Difficult Questions...

[Seamus Haley]

Yeah... difficult questions. Ones which might not be answered. Ones which might be a little insulting even though it's not my intention in asking them... Ones which will probably get people kinda angry at me too but... I think they're worth asking because I think the answers might be important.

Rich, are you sick of running/owning Fauna? I know that it's a full time job unto itself that you do in addition to your actual full time occupation, I know it's gotta be a frustrating balancing act that nobody could ever completely catch up to and... I know your attitude towards the site seems to have shifted rather signifigantly so I ask... are you just finally at the end of your rope when it comes to dealing with Fauna headaches? When I registered there was conflict, there was drama, there were site issues and crisis that seemed as if they were the most important thing to ever happen... and you handled it all with a kind of aplomb. You dealt with series issues seriously but you didn't seem to equate serious with personal and didn't *appear* to become so emotionally invested that you were left drained and bitterly apathetic to what you were doing- now you do. Come across that way sometimes anyway; asking things like "Is fauna worth it?" You used to know the answer. You knew you were doing something right, something good and something that had a beneficial impact on an entire industry. You knew how, you knew why and you really were unto yourself a sort of ethical superhero- stopping wrongdoers for the good of the innocent and helping the righteous live better. Kind of an idealized version of it obviously and the nitty-gritty often looked a lot uglier but those WERE and ARE the results. It's impossible to gauge how many people you have saved from wasting money with crooks, how many two bit cons were squashed before they became bigtime cons and how many GOOD PEOPLE have seen their hard worth and proper approach grow into a signifigant business because the truth was spread about them here.

So stuff like is Fauna worth it... HELL YES! There really needs to be some word to describe absolute positive assurance with more strength... Absolutely, unequivically without question, dissenting opinion or the slightest microscopic possibility for any deviation... Fauna is worth it.

Now another tough and unpleasant question. I'm a kinda suspicious bastard and sometimes wonder about certain conclusions which can be drawn if one looks at a situation in a pessimistic way. So... There's a kind of timeline that I have in my head which may or may not be accurate because there are plenty of factors I don't and can't see- which may be the problem. I sign up for Fauna and get to "know" Crusader for Justice and the American Way Rich. A man who knew right from wrong and stood up for it. He stuck around for years right through Crusader for Justice versus Evil Empire where the tyrranical overlord ruling with an iron fist wasn't going to goosestep his way into freedomtown. And it was settled out of court. For an undisclosed amount. Then Crusader for Justice Rich started a time share with that guy who had to ask if Fauna was worth it... The one that's considering charging for the BOI.

I think I have expressed a time or two in the past... I love this site. It represents something bigger than itself and while not everyone may see it that way; I know I am not alone in this view. I've been a lot more confused lately about things I used to be sure about though and there are questions where they didn't used to exist. Here's another tough one... Why is the BOI the useful tool that it is? The answer is definitely not because it charges people who have already lost money on a bad transaction in order for them to go report it. The false login names have never *really* been a problem, anytime anyone tried anything signifigant with one of them (like defending themselves under an assumed name or causing fights) it has ALWAYS been found out. The whole... enough rope to climb out of the hole or enough rope to hang themselves line. Remember it? I do.

So I got to thinking about site costs... they've been an issue lately that's been public. Hard to avoid the topic. The banner advertisers are lined up around the block and there's a waiting list (you really should add another banner slot or two by the way) I've been thinking about donations and bandwdith costs and server space and software upgrades. All that seems to come pretty close to balancing out. Maybe a little money in one direction or another but no signifigant new costs that were not met with additional revenue to keep it, if not profitable, at least not a more signifigant loss than it ever had been before. Except one. There's this unknown additional site related cost in the form of a lawsuit settlement. Is it a big cost? I have no concrete evidence of this but around the same time it was incurred I know I saw a lot more talk about how much it costs to operate Fauna. So I've got these nagging suspicions that lead to conclusions that I don't like.

At this point I'm kind of expecting to be told "None of your damn business." which would be a perfectly legitimate answer if it weren't for the fact that I am being asked for money (Money which I haven't given incidentally, boo at me now). So here comes the REALLY unpleasant question that probably will make me unwelcome here... Rich, how much did you pay to settle that thing? Did you also have to agree to non-disclosure of the specifics? Would you at least be able to tell me (and I guess others) if that settlement is a signifigant portion of the "cost to run fauna" that's being mentioned in all these donation drives and that prompted the user fee discussions? And honestly more importantly... is it a signifigant part of the stress that has caused the change in how you vocally approach site ownership? Would it be waaaaaay out of line to ask to see some specific numbers about server rental costs and banner ad revenue or just how much those donations have added up to... and maybe what the settlement amount was?

There might be a lot of little solutions to little problems. Stuff like multiple logins... that's an easy fix, you have this pool of thousands of registered users who would be happy to back you up with some moderation capabilities should you choose to allow them to. You just have to take your pick (Not me, never me... I'd be a bad moderator and it's NOT what I am suggesting) out of the contestants and get the one(s) who would moderate in the manner users have come to know and respect from your team. A fee isn't the way to solve *that* problem at all and it's... inappropriate... to suggest that it's a reason for considering such a drastic action.

It sounds kinda out of character for me to be asking this but really the one potentially unpleasant question I have to ask... Are you doing alright Rich? 'cause to a casual observer who knows you only through reputation and this site... You don't seem like you are so much. Which leads to a question that IS valid... and that is "Is fauna worth it at the cost of someone's health and general well being?" and that's a tough one to answer. Even tougher to answer in a public forum.

So... with all that said... I am legitimately concerned even if it seems out of character for me to be so (Apparantly I have a kind of reputation) and I ask these things because I think the answers are important. If any answers are approached with the same attitude... It won't hurt and might just help a few things with all these confused and concerned (I'm not the only one, read those subscription threads) members. I may also have insulted someone. I do it accidently sometimes (and intentionally at others) so I'll apologize for that right now I guess... 'cause it's almost guaranteed that *someone* will read what I have written above the wrong way and want to punch me (hopefully not someone important). I suppose I should also express the idea that... maybe *maybe* this thread could avoid turning into a circus at least until after the people (person really, although there are a few mods who's honest input would be most welcome) who I was addressing get a chance to read it and decide if and how they want to respond?

 

[Lucille]

Specific financial and health questions are not usually matters of public discussion, Seamus. I am not trying to answer questions for Rich; I am saying that I think a public post like this is a little over the line.

 

[DaveyFig]

I think if you are going to beg for money then it is your responsibility to answer questions as to where the money is going, and why it is so desperately needed.
Will cornsnakes.com see any of the money people donate to Fauna? Will Herpenue? What about the arms site? Any of them other than Fauna? They are all on the same server right?
Is the money that is being asked for actually going to be used to pay for a legal battle/settlement for a site name that was used for the purpose of personal entertainment?
I think it is everyones business to know before they donate where it is going.
I would be more than willing to donate if the intentions are layid out in advance. Like giving to the guy with the sign that says "I'm not gonna lie, I want a beer". I have given to the "Homeless-Will work for food" types before too, and usually the next time I see them, they have their 40 oz.

 

[Lonermon]

I think if you are going to beg for money then it is your responsibility to answer questions as to where the money is going, and why it is so desperately needed.

i disagree . i think that anyone that owns/ operates a sight has the option to make it free or fee based .and i dont feel that they have to justufy themselves . at least hes being considerate enough to ask . he could juat have made it a pay site without bothering to ask . alot of reptile sights arent free . you either choose to pay it or choose not to . but thats jsut my opinion . :scatter:

 

[WebSlave]

Yeah... difficult questions. Ones which might not be answered. Ones which might be a little insulting even though it's not my intention in asking them... Ones which will probably get people kinda angry at me too but... I think they're worth asking because I think the answers might be important.

Rich, are you sick of running/owning Fauna? I know that it's a full time job unto itself that you do in addition to your actual full time occupation, I know it's gotta be a frustrating balancing act that nobody could ever completely catch up to and... I know your attitude towards the site seems to have shifted rather signifigantly so I ask... are you just finally at the end of your rope when it comes to dealing with Fauna headaches? When I registered there was conflict, there was drama, there were site issues and crisis that seemed as if they were the most important thing to ever happen... and you handled it all with a kind of aplomb. You dealt with series issues seriously but you didn't seem to equate serious with personal and didn't *appear* to become so emotionally invested that you were left drained and bitterly apathetic to what you were doing- now you do. Come across that way sometimes anyway; asking things like "Is fauna worth it?" You used to know the answer. You knew you were doing something right, something good and something that had a beneficial impact on an entire industry. You knew how, you knew why and you really were unto yourself a sort of ethical superhero- stopping wrongdoers for the good of the innocent and helping the righteous live better. Kind of an idealized version of it obviously and the nitty-gritty often looked a lot uglier but those WERE and ARE the results. It's impossible to gauge how many people you have saved from wasting money with crooks, how many two bit cons were squashed before they became bigtime cons and how many GOOD PEOPLE have seen their hard worth and proper approach grow into a signifigant business because the truth was spread about them here.

In answer to your question about being "sick of running/owning FaunaClassifieds": Yes, sometimes. The pay sucks for the time and effort I have put into it. It is a sinkhole for money out of my pocket. How long have I been doing this? Well figure it out and tell me YOU would have done it. And then tell me you would want to KEEP on doing it until you drop.

The "attitude" comes and goes. Sometimes the burden feels heavier then at other times. Sometimes I have other things to do that this *free* exercise infringes on. Sometimes I find myself being short of temper with my wife and not able to give time to her that I should because I am sitting in front of the computer for THIS site. And when I am asked WHY I am doing it, sometimes I really don't have a satisfactory answer.

Is Fauna worth it? Sometimes. Is it going to be worth it for me to be doing this with no appreciable return on my time and efforts? No, not any longer. To give you an example, just the other day I was offered a contract to maintain a number of websites for someone. That was a *paying* contract. I turned it down, because I knew that I would not have the time to do the job effectively. Because of the time constraints THIS site takes of me. Is that a smart thing for me to do? Is that a logical thing for me to do? From a business standpoint, is it the BEST thing for me to do? You tell me....

I don't know, perhaps I am more the Don Quixote then any make believe superhero. It's not like in the movies, where the good guy always wins, you know. So why should I be burning out parts of my life if most of the people believe that I am obligated to do it all for their sake for nothing in return? Anyone else lining up to do something like that here?

So yeah, people saved money because this site I run kept them from making a mistake. This site helped point out people that may very well have taken LOTS of people for a ride. But yet when I start suggesting that maybe I need to start charging something as a return on my efforts, I get grilled over it and third degreed over my "motives"? Next few threads, let's see you all line up and tell me what YOU personally have done to help ANY industry at all. To help any bunch of people you have never met, by taking money out of your pocket, time out of your life, and your own efforts to do so.

So stuff like is Fauna worth it... HELL YES! There really needs to be some word to describe absolute positive assurance with more strength... Absolutely, unequivically without question, dissenting opinion or the slightest microscopic possibility for any deviation... Fauna is worth it.

Sure it is! Uh well, as long as it is *free* of course. As long as someone else is footing the bill, right? That is the signal I am getting from quite a few people here. That they will leave if they have to help foot the bills. That it is not *right* for me to want to get a little something in return for my efforts. Does that sound like the way you interpret this as well? Hell, most people are not even involved enough to even GIVE their opinion and are probably thinking, "Hell it doesn't matter to me either way. If this site folds up, big deal, there are others out there where I can get my jollies."

Now another tough and unpleasant question. I'm a kinda suspicious bastard and sometimes wonder about certain conclusions which can be drawn if one looks at a situation in a pessimistic way. So... There's a kind of timeline that I have in my head which may or may not be accurate because there are plenty of factors I don't and can't see- which may be the problem. I sign up for Fauna and get to "know" Crusader for Justice and the American Way Rich. A man who knew right from wrong and stood up for it. He stuck around for years right through Crusader for Justice versus Evil Empire where the tyrranical overlord ruling with an iron fist wasn't going to goosestep his way into freedomtown. And it was settled out of court. For an undisclosed amount. Then Crusader for Justice Rich started a time share with that guy who had to ask if Fauna was worth it... The one that's considering charging for the BOI.

The details of that settlement, of course, are private. But I will say this, however. Jeff and I felt it best to settle our differences for the sake of this industry as a whole. We had a face to face and I think we were both just bull headed and let the whole thing run way too long, way too far. Jeff gave a little, and I gave a little, and it was ended on that note. I have dropped the ball on this, because Jeff had prepared a public statement to the effect of this ending of the hostilities, and I just have not taken the time to fill in the blanks on my part of it. So no, THIS situation has nothing at all to do with that incident. As a matter of fact, if that incident were still ongoing, I would have felt it foolish for me to change much on this site at all until it had ended.

But I will say this. Maybe that incident opened my eyes up a little bit. It showed me that here are fights that I may still have to fight because of this site that would have me digging into my pockets ever deeper. That, of course, led to the logical conclusion that I really do not want to be placed in that position having to rely solely on the money I have coming in from elsewhere if there is that jeopardy hanging over my head from my having this site. Point blank: Do I really want to have to spend the money out of solely my own pocket if I am sued from someone because I refuse to remove a thread that is (in their opinion) defamatory to them? Well, why should I? Why should I have to make sure I have enough of my own money salted away to be able to weather something like that? There are a lot of other things I would much rather do with my own money, I think. So no, I am not willing to back up everyone else if they are not going to back me up as well.

I think I have expressed a time or two in the past... I love this site. It represents something bigger than itself and while not everyone may see it that way; I know I am not alone in this view. I've been a lot more confused lately about things I used to be sure about though and there are questions where they didn't used to exist. Here's another tough one... Why is the BOI the useful tool that it is? The answer is definitely not because it charges people who have already lost money on a bad transaction in order for them to go report it. The false login names have never *really* been a problem, anytime anyone tried anything signifigant with one of them (like defending themselves under an assumed name or causing fights) it has ALWAYS been found out. The whole... enough rope to climb out of the hole or enough rope to hang themselves line. Remember it? I do.

Oh really? How do you know what goes on behind the scenes? How many threats myself and the moderators get? The number of times we have to scan IP addresses and chase down suspicions. That time is all for free too, right? We ALL enjoy receiving threats against us and our loved ones just so this site can be here, right? No, sorry, you really don't know simply because we don't advertise those things publicly. Nor should we.

So I got to thinking about site costs... they've been an issue lately that's been public. Hard to avoid the topic. The banner advertisers are lined up around the block and there's a waiting list (you really should add another banner slot or two by the way) I've been thinking about donations and bandwdith costs and server space and software upgrades. All that seems to come pretty close to balancing out. Maybe a little money in one direction or another but no signifigant new costs that were not met with additional revenue to keep it, if not profitable, at least not a more signifigant loss than it ever had been before. Except one. There's this unknown additional site related cost in the form of a lawsuit settlement. Is it a big cost? I have no concrete evidence of this but around the same time it was incurred I know I saw a lot more talk about how much it costs to operate Fauna. So I've got these nagging suspicions that lead to conclusions that I don't like.

No. You are under a misconception. There was exactly ONE point back in June of this past year, I think, when I stopped taking banner ads in order to maintain a certain level of impressions for all of the advertisers currently displaying ads here. That ended sometime in July, I believe, and has never been repeated. So no, there is NO backlog of people on a waiting list to have their banner ads here.

Quite frankly, I will not discuss details of my expenditures, simply because that is private information. I would not discuss my SerpenCo business either with anyone, simply because it is not prudent to do so. When I worked as an employee, I learned pretty quickly that you just do not discuss your salary with anyone at all. It just is not something that is done.

And quite frankly, if someone feels that I need to make such an accounting and then develop a forumula where by I say I need X amount of dollars over and above my expenditures and that will be my "salary" for running this site, well forget it. That is not your place to demand that of me. If you believe that it is, then you are quite welcome to hit the road and go elsewhere, because our beliefs have now diverged dramatically.

As for the settlement question, again, those details are private. But I will tell you that no, there is nothing directly there financially that is playing a part in what I am now asking in relation to the membership fees. There were attorney's fees, of course, but they are water over the dam right now. However, as a side note, it did give me an idea of what to expect if I am involved in another lawsuit, so perhaps there was a slight influence in my line of thinking about what I am willing to offer this site from myself in the future.

At this point I'm kind of expecting to be told "None of your damn business." which would be a perfectly legitimate answer if it weren't for the fact that I am being asked for money (Money which I haven't given incidentally, boo at me now). So here comes the REALLY unpleasant question that probably will make me unwelcome here... Rich, how much did you pay to settle that thing? Did you also have to agree to non-disclosure of the specifics? Would you at least be able to tell me (and I guess others) if that settlement is a signifigant portion of the "cost to run fauna" that's being mentioned in all these donation drives and that prompted the user fee discussions? And honestly more importantly... is it a signifigant part of the stress that has caused the change in how you vocally approach site ownership? Would it be waaaaaay out of line to ask to see some specific numbers about server rental costs and banner ad revenue or just how much those donations have added up to... and maybe what the settlement amount was?

No you are not being asked for money. You are being told that there is the possibility that you may have to pay a fee in order to utilize some functions of this site in the future. If it happens, you can choose to do so or not.

And you are asking mutually exclusive questions. If the agreement is subject to non-disclosure (which it is), then I cannot answer much about your questions concerning such agreement. But I will tell you, again, that this membership fee thing has nothing at all to do with that settlement.

And yes, you are way out of line asking to see those figures. If you feel you need to do so before participating in any program I run here that requires your paying a fee in order to do so, you are welcome to not participate and use that as the reason for your not doing so. But I do have to ask you, Seamus, simply because I just don't remember, but all of the years you have been on this site, exactly HOW MUCH have you donated here to help out? Ball park figure, now, because I don't expect you to remember exactly either. But if this site is as valuable and important as you have stated, tell me, what exactly have YOU done to help promote and support it from a financial perspective.

There might be a lot of little solutions to little problems. Stuff like multiple logins... that's an easy fix, you have this pool of thousands of registered users who would be happy to back you up with some moderation capabilities should you choose to allow them to. You just have to take your pick (Not me, never me... I'd be a bad moderator and it's NOT what I am suggesting) out of the contestants and get the one(s) who would moderate in the manner users have come to know and respect from your team. A fee isn't the way to solve *that* problem at all and it's... inappropriate... to suggest that it's a reason for considering such a drastic action.

Maybe. But if I have said this once, I have said this HUNDREDS of times: I am not willing to just grab people willy-nilly and give them the authority to be moderators on this site. I have been around the circuit way too long to have ignored the fact that some sites have had severe problems caused by personality conflicts between their own moderators. I am EXTREMELY cautious about who I pick and when I pick them. MANY problems will be caused simply by having too many of them around to where they become obtrusive and intrusive. That is just not my way, and I am not about to change that. I would rather have NO moderators then too many of them, or some that would cause me more headaches in the long run. The people I have picked now are top notch, in my opinion, and I am proud to have them here. If I decide to add more, they will be of the same caliber.

As for your opinion of more moderators being an effective solution to multiple logons and such in an ex post facto fashion, rather then a fee based system to help weed them out at the entranceway, I just disagree. The former takes the time and effort of the moderators or myself to track them down and remove them. The latter nips it in the bud before it happens. This should be elementary logic.

It sounds kinda out of character for me to be asking this but really the one potentially unpleasant question I have to ask... Are you doing alright Rich? 'cause to a casual observer who knows you only through reputation and this site... You don't seem like you are so much. Which leads to a question that IS valid... and that is "Is fauna worth it at the cost of someone's health and general well being?" and that's a tough one to answer. Even tougher to answer in a public forum.

Good question. Maybe I'm not sure of the answer myself. Perhaps I am looking for that answer and think that my suggestion is the pill I need for the cure. I really don't know. Will my finding some extra $$ in my pockets at the end of the year help make the burden easier to bear? I really can't answer that until I try it, I guess. But I do know, that the fact that I am doing this, and have been doing this, for nothing more then maybe break even is not going to go on forever. And anyone else who would say that they would be willing to do it is not dancing with reality or truthfullness.

So... with all that said... I am legitimately concerned even if it seems out of character for me to be so (Apparantly I have a kind of reputation) and I ask these things because I think the answers are important. If any answers are approached with the same attitude... It won't hurt and might just help a few things with all these confused and concerned (I'm not the only one, read those subscription threads) members. I may also have insulted someone. I do it accidently sometimes (and intentionally at others) so I'll apologize for that right now I guess... 'cause it's almost guaranteed that *someone* will read what I have written above the wrong way and want to punch me (hopefully not someone important). I suppose I should also express the idea that... maybe *maybe* this thread could avoid turning into a circus at least until after the people (person really, although there are a few mods who's honest input would be most welcome) who I was addressing get a chance to read it and decide if and how they want to respond?

I've had thoughts that it will come to this point sooner or later for a long time. Matter of fact, it may even have been approached back during the "BOI version 1" long ago. It is only now that I really think it is feasible to implement because much of it can be done automatically without my manual intervention. Such a program in place where I would have to handle manually would have been an incredible nightmare. Certainly one that I would not take on, and didn't, simply because of that fact.

So to answer your question: Am I alright? Depends on how you define that word, I suppose. If it means that I think the way you want me to think, then no, I am not alright. If it means that I am this hypothetical "super hero" of herpdom that is willing to battle evil at all costs (out of my own pocket), put up with every bit of crap thrown his way and continue smiling about it, take threats of violence and lawsuits with a hearty laugh and a thunderous roar of defiance, and basically be this mythical person willing to do all of this out of my own pocket, giving up my own time, and putting in my own efforts, basically alone, then no, I am not "alright".

Sorry about any errors of punctuation and spelling in the above, but I have spent quite enough of my time on this, thank you, and am NOT going to proof read it.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Specific financial and health questions are not usually matters of public discussion, Seamus. I am not trying to answer questions for Rich; I am saying that I think a public post like this is a little over the line.

And if I gave a rat's ass what you thought Lucille, I might have asked your opinion before posting it. But as it stands now I think it is VERY MUCH a matter of public discussion- I've been told that server and bandwidth costs aren't all that high, even for a site with as much traffic as fauna. I have no idea if that's true or not... If Rich is counting the settlement over kingsnakes.com as being an operating cost for Fauna... It matters. It matters in the way the money gathering is approached, it matters in what people are told it is going towards. This is doubly true of donations which have been made (and would be less so if the site were simply made a pay site).

Respect for Rich does not mean his actions can never be questioned. Quite the opposite, I respect the man enough to ask him what the hell is going on that's causing such drastic changes in his behavior and approach towards the site. This is instead of just assuming I know and running around exclaiming that he's collecting money with fraudulent explainations and trying to get the IRS to audit every penny that Fauna has brought in against it's operational costs (which would be the actions of a disrespectful person).

 

[WebSlave]

I think if you are going to beg for money then it is your responsibility to answer questions as to where the money is going, and why it is so desperately needed.

You, sir, are under a misconception. I am not "begging" for money. I am stating a proposal I am considering whereby YOU and everyone else will have a choice to make. You can either pay a fee that I determine appropriate in order to take advantage of certain functions of this site, or not. If you choose "not" then those functions will no longer be available to you. There will be no "begging" on my part about this at all. You can either do it or not.

Will cornsnakes.com see any of the money people donate to Fauna? Will Herpenue? What about the arms site? Any of them other than Fauna? They are all on the same server right?

Most of my sites are all on the same server. So? I have 2 terabytes of bandwidth per month allocated that comes free with my server lease. So I am not spending anything extra for them to be here. And even if I were, so what? Many members there also take part in this site anyway, so what is the point of making a distinction.

As for the arms site, yep that is on the same server as this one. So? None of them come even close to needing the resources that this site does, so they are inconsequential in any discussion about what I am doing on this site.

And what the heck is "Herpenue" anyway?

Is the money that is being asked for actually going to be used to pay for a legal battle/settlement for a site name that was used for the purpose of personal entertainment?

Personal entertainment? Well, whatever. But to answer your question, no.

I think it is everyones business to know before they donate where it is going.
I would be more than willing to donate if the intentions are layid out in advance. Like giving to the guy with the sign that says "I'm not gonna lie, I want a beer". I have given to the "Homeless-Will work for food" types before too, and usually the next time I see them, they have their 40 oz.

That is your opinion that is not shared with me. If anyone feels that donating a few bucks gives them the right to dig through my financial statements, then I suggest they take a hike. If that is a requirement of your donating to this site, again, take a hike.

You've been here since October 2002, Dave. Let me ask you: What have YOU done to help out here financially? Or do I need to get one of those "Homeless-Will work for food" signs myself in order to catch your attention?

You only have 261 posts logged in all of that time you have been here, so let me ask you this: What help have you given in even helping out this site with your expertise in the discussion forums or elsewhere that would benefit other people here?

Just curious, to know what platform you are standing on when you make these implied accusations, you know?

 

[Seamus Haley]

Probably best to just ignore the majority of the post above. Rich's response wasn't posted when I wrote it and he addressed everything. Except the contempt I hold for Lucille, that part can stay.

 

[Seamus Haley]

That'd be the majority of MY post above... he got another one in while I wasn't looking.

 

[WebSlave]

And if I gave a rat's ass what you thought Lucille, I might have asked your opinion before posting it. But as it stands now I think it is VERY MUCH a matter of public discussion- I've been told that server and bandwidth costs aren't all that high, even for a site with as much traffic as fauna. I have no idea if that's true or not... If Rich is counting the settlement over kingsnakes.com as being an operating cost for Fauna... It matters. It matters in the way the money gathering is approached, it matters in what people are told it is going towards. This is doubly true of donations which have been made (and would be less so if the site were simply made a pay site).

Respect for Rich does not mean his actions can never be questioned. Quite the opposite, I respect the man enough to ask him what the hell is going on that's causing such drastic changes in his behavior and approach towards the site. This is instead of just assuming I know and running around exclaiming that he's collecting money with fraudulent explainations and trying to get the IRS to audit every penny that Fauna has brought in against it's operational costs (which would be the actions of a disrespectful person).

Let me be a bit more blunt to you, Seamus, since you are now taking that approach with another member here.

It really is none of your damned business. If I wanted to charge everyone a fee to even step foot in this site, then it would be my right to do so. If I wanted to turn this site into one dedicated to sexual relationships between humans and animals, then yes, I could do that too.

I am running this by you all because I want to know some opinions. But if you all believe it was an invitation to grill me and cross examine my motives, then beat it. I don't feel that I have to put up with yet another insult from someone.

Perhaps, just perhaps, that it is the cumulative strain of dealing with people who act much like you do on this site that is causing this change in attitude you are seeing in me. Imagine that? Gee, what a revelation! My dealing with people with attitudes is giving ME an attitude?

So there you go, Seamus. You have as much of an answer as you are going to get. You can either like it or not. It really doesn't matter either way to me. And I am quite done with the explanations and fending off the barbed innuendoes about my motives from some backseat drivers.

If I decide on the fees I have been discussing, then you have your own choices to make in response. Period.

 

[DaveyFig]

I am sorry, you are right Rich. You have not begged for money from anyone, only allowed Lucille to do the begging on the BOI. I should have put more thought into my post.
I also thought that at some point herpvenue( sorry for the herpenue typo) was yours. My bad.
As for what I have done for this site. Not a whole lot. I have added my thoughts to posts where I felt I had something to say. Maybe I should have posted more?
I have spent no money on animal purchases through this site, and am on a very low budget, but did send you 90 dollars that I didn't get recognized for, because at the time, you weren't offering contributor coins. I guess donations only count when you ask for them. 90 bucks is about 10% of my total amount I have spent on online animal purchases. Maybe its not much as just 90 bucks, but how many here can say they have sent you 10% of their animal purchases.
Also, was it not me that clued you into what Alan was doing in the admin section? Did you not call me and say that was going to be kept hush hush? Then the next day you posted the email that I sent in confidence?Although I haven't been here much financially, I felt that telling you something that was going on that might effect your suit might be thought of as help. I guess I was wrong.
I agree that my wording about begging was out of line. I misspoke. I also thought I couls share my opinion, but my "platform " is aparently not padded enough.

 

[WebSlave]

Well, since you brought up that email, I have to admit that I have my suspicions about it. The thought had crossed my mind that it was supposed to get to me. If Alan would try to shake down Jeff for something in return for giving him this supposed information, then certainly I don't think he would shirk from trying to shake me down in order to keep it from Jeff, now would he?

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Why would Alan have confided something like that to a couple of people that any reasonable person would have kept private?

BTW, you said I posted that email? Yes I did. In the private moderator's forum. So?

Oh well, no matter. That's all past history anyway. I'm not really interested in talking about Alan Hall anyway and am not going to waste any more of my time even thinking about him and that incident.

=============

And yes, you did give a donation for $90. I had forgotten. But that was back in March of 2003, so excuse me if that was far enough back for it to slip my memory. But thank you for the donation and thank you for reminding me. I certainly do believe I thanked you for it, which was all the recognition anyone got for their donations at the time. The icon you now see was a later development, which you know about, and was not applied retroactively. So I am not sure what the point of your barb is about when you quip they only apply when asked for. Even so, making a donation does not give anyone a permanent icon for their posts.

And as far as Lucille is concerned, she volunteered to try to drum up financial support for this site and approached me about it. I NEVER solicited that sort of assistance from her. Are you seriously suggesting that I should have turned that down? That I should have said, "Heck no, Lucille! So many people are throwing money at me that I certainly don't need any more financial help here!" I am certain you would have done that in my shoes, right?

So Dave, if you don't like my plan I am considering, that is OK with me. You don't have to take part it in, you know. I expect that I will lose some people if I implement it, and I am quite prepared for that eventuality.

Heck, now that I think of it, maybe a general admission fee isn't such a bad idea after all....

 

[DaveyFig]

Rich, I wasn't trying to toot my insignificant little horn by saying what I had done. I have done very little, and admit that. I simple answered your questions of me.
I wholeheartedly agree that something HAS to be done, and it HAS to be done now to get money into the Fauna budget. If a fee for use is the only option, why not go ahead and impelement it? Why even allow the poll to run its course if it is inevitable? If 80% of people say they don't agree with it, will you not implement the fee? If it has to be done, it has to be done, and I will be one of the people paying. I think there are other options, but I don't know what kind of time limit you have.
I know that when money is sent to you, you will make the best decisions for the use of the money. I said that when I donated the money I got back from Neil. I just thought that if it was explained to the mases what the money was to be used for, then more people would be understanding of the situation.
You might get more "Oh, I understand that, here's my 35 bucks" than "Screw that I'm not paying to read a forum" if it were outlined. I do understand that it is private though.
Not that it even matters, and I don't know why I am typing this, but at one time , just prior to me donating, there was a list of people who donated at the top of the BOI. Then I donated, and the list was gone because some people didn't want recognition. I don't care for the recognition either, but it comes in handy when you don't have a contributors icon and someone says "What have you done?" If i had given 5 dollars a year for the next 18 years, I would have an icon. But I gave it all at once, and at that time, the largest donation on the public list , even by a business was 100 bucks.

 

[WebSlave]

Dave,

I am running this as long as it takes for me to get as much feedback as possible and for me to chew on the idea as long as possible before I made a decision. I don't have a timeline. This just pops to the forefront of my conscisousness every now and again like a fly that you just can't hit with the flyswatter.

I have known this is needed for a long time, but the technology behind the message board just wasn't capable of assisting me. Now it is, but the question still remains, "is it time?"

Some people are saying, "Sure you are worthy of being paid for your efforts here, but charge someone else! Don't charge for what I want to use!" Charging more for banner ads will cause advertisers to leave. So where am I then? Charge solely for classifieds placed here will just nip that growth in the bud too, so where will I be then? Just charging a fee for the sake of dumming up income is not good enough for me to be able to justify it. I need a way to better control the posts that are made on the BOI as well as people posting classifieds on this site to keep them all above board as much as possible. As far as I have been able to determine, THIS is the only way that can be accomplished. And I have been thinking about this dilemma for a darned long time.

To be honest, if I do go with this plan and I find that only a meagre minority of people feel that it is worth spending $10 on, and the BOI as well as the site dies because of it, then hell, GOOD RIDDANCE! If it is just not worth it to the majority of the people here to keep it alive, then it is not worth it to me either. I don't know how I can spell it out any plainer then that.

Should I have just implemented this and surprised everyone overnight? Heck, I don't know. Sure would have saved me a bunch of time writing all of these replies lately. But I just feel that I need to explain my reasoning so people will understand WHY I do something. I don't expect everyone to agree, and even against real good arguments I may still feel the way I do. Maybe the time isn't NOW, but sooner or later there is no avoiding this.

 

[reptilebreeder]

So yeah, people saved money because this site I run kept them from making a mistake. This site helped point out people that may very well have taken LOTS of people for a ride. But yet when I start suggesting that maybe I need to start charging something as a return on my efforts, I get grilled over it and third degreed over my "motives"? Next few threads, let's see you all line up and tell me what YOU personally have done to help ANY industry at all. To help any bunch of people you have never met, by taking money out of your pocket, time out of your life, and your own efforts to do so.

Well, this is like the 4th or 5th related thread where I let everyone know that I would pay a membership fee, and left it at that. I feel I need to add additional opinions as it relates to these threads. That is, I personally am getting tired of the large number of people who say.

1. It is a great site and I potentially saved a bunch of money by checking out the BOI, but since it's always been free I would leave if money was charged.

2. I'm too poor, I don't have the money..........etc.
and related comments.

I think it's all crap. Like many people here I am way short of money, I did not add one single herp to my collection this whole past year. Did not "save" myself from being ripped-off, by using the BOI, because I didn't purchase anything. I still donated $10 just because this is an awesome site, then forked out another $25 and became a contributing member.

People are saying, I'm too poor to pay...........yet they came here to check out the BOI, cause they didn't want to get ripped-off........which is it? you're poor or you are spending money on herps. Boils down to, you are either to f........ cheap or feel the BOI is some god given right that you should be able to use for free to save yourself money from being ripped off.

Come on people we are talking about $10 or maybe $30 a year. The price of a 12 pack or two (how much is beer? I drink rather infrequently, so not to sure). The price of 1 or 2 movie tickets, or a coule magazines.

So or get off the pot.

As far as thinking that a fee will change the BOI, like many I have expressed some of these same concerns. So I can see that side of the "arguement", given that this is Rich's site if he determines that a fee is indeed the way to go, and that it also applies to the BOI, then that's the way it is.

I've decided to be optimistic and hope for the best, that being.... after some initial pissing and moaning by many of us, that we decide that this place is indeed worth every penny, and membership and participation continues and grows, and that the fee also cleans up the BOI a little bit, by making it harder to pay fees to keep reregistering.

Worst case scenario, a lot of people bail out, and rely on the other big site, and many people who no longer have the free BOI to bail them out, get ripped-off and places like bearded pets and the dozens of other thieves, start making money again and return to the other site with their ads, since we all know that it takes forever to get them banned from advertising over there, and that's with the knowledge of the BOI. Just think how it would be for all the people who didn't want to pay the ten bucks. They would have no way to know that "such and such" business, was the new "bearded pets" because the second they posted any kind of "inquiry" or complaint or anything remotely related to "checking out" an advertiser, the post would get deleted and you'd probably get banned from the site. Meanwhile.......the dozens or hopefully hundreds of us left over here "talking amongst ourselves" like people think might happen if a fee is charged, would be saving our hard earned cash, because we would know about those new business'

So if Rich decides a fee will affect the BOI in particular, I say if you are just too cheap or feel that the BOI is some kind of "right" and don't want to pay.....don't let the door hit you on the way .

If you are like me and many others, and don't feel there is anything wrong with a modest fee, but have reservations about it because of the effect it may have on the BOI, we will just have to ride it out and hope that the outcome is the best case scenario.
That's my take on the situation.

 

[DAND]

I don't think that .03 cents ($10.00) to .10 cents ($35.00) a day it too much for even the poorest person out there. Is there anyone out there who can honestly say they don't get a dimes worth help, satisfaction, entertainment, relaxation, or information from Fauna a day?

Seamus,

You were out of line with your comment towards Lucille. She is putting forth a great effort to help Fauna. It's a lot more than the pissing, moaning and asking why this, why that you have provided. Rich doesn't need to lie on the couch and tell you all his problems and be psychoanalyzed, questioned or second guessed by you. Were this a multimillion dollar business merger and you the majority owner, the questioning would be valid. This is a community forum, which is in need of community support. You have stated that you'd leave if a fee is implemented, which shows your lack of support. Why stick around? The writing is on the wall, and short of some member dying and leaving their money to Fauna there will be a fee.

 

[Lucille]

"And if I gave a rat's ass what you thought Lucille, I might have asked your opinion before posting it"

Seamus, in fact, you sent me a private IM about all this on the 28th:

01-28-2005 Rich and Fauna
04:45 PM Seamus Haley


I have gone out of my way to spend huge amounts of time thinking and developing ways to help, here. I have done this on my own because I saw where I could use my skills and talents to make a positive difference in this Fauna community. Anyone here could do the same, and some have done just that, and done well.

I need not account to people who merely write diatribes.

I appreciate the support of people who email me with offers to help, which has happened a lot, lately.
I appreciate people who have emailed me, saying they have become new contributors.
I appreciate all the people who contribute time, and posts, and their money, and goodwill to Fauna.
Most of all, I appreciate Rich; for this site.

 

[dwedeking]

Rich,

Vacation time!!! Serioiusly, grab a couple days, get away from everyone on this board and on the last day (no other days) come up with a game plan and implement it. All this discussion back and forth is just adding to your aggravation. Man, you engineer/programming types and all your meetings

 

[Ophis]

I don't know man.

I think the general forums should be free. Extra bells and whistles available to "contributors" and auction item donors. Classifieds and advertizing charged for. Isn't that SOP for other sites of this type?

 

[bcfos]

I am of the opinion this "proposal" has gotten a little out of hand like those damn Salvation Army people at Christmas time. It is just a bit annoying. But like any charity a full disclosure must be avaliable for review by those who donated. And if it isn't listed as a charity or a not for profit organization all donations are taxable under federal tax code. Which will make it a big mess at tax time.

And I can side with Rich about frustrations on running a site. But lets face cold hard facts here. Total space and bandwidth charges for a site that has as many hits as this one and takes up the same amount of space is $300 a month with my guy and if it is an adult site he takes 2% of net profits also which can add up to a nice chunck of change if you are doing 60k a month in total revenues. With no banner ads being sold that is $300 buck out of pocket(if indeed no ads are being sold) Plus the time and effort put into it, it leaves one to wonder why not just sell the site and come out ahead?