On Monday March 18th I answered an AD on kingsnake.com posted by Chuck Oldham for a breeding colony of Tokay geckos for $150+ shipping. We communicated via email and decided shipping would have to be delayed until safer weather, but I sent Chuck the payment of $150, the payment cleared and was removed from my paypal account. (I was going to send him a prepaid shipping label at the time of shipping)
On March 21st, I received a refund for the $150 with no explanation. I emailed Chuck asking why my payment was refunded and was told-
"I am going to delay shipments as the weather will not be safe. Did
you get the total $150. back?"
Assuming, as I was told, that he refunded simply because it might take a while to get a shipment out due to weather, I emailed Chuck back and said I did not mind waiting as long as needed for safe shipping weather, and would still like to buy they lot. Chuck never responded to me.
On March 25th I noticed the same animals I had previously paid Chuck for we back up for sale on kingsnake, but at a much higher price. I contacted Chuck and asked if I was unable to buy them simply due to shipping, why they were for sale again? He answered, admitting he lied about why he refunded my money. He stated he refunded me because he felt the price was to low. (the price HE picked and listed in his own ad) He then went on to tell me he saw a HET Leucistic tokay I had listed for sale, insinuating that he knew me to be lying that the animals was in fact a HET Leucistic, and I was simply lying about this to sell the animal for a higher price. I responded telling him that he had taken my money, and I felt was obligated to sell me the animals, and if the price was to low he should have listed them higher in the first place. I told him he obviously knew what he was doing was wrong as he lied to me about why he sent my money back the first time. I told him I felt the right think would be to sell me the animals at the original price. I also told him I was offended and found it very rude he would tell me I would ever lie about an animal being a HET just to sell it for more money. i referenced him to the original breeder and pictures of the visual parent my HET came from. Chuck responded claiming my payment was never removed from paypal and therefor he has no obligation to sell me the animals. He also stated that he is leaving the country and therefor doesn't care about the opinions of myself or anyone else on the BOI. That statement makes me sure he will have no problem continue with the poor business ethics he has shown in my dealings with him.
I am not looking for any action from him, I just wanted to post this and share my story as a warning to others who may be thinking of doing business with him.
A copy of our email conversations is listed below. The emails read from the bottom up. (oldest at the bottom, most recent emails on the top)
_________________________________________________________
Your payment was never removed from PayPal prior to your refund and therefore you have no claim.
I have been involved with herps for over thirty years and I have seen it all. Your wining will only be laughed at and I will dually respond to any postings you attempt by pointing out your claims. You have the most to loose by threatening me!
I am leaving the country and won't be involved in herp dealings anymore...so even if some other little piss-ass Iike you wants to listen to your point of view...your threats and their opinions will carry no weight.
Don't email me again!
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
Are you kidding me? I'm sorry you priced your geckos to low, that is your own fault. You took my money and were therefore obligated to sell them to me. If you felt the price was to low you should have priced them higher in the first place.
As for my Tokay, he was purchased from Emerald Exotics. Their visual leucy, the parent of my het, can be seen pictured their website.
Your business practices are disgraceful. You not only took my money but then lied to me about why it was refunded because you knew what you were doing was wrong. If you would like to rectify your mistake I will still be willing to buy them.
As for you suggesting I would ever do such things as intentionally mislabel my animals and lie about them to up the price, that is not only a joke but amazingly rude. I value my animals and my ethics far higher than to pull a trick like that.
Please sell me the animals I paid for, again you took my money and at that point you are obligated to follow through on the deal we made. Should doing the right thing not be what you wish to do I will be reporting you and your shady business practices on the Fauna BOI.
~Brian
On Mar 25, 2013, at 1:24 PM, Chuck Oldham <[email protected]> wrote:
> Simple, I priced my geckos too low and I decided to correct that mistake.
>
> Additionally, I viewed your website and noticed you selling a "HET Leucistic" male tokay for $175. purchased from the Kansas City reptile show without any paperwork...sounds like the same kind of bull I see all the time on Kingsnake, like: "Powder Blue Tokay" at $250. or "Parti-Colored Tokay." at $200. I can only imagine the labels you'd be putting on my tokays and the outrageous prices.
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Chuck,
>
> I was just wondering why the tokays I previously paid for were back up for sale just a few days later? You had told me you weren't selling them due to being unable to ship them? If they are for sale again with shipping available why was I unable to purchase them?
>
> ~Brian
On 2013-03-21 21:55, Chuck Oldham wrote:
>
> I am going to delay shipments as the weather will not be safe. Did
> you get the total $150. back?
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hey Chuck,
>
> I just got a refund for my payment for the Tokay geckos. I was just wondering what was going on. Thanks.
>
> ~Brian
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Chuck Oldham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> I will keep a check on the forecast and let you know what is a best timing...probably this weekend I will get back to you with a set date. You can send the payment to my PayPal account: [email protected]
>
> Chuck
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Chuck,
> I work 5 days a week and can receive them any day. I am happy to wait until temps are in a good range. I can send you the $150 now and email you a shipping label when we set a date if you would like.
>
> ~Brian
On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:34 AM, Chuck Oldham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Brian,
The temperatures look a little better for next week, both in Louisville and Denver. Lets look to next week. These are some super nice specimens and I would hate to see anything happen to them...what does your schedule for next week look like?
>
> Chuck
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 6:01 AM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
Chuck, thank you very much for all the info, I really appreciate you taking the time. These guys sound perfect. As for shipping, the package would go from Florida to Louisville Kentucky by plane, then from Louisville to Denver. They normally land in Denver at 3:30-4:00 am and are trucked to the building I work at. I can get them as soon as they arrive in my building and move them into a heated office. (usually between 6:00-6:30 am). The only day I can see working this week might be Wednesday for Thursday arrival. The overnight low here Wednesday into Thursday is about 40 degrees. Let me know what you think. Thanks!
>
> ~Brian
> On Mar 18, 2013, at 9:47 PM, Chuck Oldham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Brian,
>
The captive bred breeders are proven, all have produced fertile young. I have had tokays for at least 30 years and replace my primary breeders when I produce something I like better or for genetic reasons. I try to keep them wilder, without handling, as my hand tamed specimens of the past were not great breeders...looked fantastic but too fat and lazy. I pumped them with as much food as they wanted and got super growth rates (11" to 12" in 12 to 18 months) They could be readily handled without biting. I have lost a couple of tail ends on my captive males due to the introduction of a new female. Lost two tips that way so it is best to keep established pairs together. One male with one female has produced the best breeding results for me and minimizes biting damages. When possible it is also best to raise young separately as older youngsters will show aggression against new introduced hatchlings. Also there are 17 not 16 specimens. I noticed the temperatures in Denver are very cold. How quickly would the shipment reach you with your special label from my location in Fernandina Beach, FL 32035? With the lower temps, I would need to put them in a larger box enclosing a Styrofoam box. The outside cardboard box dimensions are 20.5 x 13.75 x 11.5. I can tell you when I can ship after you let me know how long it will take the box to arrive at your location.
>
> Chuck
>
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 9:54 PM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
Hi Chuck, I don't know how late it is where you are so I didn't want to call tonight, so I thought I'd email back. Basically you would just have to let me know the size of the box you would need to ship them in, and I would email you a prepaid shipping label. All you would have to do is print it out, tape it to the box, and drop it off at a UPS hub. I work in a UPS hub here overnights, so I would get the package as soon as it gets to our building. (usually about 7AM) That way the don't sit in the warehouse all morning and ride around on a truck before being delivered. I am in Denver, the shipping zip would be 80012. Where are you located? Also I had a few questions about the group. Were most of the adults long term captives or captive hatched? Are they all proven breeders? Thank you!
>
> ~Brian
On 2013-03-18 17:38, Chuck Oldham wrote:
I can do that. What is your zip code and how would this work? They can't sit in the box in temperatures near freezing? You can call me at (904) 432-8398 Chuck
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 6:56 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
Hello, I am very interested in your Tokay colony for sale. I would love to buy them. Would if be possible for me to give you a Prepaid UPS label? I work for UPS and get a good discount, so it would be easier for me to pickup as well. Let me know and thank you!
_________________________________________________________
I feel once you have accepted money from a buyer, you are obligated to follow through with the deal. Especially when the price was the price the seller themselves chose for their animals. Not to mention someone who doesn't know me from Adam accusing me of selling normals as overpriced hets is unacceptable and tells a lot about a person, as does admitting he doesn't care what his reputation with the BOI is. I would avoid dealing with Chuck Oldham, or tread with extreme caution at the least!
On March 21st, I received a refund for the $150 with no explanation. I emailed Chuck asking why my payment was refunded and was told-
"I am going to delay shipments as the weather will not be safe. Did
you get the total $150. back?"
Assuming, as I was told, that he refunded simply because it might take a while to get a shipment out due to weather, I emailed Chuck back and said I did not mind waiting as long as needed for safe shipping weather, and would still like to buy they lot. Chuck never responded to me.
On March 25th I noticed the same animals I had previously paid Chuck for we back up for sale on kingsnake, but at a much higher price. I contacted Chuck and asked if I was unable to buy them simply due to shipping, why they were for sale again? He answered, admitting he lied about why he refunded my money. He stated he refunded me because he felt the price was to low. (the price HE picked and listed in his own ad) He then went on to tell me he saw a HET Leucistic tokay I had listed for sale, insinuating that he knew me to be lying that the animals was in fact a HET Leucistic, and I was simply lying about this to sell the animal for a higher price. I responded telling him that he had taken my money, and I felt was obligated to sell me the animals, and if the price was to low he should have listed them higher in the first place. I told him he obviously knew what he was doing was wrong as he lied to me about why he sent my money back the first time. I told him I felt the right think would be to sell me the animals at the original price. I also told him I was offended and found it very rude he would tell me I would ever lie about an animal being a HET just to sell it for more money. i referenced him to the original breeder and pictures of the visual parent my HET came from. Chuck responded claiming my payment was never removed from paypal and therefor he has no obligation to sell me the animals. He also stated that he is leaving the country and therefor doesn't care about the opinions of myself or anyone else on the BOI. That statement makes me sure he will have no problem continue with the poor business ethics he has shown in my dealings with him.
I am not looking for any action from him, I just wanted to post this and share my story as a warning to others who may be thinking of doing business with him.
A copy of our email conversations is listed below. The emails read from the bottom up. (oldest at the bottom, most recent emails on the top)
_________________________________________________________
Your payment was never removed from PayPal prior to your refund and therefore you have no claim.
I have been involved with herps for over thirty years and I have seen it all. Your wining will only be laughed at and I will dually respond to any postings you attempt by pointing out your claims. You have the most to loose by threatening me!
I am leaving the country and won't be involved in herp dealings anymore...so even if some other little piss-ass Iike you wants to listen to your point of view...your threats and their opinions will carry no weight.
Don't email me again!
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
Are you kidding me? I'm sorry you priced your geckos to low, that is your own fault. You took my money and were therefore obligated to sell them to me. If you felt the price was to low you should have priced them higher in the first place.
As for my Tokay, he was purchased from Emerald Exotics. Their visual leucy, the parent of my het, can be seen pictured their website.
Your business practices are disgraceful. You not only took my money but then lied to me about why it was refunded because you knew what you were doing was wrong. If you would like to rectify your mistake I will still be willing to buy them.
As for you suggesting I would ever do such things as intentionally mislabel my animals and lie about them to up the price, that is not only a joke but amazingly rude. I value my animals and my ethics far higher than to pull a trick like that.
Please sell me the animals I paid for, again you took my money and at that point you are obligated to follow through on the deal we made. Should doing the right thing not be what you wish to do I will be reporting you and your shady business practices on the Fauna BOI.
~Brian
On Mar 25, 2013, at 1:24 PM, Chuck Oldham <[email protected]> wrote:
> Simple, I priced my geckos too low and I decided to correct that mistake.
>
> Additionally, I viewed your website and noticed you selling a "HET Leucistic" male tokay for $175. purchased from the Kansas City reptile show without any paperwork...sounds like the same kind of bull I see all the time on Kingsnake, like: "Powder Blue Tokay" at $250. or "Parti-Colored Tokay." at $200. I can only imagine the labels you'd be putting on my tokays and the outrageous prices.
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Chuck,
>
> I was just wondering why the tokays I previously paid for were back up for sale just a few days later? You had told me you weren't selling them due to being unable to ship them? If they are for sale again with shipping available why was I unable to purchase them?
>
> ~Brian
On 2013-03-21 21:55, Chuck Oldham wrote:
>
> I am going to delay shipments as the weather will not be safe. Did
> you get the total $150. back?
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hey Chuck,
>
> I just got a refund for my payment for the Tokay geckos. I was just wondering what was going on. Thanks.
>
> ~Brian
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Chuck Oldham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> I will keep a check on the forecast and let you know what is a best timing...probably this weekend I will get back to you with a set date. You can send the payment to my PayPal account: [email protected]
>
> Chuck
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Chuck,
> I work 5 days a week and can receive them any day. I am happy to wait until temps are in a good range. I can send you the $150 now and email you a shipping label when we set a date if you would like.
>
> ~Brian
On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:34 AM, Chuck Oldham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Brian,
The temperatures look a little better for next week, both in Louisville and Denver. Lets look to next week. These are some super nice specimens and I would hate to see anything happen to them...what does your schedule for next week look like?
>
> Chuck
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 6:01 AM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
Chuck, thank you very much for all the info, I really appreciate you taking the time. These guys sound perfect. As for shipping, the package would go from Florida to Louisville Kentucky by plane, then from Louisville to Denver. They normally land in Denver at 3:30-4:00 am and are trucked to the building I work at. I can get them as soon as they arrive in my building and move them into a heated office. (usually between 6:00-6:30 am). The only day I can see working this week might be Wednesday for Thursday arrival. The overnight low here Wednesday into Thursday is about 40 degrees. Let me know what you think. Thanks!
>
> ~Brian
> On Mar 18, 2013, at 9:47 PM, Chuck Oldham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Brian,
>
The captive bred breeders are proven, all have produced fertile young. I have had tokays for at least 30 years and replace my primary breeders when I produce something I like better or for genetic reasons. I try to keep them wilder, without handling, as my hand tamed specimens of the past were not great breeders...looked fantastic but too fat and lazy. I pumped them with as much food as they wanted and got super growth rates (11" to 12" in 12 to 18 months) They could be readily handled without biting. I have lost a couple of tail ends on my captive males due to the introduction of a new female. Lost two tips that way so it is best to keep established pairs together. One male with one female has produced the best breeding results for me and minimizes biting damages. When possible it is also best to raise young separately as older youngsters will show aggression against new introduced hatchlings. Also there are 17 not 16 specimens. I noticed the temperatures in Denver are very cold. How quickly would the shipment reach you with your special label from my location in Fernandina Beach, FL 32035? With the lower temps, I would need to put them in a larger box enclosing a Styrofoam box. The outside cardboard box dimensions are 20.5 x 13.75 x 11.5. I can tell you when I can ship after you let me know how long it will take the box to arrive at your location.
>
> Chuck
>
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 9:54 PM, Sales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
Hi Chuck, I don't know how late it is where you are so I didn't want to call tonight, so I thought I'd email back. Basically you would just have to let me know the size of the box you would need to ship them in, and I would email you a prepaid shipping label. All you would have to do is print it out, tape it to the box, and drop it off at a UPS hub. I work in a UPS hub here overnights, so I would get the package as soon as it gets to our building. (usually about 7AM) That way the don't sit in the warehouse all morning and ride around on a truck before being delivered. I am in Denver, the shipping zip would be 80012. Where are you located? Also I had a few questions about the group. Were most of the adults long term captives or captive hatched? Are they all proven breeders? Thank you!
>
> ~Brian
On 2013-03-18 17:38, Chuck Oldham wrote:
I can do that. What is your zip code and how would this work? They can't sit in the box in temperatures near freezing? You can call me at (904) 432-8398 Chuck
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 6:56 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
Hello, I am very interested in your Tokay colony for sale. I would love to buy them. Would if be possible for me to give you a Prepaid UPS label? I work for UPS and get a good discount, so it would be easier for me to pickup as well. Let me know and thank you!
_________________________________________________________
I feel once you have accepted money from a buyer, you are obligated to follow through with the deal. Especially when the price was the price the seller themselves chose for their animals. Not to mention someone who doesn't know me from Adam accusing me of selling normals as overpriced hets is unacceptable and tells a lot about a person, as does admitting he doesn't care what his reputation with the BOI is. I would avoid dealing with Chuck Oldham, or tread with extreme caution at the least!
