Desert Dragons- Bad

[Denisebme]

I'm very hesitant to do this, but after seeing the amount of dragons listed from this breeder, I had to say something.
In March this year I purchased a dragon from Desert Dragons, and since they are located fairly close to me, opted to pick the baby up. The husbandry practices I saw were absolutely awful. She had several, not one or two, dragons housed together in various enclosures, and even had some adult dragons housed with an Iguana. Males were housed with females, very small females. It was the saddest thing.
Bottom line, I would have purchased every dragon she had for sale if I could have that day, not to keep them, but to get them out of there. The one I did come home with I immediately took to the vet, and after she was healthy, I gave her to a good friend that could and would provide an excellent home for her.

 

[The Reptile House]

Wow

That is extremely hard to believe! I am friends with Gloria at Desert Dragons All her dragons are top notch! She will lower her prices immensely if any nips or bites acure but all her cages are very clean and her dragons 100% healthy. She sends pics all the time to me some for sale some holdbacks and they are all great looking, not thin or sick looking at all. I do know that she is a bit overloaded right now, she had a lot breed this year and is in the process of thinning back her dragons greatly which may explain the bit crowded cages you may have seen? I have recommended a lot of people to her when I stopped breeding(some of my stock I got from Gloria) and all of those customers have been really happy with what they received.
Out of curiosity what exactly was wrong with the one you bought? What exactly did the vet state and was this told to Gloria? Was there something visibly wrong with it at the time of purchase?
If you bought it and took it to the vet and there was something defiantly wrong with the dragon I know for a fact that Gloria would have made it right by you, so I am very curious as to exactly what was wrong with the dragon and how it was told to her.
He dragons last time I was there are housed in large vision cages and they are not over crowded. I do know that like I said she is a bit overloaded right now hence all the different adds and lower prices.
I am splitting a both with her at the IRBA in December. Please come by and see her dragons. I know you will not be disappointed!
Sincerely, Shanell.

 

[The Reptile House]

And also you waited 7 months to post this. Why so long?
Shanell.

 

[critical bill]

And also you waited 7 months to post this. Why so long?
Shanell.

Opening line in Denise's post....

"I'm very hesitant to do this, but after seeing the amount of dragons listed from this breeder, I had to say something."

RIF. Reading is Fundamental.

 

[critical bill]

That is extremely hard to believe! I am friends with Gloria at Desert Dragons All her dragons are top notch! She will lower her prices immensely if any nips or bites acure but all her cages are very clean and her dragons 100% healthy. She sends pics all the time to me some for sale some holdbacks and they are all great looking, not thin or sick looking at all. I do know that she is a bit overloaded right now, she had a lot breed this year and is in the process of thinning back her dragons greatly which may explain the bit crowded cages you may have seen?

I think thats what Denise was saying. She doesn't question the animals health but rather the housing of the animals. Which can lead to health problems of course, like adult males breeding with juvenile females, but thats not exactly what Denise was pointing out.

Your friend wouldn't have a lot to breed if she didn't pair them up. She wouldn't be out of space to adequately house the animals if she prepared for housing prior to breeding.

Money money money.

What booth was that again that I'll walking straight past?

 

[The Reptile House]

So because she puts up multipal dragons for sale she NOW decides to state her concerns 7 months later? I also looked at Gloria's feedback and someone else also purchased a dragon in the same month as her and they were 100% satisfied!
If you go somewhere and see something that bothers you or you feel you got ripped off or you got a "sick" dragon from someone you certanly do not waite 7 months to post a complaint or warning.
It's my guess and only my guess at this point without getting the ?'s I asked answered or Desert Dragons responding I would say that she may never have let gloria know about any vet check. AGAIN just a guess at this point. Shanell.

 

[The Reptile House]

She actually does question the health due to she stated that she took hers straight to the vet and after it was "healthy" she gave it to a friend.
All her dragons are housed just fine for the large space of the visions she has them kept in. All her heat/lighting is top notch(I know because I was the one who ordered it for her) all her dragons are 100% healthy( I speek from direct knowledge).
Dought you would fly all the way out here for a smaller venue show and go ahead walk by.
For all those who do stop by they will see 100% healthy dragons and will be completly happy with their purchase!
Judge how you wish and so will I.
Shanell.

 

[The Reptile House]

I just spoke with Gloria she knows this is here and should respond soon. Shanell.

 

[critical bill]

She actually does question the health due to she stated that she took hers straight to the vet and after it was "healthy" she gave it to a friend.

*Big Sigh*

When multiple animals are housed/crowded together, that otherwise should be kept housed individually or in pairs, you're damn straight that animal should go to the vet upon purchase. Is veterinary care a new concept for you and your pal?

Unless of course you're of the notion that protecting your collection takes a back seat to breeding in such large numbers to make money money money.

In my opinion, and with few exceptions, all animals should be vet checked upon their arrival and quarantined thereafter for a period of time before entering a main collection.

Denise followed some very basic protocols of good husbandry. But please do go right on criticising Denise for doing what any good hobbyist would do in the same position.

 

[The Reptile House]

To quaranteen and get them checked sure I agree 100%. To never notify the breeder of any problems from a vet check and not speek up for 7 months?
If she was that disgusted in her so called practices she should never have made a purchase and spoke up imediatly period! Shanell.

 

[critical bill]

So because she puts up multipal dragons for sale she NOW decides to state her concerns 7 months later?

Is there a time limit around here I wasnt made aware of? Do you know Denise so well that you know she wasnt overseas or in the hospital...unable to post?

I also looked at Gloria's feedback and someone else also purchased a dragon in the same month as her and they were 100% satisfied!

Yeah so? Maybe that happy person is a woman as well and both her and Denise ovulate at the same time each month. What does one 100% happy customer, who was probably shipped the dragon and did not see the establishment, have to do with a concerned customer who picked the dragon up in person and was unhappy with what they witnessed?

If you go somewhere and see something that bothers you or you feel you got ripped off or you got a "sick" dragon from someone you certanly do not waite 7 months to post a complaint or warning.

Sort of correct on that, but again, perhaps she was unable to post about it or perhaps she thought this was an isolated incident and oversight by the breeder that would quickly be remedied. Maybe she thought, given the poor husbandry practice of your pal...that she was on her way out the business.

No where does Denise state that the animal was sick. But apparently you arrived at that notion because she states the animal was healthy after its vet visit.

Look at it this way....you feel pretty healthy dont you? If you went to the doctor for an annual exam and he found something that you wouldnt otherwise have felt or even noticed, but something that could compromise your health down the road, was it wrong to go to the doctor?

It's my guess and only my guess at this point without getting the ?'s I asked answered or Desert Dragons responding I would say that she may never have let gloria know about any vet check. AGAIN just a guess at this point. Shanell.

Why should she have provided Gloria with any information? Shouldn't Gloria being sending in fecal samples to her vet so she knows whats going on in her own collection?

 

[The Reptile House]

This came directly from her-
"The one I did come home with I immediately took to the vet, and after she was healthy, I gave her to a good friend that could and would provide an excellent home for her."

"And after she was healthy" implies that there was something wrong in the vet's eyes to not have given her a 100% clean bill of health at that present time, but no she states "after she was healthy" so what was wrong with her that it took time to get healthy?

Time frame? So all your animals to you are 100% healthy, clear stools, bright eyes, healthy weight, eating/drinking just fine etc. Darn right I would want to know if someone took a purchased animal of mine to the vet to get an observation check done and something came back negative. Yes I would expect to here from that customer immediately not months down the road or never.
It sounds as though she was not that concerned with her "visit" to Desert Dragons or a thread would have been started back then to maybe warn others. No negative feedback was ever left. No thread ever started about her concerns. Till now because she posted some beautifully looking dragons for sale?
Shanell.

 

[Desert Dragons]

Denise said nothing to me when purchasing her dragon. Had she of called or talked to me I was in the process of getting more cages. Most of the dragons were coming out of brumation and I had an overstock of males from the previous year. I have since thinned them out and have new cages too. These are vision cages and can house more than one or two dragons.
She left my house with her dragon and wanted another one when it was old enough to go. I later contacted her when it was ready to go and she said NOTHING to me at the time except that she did not need any more males.
I did not have juvenile females in with adult males. My males and females are separated when of breeding age. Some of my females aren't huge but that is just the size of this line.

 

[Denisebme]

Ok Shanell, what good would it have done for me to speak up. The woman had adult beardies in a cage with an Iguana, a large iguana. She had males in with very small females.
I could have become confrontational with her on her property. Sure. What good would that have done? I did mention it to other breeders, and there is at least one here that can easily tell you that I specifically told her to stay away from Desert Dragons and explained why.
I pick my battles. I've seen what happens when people get into he said/she said on this forum, and I'm not going to do that. I specifically said what I saw with my own eyes. I did not complain about paying money to rescue that baby, that was my choice, I could have walked away.
Other than the fact that this breeder has horrible husbandry practices, I have no beef with her, nor will I engage in any sort of personal battle with you or anyone else.

 

[Denisebme]

Oh, and yes, the dragon did have vet issues. She had a deformed foot and was very undersized for her age. She is still very small.

 

[Denisebme]

That is extremely hard to believe! I am friends with Gloria at Desert Dragons All her dragons are top notch! She will lower her prices immensely if any nips or bites acure but all her cages are very clean and her dragons 100% healthy. She sends pics all the time to me some for sale some holdbacks and they are all great looking, not thin or sick looking at all. I do know that she is a bit overloaded right now, she had a lot breed this year and is in the process of thinning back her dragons greatly which may explain the bit crowded cages you may have seen? I have recommended a lot of people to her when I stopped breeding(some of my stock I got from Gloria) and all of those customers have been really happy with what they received.
Out of curiosity what exactly was wrong with the one you bought? What exactly did the vet state and was this told to Gloria? Was there something visibly wrong with it at the time of purchase?
If you bought it and took it to the vet and there was something defiantly wrong with the dragon I know for a fact that Gloria would have made it right by you, so I am very curious as to exactly what was wrong with the dragon and how it was told to her.
He dragons last time I was there are housed in large vision cages and they are not over crowded. I do know that like I said she is a bit overloaded right now hence all the different adds and lower prices.
I am splitting a both with her at the IRBA in December. Please come by and see her dragons. I know you will not be disappointed!
Sincerely, Shanell.

I saw her set-up way back in March, and I can not be clear enough that she had multiple females, including females much to small for breeding, housed with males. She also had adult dragons housed with a much, much larger green iguana.
Why did I wait 7 months? That's an easy one. I'm very busy, and it had been months since I had the time or energy to log into Fauna. Even after I saw her ads I struggled with the decision to post to the BOI, because doing this, at least to me, is pretty serious and its not something I take lightly.

 

[Denisebme]

Denise said nothing to me when purchasing her dragon. Had she of called or talked to me I was in the process of getting more cages. Most of the dragons were coming out of brumation and I had an overstock of males from the previous year. I have since thinned them out and have new cages too. These are vision cages and can house more than one or two dragons.
She left my house with her dragon and wanted another one when it was old enough to go. I later contacted her when it was ready to go and she said NOTHING to me at the time except that she did not need any more males.
I did not have juvenile females in with adult males. My males and females are separated when of breeding age. Some of my females aren't huge but that is just the size of this line.

No Gloria, I did not want another one, but you're right, I would have taken them all if I could have, and right then. My husband would have killed me though, he was already ticked off that I insisted on buying the one little girl.
Bottom line, you know absolutely that you were housing many dragons together, some very young females with adult males. I'm not sure what you think is breeding age, but some of those females were way to small to be breeding. You also know that you were caging Beardies with a pretty much full sized green Iguana. That is not just bad, its ridiculously bad.
Bottom line, one person is giving me grief because I didn't raise a stink in your home. That said, I saw what I saw, you know what I saw, and nothing you have said here contradicts what I've already said.
You're also well aware that the dragon you sold to me had a deformed foot, something I was unaware of until I showed up to pick her up, and she was incredibly small for 7 months. She was the size of my 3 month old babies.

 

[Denisebme]

Thank you Bill. I was hesitant to post to the BOI because of just this situation, it always seems to get personal and it was not my intention to post a personal attack. I have not had much time, and I hadn't logged on for months. When I saw the ads, I had to say something because people are going to be buying these animals and they need to make an informed choice.
This baby was not "sick", she was undersized and had an issue with one of her feet that needed to be cared for. I kept her until June while I looked for an appropriate home for her, and she's doing very, very well now. She's still very small, but she is sweet and well loved.
I'm a serious hobbyist and I take my own husbandry very seriously. I personally know many other hobbyists and breeders, and I've never seen a situation like this before.

 

[Junkyard]

Oh, and yes, the dragon did have vet issues. She had a deformed foot and was very undersized for her age. She is still very small.

If this dragon had a deformed foot and was undersize, why did you go ahead with the purchase? I see no reason to come and note that the animal was in a poor condition when you went out to the house and picked it up.

You're also well aware that the dragon you sold to me had a deformed foot, something I was unaware of until I showed up to pick her up, and she was incredibly small for 7 months. She was the size of my 3 month old babies.

At this point you could have walked away.

Do you know for a fact that they kept a male in with a lot of juvenile females? I own a few dragons, but I have not been around them enough to be able to look at one and tell if it is a male or female without lifting the tails.

Thank you Bill. I was hesitant to post to the BOI because of just this situation, it always seems to get personal and it was not my intention to post a personal attack.

This is a personal attack, you came here to complain about the husbandry of another person. It was your decision to bring this up, thus you will be questioned emensly over this. Right now it is one persons word against another.

I do not condone the keeping of iguanas with dragons, there is no reason for that to happen since cages are so inexpensive nowadays. Heck a 4 x 4 x 2 foot cage can cost $60 in materials and 45 minutes to put together. If their is no more space for a cage, then it is time to stop buying and breeding, or move out.

 

[The Reptile House]

Sorry waiting this long to say something bothers me. May be just me but what can I say. And you asked her when you were there to let you know later if it turned out to be a female on top of the way you felt.
Posting anything on the BOI now days does result in a battle he said she said I highly agree with you there, you certainly got what you expected but I had to speak up, sorry.
I have been in many homes and business that have horrible practices, bottom line you say thanks but I will pass. You only feed into the so called problem if you do, sorry. Feeling sorry for the reptiles or not. It is hard to pass sure as heck it is but people really need to speak up and say something. Not at the place of business I like you would not have done that you sure do not want anything to ever happen when you do not know who you are dealing with( By the way I am not referring to Gloria she would NEVER have gotten into it with you she is not that type of person) Other yes!
However if it bothered you that much a e-mail to her when you got back home or comming here on the BOI should have been done when this happened, you should have made the time to do so busy or not and made it awair of when it happened.
It is still hard for me to believe this really did happen, granted I was not there in March and yes it is your word there is nothing I can do to 100% say no.
Gloria is a great person 100% honest and I bet if you offered your oppinion at that time via e-mail , phone or on the BOI she would have taken it to hart and would have taken your opinion on how to better things OR better yet told you why!
When I met her she was fresh into things I helped her out a lot and got her into vending at shows with us, she has grown a lot along the way.
Ok so you say she had multipal dragons housed together. They were healthy
though correct, just small? Cages were clean? That is probably a yes for both since you did not mention anything like that.
She is down to only seven breeders when I spoke with her today and some older juvinals and some babies that will more than likely be at the show.
Ok the Iguana thing ya sure your not supposed to mix stuff but giving that a lot of people sure do a lot of it these days, that set aside though.
Her cages are huge enough to house many dragons together and she stated on here that she was in the process of getting more in.
Was this more than likely a fluke that when you were there things may have been a bit clustered due to this? Sure because I will state again this is not how she runs things! She takes great pride in what she does. She is a stand up gal and I will back her up any time with her dragons.

You know a lot of people are just like her. Heat goes down in cages, you have more take than expected and are over run, you have to double up till you can get things fixed. Do you know how many people this has happened to, A lot. A lot of people have been in that same boat, that does not make them bad people enough to bash them here on the BOI.
Bottom line:
You did not ask why so many were housed together, if you did she would have told you that right there and then, case closed she has fixed the so called problem you had with her. She got her new cages in, has cut down her stock etc.
I really think people need to see this as a oversight and that she was correcting the problem and it was in process the whole time you were there. You took it the wrong way and with not speaking up have given her a bad rap for something she was awair of the intire time.
Even with this here I still know she would invite you back to view her dragons any time and it would not be what you saw.
Sincerely Shanell.

And just to let you know when I was breeding dragons I had runts as well and they do grow at a much smaller pace, hay it happens to all of us. Being undersized and having a deformed foot does not mean that she was not healthy, she just had a foot and size issue. When they get injured they slow down, they try and heal them selves not go 90 miles an hour to keep up with the rest. You made it sound like she was sick with something when it turn she was pretty much fine for what she was!