided to try to feed him anyway. I went back to the store and got a live fuzzy mouse. He ignored the mouse *I was half expecting that), but I left it in there for awhile. As my husband was going to bed, he called me over to look at the snake because it was being funny. I looked at it, and he was staring head straight up, unmoving. I thought it was a little odd, but told my husband that maybe it caught scent of the mouse. About an hour later, he did find the mouse and sat next to it for about 15 minutes before he decided it was food. So, he did eat the first night home, which REALLY made me happy.

I was told by a few people to absolutely leave him alone for the next few days, so he can digest, so I did.

On 1/14/06 (Saturday) I noticed that he had defecated, with urates. So I took him out to clean up. I immediately dumped the feces (not thinking). I was walking around with him, and as he was in my hand he started looking straight up again. I watched him very closely, and after a bit, he gave a big yawn, followed by another. I thought I had felt a pop, but I wasn't sure. There was a very small amount of mucus, but I wasn't sure if that was normal or not. I raised the temperature in the tank to 80/95, with a night drop just in case he was sick.

On 1/15/06 (Sunday) I removed him again to see how he was doing. He was yawning a lot, with more mucus than the day before. I was definitely feeling popping by that time. I had heard of RI, and thought maybe he had it. Given it was Sunday, I wasn't able to take him to the vet. The vet I had previously used doesn't work with snakes, so I found one local that did. Her office didn't have voicemail (just an automated message), but they were open on Tuesday.

When I got home on 1/16/06 (Monday), I checked on him again and was paniced. His breathing was very labored, and he was popping loud enough that I could hear it. He was yawning constantly, and had a lot of mucus and was now blowing bubbles as well. I sought advise here and on other forums ( http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74771 ) . After talking with a few people, I decided the best course of action was to get rid of the night drop (75 degrees for 8 hours).

I was unable to get him into the vet on Tuesday, as they were completely booked.

First thing on 1/18/06 (Wednesday) I was able to get him in. While I was there, she confirmed my worst fears - he was getting pneumonia. Also during the exam, she found mites. Keep in mind, I have no other snakes that he could get mites from. She showed me how to give him injections of Amikacin, and gave me medication for the mites. She also had me empty his tank to make it as sterile an environment as possible, and said to keep the temp and humidity where it was until he's doing better.

He had 5 more shots of Amikacin to go, one every other day. For the mites, I have to wipe him down daily with the solution given to me by the vet, and sterilize his tank and furniture daily.

On 1/22/06 (Sunday) he passed what looked to me like a very abnormal poop. I took a picture and posted on the forums yet again, looking for help. I also bagged it up, and placed it in the fridge so I could take it in for an exam. http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74902 The general consensus was that it didn't look all that unusual, and was most likely due to the medications.

On 1/24/06 (Tuesday) I took in the stool to be tested.

And now we get to today (1/26/06)... I got a phone call back from the vet regarding the fecal exam. It turns out that he has pinworms AND roundworms. I have absolutely had enough, and decided to bring it here. There is no way I should be having this many problems with a CBB hatchling (He's 72g empty BTW).

I have to make sure the RI is 100% cured, and get him feeding again before I can treat him for the worms.

A few days ago, I went back to the shop to talk to them about the problems I've been having with him. I wasn't able to get anyone to talk to me. As I was standing next to the desk, I noticed several signs on the wall. "No Refunds, No Returns" , "No cash refunds, store credit only" , and one along the lines of "No Returns, Choose your animal carefully". I could see I wasn't going to get anywhere, so I left.

There is no way I could have known I was getting a snake that was incubating RI, pinworms, and roundworms. Someone with more experience probably would have caught the mites.

As of today, his RI/pneumonia is doing much better. While he still yawns occasionally, I no longer feel any popping. I have also been doing well with the mites - I haven't found any in the last 2 days.

I am NOT interested in returning him to the place that made him sick in the first place. I have fought hard to make him better, and he has put up with everything like a champ. I am upset that by the time I'm done treating the worms, I will have paid at least 3 times as much in medical bills and I did to purchase him.

Given the signs on the wall, I don't expect to get anything out of this. I'm just looking to warn others that are tempted to buy from that store. Be prepared to get an animal in sub-par health!

I am looking for the purchase reciept for him...in case anyone wants to see it. I haven't found it yet. I should be able to get copies of the vet reports (hopefully tomorrow), to show the actual diagnosis, and not just the payments.

 

[Fedawg]

Shanti , have you talked to anyone at Chicago Reptile house? If not tryo to . I agree , you shouldnt have to had to deal with this...

 

[Cat_72]

Shanti , have you talked to anyone at Chicago Reptile house?

Well, she TRIED to....

A few days ago, I went back to the shop to talk to them about the problems I've been having with him. I wasn't able to get anyone to talk to me. As I was standing next to the desk, I noticed several signs on the wall. "No Refunds, No Returns" , "No cash refunds, store credit only" , and one along the lines of "No Returns, Choose your animal carefully". I could see I wasn't going to get anywhere, so I left.

Shanti, I'm glad you decided to bring this out here. As you said, there's no reason you should have to be dealing with this. The snake should never have been sold in that condition, IMO.

I do wish you would have followed your instinct and walked out when you saw the "red flags" in the store, but that's neither here nor there now....have you made them aware of this post?

 

[A_Kendergirl]

I have not, but will drop them an email soon. I have to get to work.

Here is their website, if anyone has the time. If not, I'll do it when I get home this evening.

http://www.chicagoreptile.net/

As soon as the vet opens, I'm seeing if they can fax me the vet reports.

 

[Cat_72]

I sent them a note with a link to the thread, Shanti.

 

[norsmis]

Tos

I looked at their website and her is what their TOS says:

"Guarantees:
All animals are feeding and outwardly healthy before sale. No guarantees are made on any animals unless written by CRH before the sale is made. This does not apply to investment quality herps. See our Investment Guarantee below:"

So, you are probably correct in assuming that you are stuck with the sick snake and vet bills. But my question is, how does a CBB hatchling get get 2 types of worms? I know it happens in some collections but a 72gr hatchling should not have worms already unless the conditions are deplorable in the store which means all of their snakes are probably sick due to many snakes in one cage.

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Thanks Cathy.

I just got off the phone with the vet. She (the receptionist) can't fax until she talks with the DR. She'll be in on Monday. DOH...they are open on Monday!

Anyway, I'm off to work!

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Here is a PM just received from NARBC (Chicago Reptile House)...I really have to go now, or I'll be late.

Im very sorry to hear about your snake. Blasting us on an open forum and not bringing this to our attention makes no sense. We would have replaced the snake or taken care of your vet bill had you just shown us the proof you placed on the BOI. Th signs you speak of are there for all the idiots that bake stuff in the car or freeze it on the way home. This was the wrong approach to this I assure you......what have you accomplished? I cant say for sure the resp infection was your fault or mine for sure. The mite issue is our fault.....a large collection is tought o keep 100% clean. It was not done intentionally I guarantee. Next time you deal with someone.......not us......talk to them before taking your complaints to the public. You just may get what you want. I cant post on the BOI (no account)......if you would like to post this.....its up to you.


Brian Potter
Chicago Reptile House

I am sorry it had to come to this as well. I did try to speak to someone at the store, and couldn't get anyone to stop. After seeing those signs on the wall, can you blame me for walking out? Honestly, after seeing them, I wasn't expecting to get anything other than an "Oh well, you choose him."

If you contact the webmaster, he will give you a free one month subscription to come to the forum to defend yourself. I'm sure that's preferable to playing telephone with me. (Webmaster is the name to PM)
I will be happy to post your responce as well as my own.

-Shanti

 

[Casey Hulse]

A few days ago, I went back to the shop to talk to them about the problems I've been having with him. I wasn't able to get anyone to talk to me. As I was standing next to the desk, I noticed several signs on the wall. "No Refunds, No Returns" , "No cash refunds, store credit only" , and one along the lines of "No Returns, Choose your animal carefully". I could see I wasn't going to get anywhere, so I left.

You should have tried harder to speak with Brian or an employee. I know Brian, and he would have been very helpful.
As far as the worms, I think most petshops buy their herps from breeders and importers, the imported BPs are often refered to as CB as they are hatched in large quantities on farms in Africa, and can be exposed to unsanitary conditions due to the large volume the farms produce.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I am glad that Brian took the time to PM you ...

And I do not know if that is the full extent of Brian's communications. Brian, you make it quite clear that you would have taken care of this had it been brought to your attention, and I can sympathize absolutely if you feel that you were not given the opportunity then.

We would have replaced the snake or taken care of your vet bill had you just shown us the proof you placed on the BOI.

But has the opportunity now evaporated? I would say it has only grown larger ! I would concur that despite the signs, and despite the difficulties claimed in getting anyone's attention, Kendergirl would have been better served by trying harder to speak with a person in a decision-making position. But I also think that your signs lend themselves to this situation, and that you could guarantee health while still not being liable for buyer neglect. IMO, you and your business are not without some liability for both the health of the snake (which you acknowledge) and the actions of the customer (?). You still are in a position to turn a negative into a positive.

 

[NARBC]

Sick Ball and your great method of resolving this......

This will take awhile to get everything out, so please forgive me. I'll start by saying this is my first snake, so while I have a good idea of what to look for in a healthy snake, I'm not well experienced. I have kept various herps ranging - all amphibians or lizards/geckos for the last 10 years. I currently have 20 leopard geckos in addition to the ball python in question.

Back in September I had gone by the store (as I live very close), and I was horrified by what I had seen. I had made a post on the leo forum which can be found here ---> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72082&highlight=store . I swore them off, and didn't set foot in the store again until 1/10/06.

When I went in, there were a lot of changes. The store really looked a lot better (and smelled better). All of the tanks had been very recently cleaned. All of the animals looked good and healthy, other than a few juvie bearded dragons that had tail nips. While I was looking around, I spotted a ball python that I thought was very attractive.

Nipped tails has nothing to do with health........just wanted to point that out. We purchased them that way......

I went home and talked with my husband that night about getting the snake. He had misgivings due to the prior state of the store, but said OK mainly due to me telling him how the store looked now, and that it would allow me to avoid having one shipped to me.

The store is well kept.......maybe some dirty glass now and then.......due to misting.....but we run a clean store.........period. Our guys bust ass and know what they are selling.......most of them have worked there for 8 plus years.

On 1/11/06 (Wednesday), I went back to look at the snake again, and to possibly purchase it. I flagged down one of the guys working there, and asked if they were imported. He looked at me like I had two heads, and was very quick to tell me that all of the BPs were CBB. He took out the one I specified, and popped it for sexing (male), then handed it over to me.

The Ball you purchased was a Captive Born........farmed in Africa.......like all pet store Balls......we have true CB's.......but they are more money. You bought the Captive Born.........which many times is just as good.

He had balled up after being popped (can you blame him?), so it was a little difficult for me to look him over. But he looked like he weighed a decent amount, and I saw no obvious signs of illness. Prior to the popping, he was quite active. I did notice that he felt QUITE warm, but I didn't think much of it at the time. I asked about feeding, and was told they are eating live fuzzy mice, but it's really easy to switch them to F/T. The one I was looking at was being kept with roughly 5 other small BPs in a 15qt tub. He pointed at a slightly larger one, and told me it would eat larger items. That's when we both saw a much smaller BP in the tub that was belly up. He disposed of it right away. I SHOULD have walked away right then, but I was excited about getting my first BP and I let it get the better of me. So, I bought him along with some aspen bedding. When I was paying, they advised me to not feed him for 3 - 4 days.

It should have been no problem, to look him over. Wrestling with a baby Ball is no problem......balling up or not. If he was quite warm as you state......the last thing I would worry about is a resp inf.......and if the animal is not showing signs.......like mucus or bubbling from the nostrils neither of us would know he is sick.....we can both agree. If a dead Ball was in the bunch you picked from......I regret that. We do lose animals now and then......all of us do. We would have picked you the best looking animal in the bunch.....we often push a larger animal on a customer when they want the small "cute" one. Business only works when we make the customer happy.......or we wouldnt be in business over 13 years. We always try to sell the best herp in the tank......and sometimes pull animals off the shelf for a time being.

Once I got him home, I noticed that he was pacing around the tank nearly non-stop. It looked to me like he was looking for something, and after talking to several people on the forums, I decided to try to feed him anyway. I went back to the store and got a live fuzzy mouse. He ignored the mouse *I was half expecting that), but I left it in there for awhile. As my husband was going to bed, he called me over to look at the snake because it was being funny. I looked at it, and he was staring head straight up, unmoving. I thought it was a little odd, but told my husband that maybe it caught scent of the mouse. About an hour later, he did find the mouse and sat next to it for about 15 minutes before he decided it was food. So, he did eat the first night home, which REALLY made me happy.

Sick snakes very seldom non-stop pace around the tank? Anyone agree? The head straight up can be a sign of a resp inf. We always tell people to wait until the animal adjusts to the new tank......even when Im selling one of the Balls that we breed in the shop.......many times costing $1,000 to $15,000 each.......same advice wait 3 or 4 days. You got the same advice we tell everyone.

I was told by a few people to absolutely leave him alone for the next few days, so he can digest, so I did.

Good idea.....


On 1/14/06 (Saturday) I noticed that he had defecated, with urates. So I took him out to clean up. I immediately dumped the feces (not thinking). I was walking around with him, and as he was in my hand he started looking straight up again. I watched him very closely, and after a bit, he gave a big yawn, followed by another. I thought I had felt a pop, but I wasn't sure. There was a very small amount of mucus, but I wasn't sure if that was normal or not. I raised the temperature in the tank to 80/95, with a night drop just in case he was sick.

Perfect time to call the store and ask a question.....we would have advised you to bring him in for a look over.

On 1/15/06 (Sunday) I removed him again to see how he was doing. He was yawning a lot, with more mucus than the day before. I was definitely feeling popping by that time. I had heard of RI, and thought maybe he had it. Given it was Sunday, I wasn't able to take him to the vet. The vet I had previously used doesn't work with snakes, so I found one local that did. Her office didn't have voicemail (just an automated message), but they were open on Tuesday.

Another great time to give us a call........but you never did.

When I got home on 1/16/06 (Monday), I checked on him again and was paniced. His breathing was very labored, and he was popping loud enough that I could hear it. He was yawning constantly, and had a lot of mucus and was now blowing bubbles as well. I sought advise here and on other forums ( http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74771 ) . After talking with a few people, I decided the best course of action was to get rid of the night drop (75 degrees for 8 hours).

NO night drop for a baby Ball is needed.......good way to get him sick actually. Night drops are for breeding only......Im not saying it will make him sick and you cant do it........but it could.........or further complicate a small problem already taking place.

I was unable to get him into the vet on Tuesday, as they were completely booked.

First thing on 1/18/06 (Wednesday) I was able to get him in. While I was there, she confirmed my worst fears - he was getting pneumonia. Also during the exam, she found mites. Keep in mind, I have no other snakes that he could get mites from. She showed me how to give him injections of Amikacin, and gave me medication for the mites. She also had me empty his tank to make it as sterile an environment as possible, and said to keep the temp and humidity where it was until he's doing better.

He had 5 more shots of Amikacin to go, one every other day. For the mites, I have to wipe him down daily with the solution given to me by the vet, and sterilize his tank and furniture daily.

On 1/22/06 (Sunday) he passed what looked to me like a very abnormal poop. I took a picture and posted on the forums yet again, looking for help. I also bagged it up, and placed it in the fridge so I could take it in for an exam. http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74902 The general consensus was that it didn't look all that unusual, and was most likely due to the medications.

On 1/24/06 (Tuesday) I took in the stool to be tested.

And now we get to today (1/26/06)... I got a phone call back from the vet regarding the fecal exam. It turns out that he has pinworms AND roundworms. I have absolutely had enough, and decided to bring it here. There is no way I should be having this many problems with a CBB hatchling (He's 72g empty BTW).

Common in Captive Borns from Africa at certain times of the year.......in an unstressed animal normally not a problem......but worth treating......and had you notified us would have been paid for by us.

I have to make sure the RI is 100% cured, and get him feeding again before I can treat him for the worms.

A few days ago, I went back to the shop to talk to them about the problems I've been having with him. I wasn't able to get anyone to talk to me. As I was standing next to the desk, I noticed several signs on the wall. "No Refunds, No Returns" , "No cash refunds, store credit only" , and one along the lines of "No Returns, Choose your animal carefully". I could see I wasn't going to get anywhere, so I left.

Ask around......we are a very family oriented shop......lots of people "hang out" and talk shop everday. Ball Pythons happen to be one of my favorite herps and I work with a very large group (over 300) everyday. We have sevral customers who come to us for advice on raising and breeding them evry single day......had you asked myself or my staff would have gladly answered your questions. Nobody at the store is unapproachable........we cant make a living blowing off customers.


There is no way I could have known I was getting a snake that was incubating RI, pinworms, and roundworms. Someone with more experience probably would have caught the mites.

The mites are our fault for not catching them. We buy, sell and trade every day. We work hard to get them before they move.......somtimes they get going before we see them.

As of today, his RI/pneumonia is doing much better. While he still yawns occasionally, I no longer feel any popping. I have also been doing well with the mites - I haven't found any in the last 2 days.

I am NOT interested in returning him to the place that made him sick in the first place. I have fought hard to make him better, and he has put up with everything like a champ. I am upset that by the time I'm done treating the worms, I will have paid at least 3 times as much in medical bills and I did to purchase him.

You dont want to return to thestore and we are glad to hear that. As for your bill.......you blasted us on this forum without consulting us......we have both lost money now.......we are by no means even as I will lose much more than you. I really wish you had just called us. This would have been an easy fix!

Given the signs on the wall, I don't expect to get anything out of this. I'm just looking to warn others that are tempted to buy from that store. Be prepared to get an animal in sub-par health!

The signs are there for a reason.......many people think if you buy an animal it should live no matter what the living conditions are.....and that doesnt work. We make exceptions all the time under the right circumstances.....when its fair to both parties! You certainly will not "get anything out of this" after this posting.....and that has nothing to do wit the signs. Think before you act....WE HAVE NOT BEEN IN BUSINESS FOR OVER 13 YEARS SELLING SUB-PAR HERPS!!! If anyones in the area......stop by and see some great herps!

I am looking for the purchase reciept for him...in case anyone wants to see it. I haven't found it yet. I should be able to get copies of the vet reports (hopefully tomorrow), to show the actual diagnosis, and not just the payments.

Brian Potter
Chicago Reptile House

 

[Chameleon Company]

That sure cleared things up !!

Sick Ball and your great method of resolving this......
(for those who view this by page, page 1 has now become page 3, and I don't see a need to turn it to page 4, etc)

Excellent opportunity to fix things here. Excellent opportunity to make them worse too. Hope things can be resolved.

 

[KelliH]

The Ball you purchased was a Captive Born........farmed in Africa.......like all pet store Balls......we have true CB's.......but they are more money. You bought the Captive Born.........which many times is just as good.

So a ball python produced by a captive breeding is called a true captive born at your stire? And a ball python hatched in Africa from an egg collected from a wild caught female is what? A false captive born? I think it is misleading to see someone a captive hatched baby ball python as captive born. The terms have been around for some time, why not call them what they are: captive hatched in Africa/imports? Yes, they can do fine in captivity but you know as well as I do how many of them end up dying shortly after being imported.

The question is: would Shanti have purchased the snake had she known it was an imported baby?

 

[KelliH]

So a ball python produced by a captive breeding is called a true captive born at your stire?

So sorry, that last word should be store.

 

[Scott Ashton]

On 1/11/06 (Wednesday), I went back to look at the snake again, and to possibly purchase it. I flagged down one of the guys working there, and asked if they were imported. He looked at me like I had two heads, and was very quick to tell me that all of the BPs were CBB. He took out the one I specified, and popped it for sexing (male), then handed it over to me.

The Ball you purchased was a Captive Born........farmed in Africa.......like all pet store Balls......we have true CB's.......but they are more money. You bought the Captive Born.........which many times is just as good.

Seems like an exercise in semantics here, but I'd call that an import.

Brian -

What prophylaxis to you administer to your imports?

A few days ago, I went back to the shop to talk to them about the problems I've been having with him. I wasn't able to get anyone to talk to me. As I was standing next to the desk, I noticed several signs on the wall. "No Refunds, No Returns" , "No cash refunds, store credit only" , and one along the lines of "No Returns, Choose your animal carefully". I could see I wasn't going to get anywhere, so I left.


Given the signs on the wall, I don't expect to get anything out of this. I'm just looking to warn others that are tempted to buy from that store. Be prepared to get an animal in sub-par health!

Shanti -

What exactly do you mean by "I wasn't able to get anyone to speak with me"?

Since you didn't actually speak to someone, and as best I can tell didn't email them either prior to this post, I think your assumption that they weren't going to do anything to resolve this led you to feel that your only option was to post on the BOI.

The problem I have is that you posted on the BOI without the other party ever having the opportunity to address the situation. Had you actually communicated with them and they failed to do anything that would be another story.

Brian -

I think its unfortuante that this situation made it to the BOI the way it did and I understand your frustration at not being able to address the matter prior to the post.

That said - the situation has now become very visible, and although it may have cost you some business - I think that not offering a remedy just because the situation went to the BOI may be short-sighted.

Certainly Shanti should have been more aggressive/persistent in her attempts to contact you, but given the signage which is displayed in your store, don't you see how someone (especially someone new to snakes) could be intimidated out of such a dialogue?

I really hope that you can both resolve this mis-understanding amicably. I don't think anyone her thinks this is anything but a misunderstanding.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Brian Potter
Chicago Reptile House

Brian, I took the liberty to highlight your comments. It is very hard to read your responses within her quote. Just so everyone knows who posted what.
Originally Posted by A_Kendergirl
This will take awhile to get everything out, so please forgive me. I'll start by saying this is my first snake, so while I have a good idea of what to look for in a healthy snake, I'm not well experienced. I have kept various herps ranging - all amphibians or lizards/geckos for the last 10 years. I currently have 20 leopard geckos in addition to the ball python in question.

Back in September I had gone by the store (as I live very close), and I was horrified by what I had seen. I had made a post on the leo forum which can be found here ---> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...highlight=store . I swore them off, and didn't set foot in the store again until 1/10/06.

When I went in, there were a lot of changes. The store really looked a lot better (and smelled better). All of the tanks had been very recently cleaned. All of the animals looked good and healthy, other than a few juvie bearded dragons that had tail nips. While I was looking around, I spotted a ball python that I thought was very attractive.

Nipped tails has nothing to do with health........just wanted to point that out. We purchased them that way......I went home and talked with my husband that night about getting the snake. He had misgivings due to the prior state of the store, but said OK mainly due to me telling him how the store looked now, and that it would allow me to avoid having one shipped to me.

The store is well kept.......maybe some dirty glass now and then.......due to misting.....but we run a clean store.........period. Our guys bust ass and know what they are selling.......most of them have worked there for 8 plus years.
On 1/11/06 (Wednesday), I went back to look at the snake again, and to possibly purchase it. I flagged down one of the guys working there, and asked if they were imported. He looked at me like I had two heads, and was very quick to tell me that all of the BPs were CBB. He took out the one I specified, and popped it for sexing (male), then handed it over to me.

The Ball you purchased was a Captive Born........farmed in Africa.......like all pet store Balls......we have true CB's.......but they are more money. You bought the Captive Born.........which many times is just as good.

He had balled up after being popped (can you blame him?), so it was a little difficult for me to look him over. But he looked like he weighed a decent amount, and I saw no obvious signs of illness. Prior to the popping, he was quite active. I did notice that he felt QUITE warm, but I didn't think much of it at the time. I asked about feeding, and was told they are eating live fuzzy mice, but it's really easy to switch them to F/T. The one I was looking at was being kept with roughly 5 other small BPs in a 15qt tub. He pointed at a slightly larger one, and told me it would eat larger items. That's when we both saw a much smaller BP in the tub that was belly up. He disposed of it right away. I SHOULD have walked away right then, but I was excited about getting my first BP and I let it get the better of me. So, I bought him along with some aspen bedding. When I was paying, they advised me to not feed him for 3 - 4 days.

It should have been no problem, to look him over. Wrestling with a baby Ball is no problem......balling up or not. If he was quite warm as you state......the last thing I would worry about is a resp inf.......and if the animal is not showing signs.......like mucus or bubbling from the nostrils neither of us would know he is sick.....we can both agree. If a dead Ball was in the bunch you picked from......I regret that. We do lose animals now and then......all of us do.
We would have picked you the best looking animal in the bunch.....we often push a larger animal on a customer when they want the small "cute" one. Business only works when we make the customer happy.......or we wouldnt be in business over 13 years. We always try to sell the best herp in the tank......and sometimes pull animals off the shelf for a time being.

Once I got him home, I noticed that he was pacing around the tank nearly non-stop. It looked to me like he was looking for something, and after talking to several people on the forums, I decided to try to feed him anyway. I went back to the store and got a live fuzzy mouse. He ignored the mouse *I was half expecting that), but I left it in there for awhile. As my husband was going to bed, he called me over to look at the snake because it was being funny. I looked at it, and he was staring head straight up, unmoving. I thought it was a little odd, but told my husband that maybe it caught scent of the mouse. About an hour later, he did find the mouse and sat next to it for about 15 minutes before he decided it was food. So, he did eat the first night home, which REALLY made me happy.

Sick snakes very seldom non-stop pace around the tank? Anyone agree? The head straight up can be a sign of a resp inf. We always tell people to wait until the animal adjusts to the new tank......even when Im selling one of the Balls that we breed in the shop.......many times costing $1,000 to $15,000 each.......same advice wait 3 or 4 days. You got the same advice we tell everyone.
I was told by a few people to absolutely leave him alone for the next few days, so he can digest, so I did.

Good idea.....

On 1/14/06 (Saturday) I noticed that he had defecated, with urates. So I took him out to clean up. I immediately dumped the feces (not thinking). I was walking around with him, and as he was in my hand he started looking straight up again. I watched him very closely, and after a bit, he gave a big yawn, followed by another. I thought I had felt a pop, but I wasn't sure. There was a very small amount of mucus, but I wasn't sure if that was normal or not. I raised the temperature in the tank to 80/95, with a night drop just in case he was sick.

Perfect time to call the store and ask a question.....we would have advised you to bring him in for a look over.

On 1/15/06 (Sunday) I removed him again to see how he was doing. He was yawning a lot, with more mucus than the day before. I was definitely feeling popping by that time. I had heard of RI, and thought maybe he had it. Given it was Sunday, I wasn't able to take him to the vet. The vet I had previously used doesn't work with snakes, so I found one local that did. Her office didn't have voicemail (just an automated message), but they were open on Tuesday.

Another great time to give us a call........but you never did.

When I got home on 1/16/06 (Monday), I checked on him again and was paniced. His breathing was very labored, and he was popping loud enough that I could hear it. He was yawning constantly, and had a lot of mucus and was now blowing bubbles as well. I sought advise here and on other forums ( http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...ead.php?t=74771 ) . After talking with a few people, I decided the best course of action was to get rid of the night drop (75 degrees for 8 hours).

NO night drop for a baby Ball is needed.......good way to get him sick actually. Night drops are for breeding only......Im not saying it will make him sick and you cant do it........but it could.........or further complicate a small problem already taking place.

I was unable to get him into the vet on Tuesday, as they were completely booked.

First thing on 1/18/06 (Wednesday) I was able to get him in. While I was there, she confirmed my worst fears - he was getting pneumonia. Also during the exam, she found mites. Keep in mind, I have no other snakes that he could get mites from. She showed me how to give him injections of Amikacin, and gave me medication for the mites. She also had me empty his tank to make it as sterile an environment as possible, and said to keep the temp and humidity where it was until he's doing better.
On 1/22/06 (Sunday) he passed what looked to me like a very abnormal poop. I took a picture and posted on the forums yet again, looking for help. I also bagged it up, and placed it in the fridge so I could take it in for an exam. http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...ead.php?t=74902 The general consensus was that it didn't look all that unusual, and was most likely due to the medications.

On 1/24/06 (Tuesday) I took in the stool to be tested.

And now we get to today (1/26/06)... I got a phone call back from the vet regarding the fecal exam. It turns out that he has pinworms AND roundworms. I have absolutely had enough, and decided to bring it here. There is no way I should be having this many problems with a CBB hatchling (He's 72g empty BTW).

Common in Captive Borns from Africa at certain times of the year.......in an unstressed animal normally not a problem......but worth treating......and had you notified us would have been paid for by us.

I have to make sure the RI is 100% cured, and get him feeding again before I can treat him for the worms.

A few days ago, I went back to the shop to talk to them about the problems I've been having with him. I wasn't able to get anyone to talk to me. As I was standing next to the desk, I noticed several signs on the wall. "No Refunds, No Returns" , "No cash refunds, store credit only" , and one along the lines of "No Returns, Choose your animal carefully". I could see I wasn't going to get anywhere, so I left.

Ask around......we are a very family oriented shop......lots of people "hang out" and talk shop everday. Ball Pythons happen to be one of my favorite herps and I work with a very large group (over 300) everyday. We have sevral customers who come to us for advice on raising and breeding them evry single day......had you asked myself or my staff would have gladly answered your questions. Nobody at the store is unapproachable........we cant make a living blowing off customers.

There is no way I could have known I was getting a snake that was incubating RI, pinworms, and roundworms. Someone with more experience probably would have caught the mites.

The mites are our fault for not catching them. We buy, sell and trade every day. We work hard to get them before they move.......somtimes they get going before we see them.

As of today, his RI/pneumonia is doing much better. While he still yawns occasionally, I no longer feel any popping. I have also been doing well with the mites - I haven't found any in the last 2 days.

I am NOT interested in returning him to the place that made him sick in the first place. I have fought hard to make him better, and he has put up with everything like a champ. I am upset that by the time I'm done treating the worms, I will have paid at least 3 times as much in medical bills and I did to purchase him.

You dont want to return to thestore and we are glad to hear that. As for your bill.......you blasted us on this forum without consulting us......we have both lost money now.......we are by no means even as I will lose much more than you. I really wish you had just called us. This would have been an easy fix!

Given the signs on the wall, I don't expect to get anything out of this. I'm just looking to warn others that are tempted to buy from that store. Be prepared to get an animal in sub-par health!

The signs are there for a reason.......many people think if you buy an animal it should live no matter what the living conditions are.....and that doesnt work. We make exceptions all the time under the right circumstances.....when its fair to both parties! You certainly will not "get anything out of this" after this posting.....and that has nothing to do wit the signs. Think before you act....WE HAVE NOT BEEN IN BUSINESS FOR OVER 13 YEARS SELLING SUB-PAR HERPS!!! If anyones in the area......stop by and see some great herps!

I am looking for the purchase reciept for him...in case anyone wants to see it. I haven't found it yet. I should be able to get copies of the vet reports (hopefully tomorrow), to show the actual diagnosis, and not just the payments.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Thanx Dennis!

I totally missed Brians reply.

 

[Cat_72]

I have to say....I do believe this leaves us at a very good point for a much better ending than we tend to see here on the BOI. I think BOTH parties here have good intentions, and can very well understand the frustration felt by both of them as well.

I don't believe Shanti would have bought this baby if she had known it was an import, please correct me I am wrong. Telling her it was CB was somewhat misleading, and CH is NOT the same thing as CB. But I also don't THINK Brian purposely sold her a sick animal.

Shanti probably should have made more of an effort to actually contact someone in the store. I assumed when she said, "I couldn't get anyone to talk to me", she meant they actually blew her off, but was it just the fact that everyone was preoccupied? I can understand why she may feel hopeless at that point. And Shanti did everything right for "Spot" the snake. She was upset that her new baby was so sick.

Anyway, my whole point is.....no one is totally right or wrong here, and it would be a great opportunity for Shanti and Brian to come to some sort of amicable conclusion.

And thanks for "fixing" that post Dennis, I was getting a bit crosseyed sorting through it, lol.

 

[Junkyard]

Brian, it seems you are far more willing to put your foot down and say "tuff luck" than you are willing to work out this problem. Your reputation here will depend a lot on your actions to this problem. Though I do not think she came here to blast you and your store, as much as she came here to resolve this issue. Maybe even bring to your attention that this happened, as she has stated that she is not interested in returning the snake.

Shanti, as stated, actually talking to some one would have made a big difference. Learn from that mistake and talk to people, even a phone call is important if you cannot talk to someone at the store. Though I do understand your feeling that you have been had after reading the signs in the store.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Thanks Dennis, I missed it too.

I think that this part of Brian's post gets to the meat of the matter:

You dont want to return to thestore and we are glad to hear that. As for your bill.......you blasted us on this forum without consulting us......we have both lost money now.......we are by no means even as I will lose much more than you. I really wish you had just called us .......

I don't think there is a single part of that which I can agree with. I have been in exactly your position in this forum a bit over two years ago. I made it clear that I disagreed with the customer's failure to give me what I considered a fair opportunity to resolve the issue prior to their post here. And then I fixed it as it should have been fixed from the beginning. I was certainly P.O.'d, but also had to realize that I was not without fault. If you feel that you owe no compensation Brian, then the bleeding will not stop, and then I would say that this part of your quote " ...we are by no means even as I will lose much more than you ...." will come to be true. If you rise above the situation, as many here appreciate that you feel a bit blind-sided, then you could come out much ahead.

....This would have been an easy fix

You're right ! That part I agree with. Still is !