Difficult Questions...

[WebSlave]

but then you might have others stop posting (alot who might have stuck around even if they had to pay for the classifieds)simply because of the decreased traffic of a paid site, it might not be worth the time to post anymore as new members might not be comming in like they are now...i hope i'm wrong

i suppose it's a hard decision to make and there's no way to make everyone happy

whatever you decide it will be interesting to see how it shakes out, everyone seems to have theories of what will happen if you do this or that, time will tell

best of luck

--liz

You do understand, don't you, that the restriction against posting will not apply to the general discussion forums? If the BOI, classifieds, and a few other sections are closed to free posting, there will be many other forums open that they can go to in order to post. Matter of fact, I am hopefull that this might provide a bit more incentive for some members with tunnel vision to certain areas of this site to branch out a little more into other areas.

In any event, I am not considering applying this requirement across the entire site. I believe that some people are still confused about this issue.

 

[WebSlave]

No not if the site is truly costing you that much out of pocket cash. Again though as with most sites it is a volunteer base of its staff not a paid possition so you can not count your time in that equation.

Sorry, but I have to confess that I am ignorant of that law....

I did give you 6 examples of how to generate revenue to the site based on a business outlook of what would legitimately be the business part of the site. Those options would not cost the general membership any out of pocket expense and thus promote the growth of the site as well as generating revenue for you and the site.

I believe I may have addressed them in one or more of the concurrent threads about this issue. My apologies if I have skipped over it, but there is a lot of ground I am trying to cover and a lot of concerns I am trying to address.

Asking current members who have been using the site all along or potential members to pay for the abilities to post or view however is contrary to productive conversation or information gathering. The BOI will suffer as will the rest of the site is my concern.

Perhaps. But on the other hand it may be a pruning that is needed for the tree to grow bigger and be healthier in the long run. I do not believe that it can run as it is now forever, not for my sake, nor for those who have come to find themselves wanting more credibility in the site. Heck, just today I find another suspended member on their third (that I know of) bogus registration since they got fined. I do intend to put the brakes on that sort of activity, and I believe I am taking a step in the right direction in order to do that. Some people apparently are willing to put up with it, but I am not. Until the suspension has some teeth to it, then it is useless for the most part.

Honestly how many members would be here today if you charged all along?

Probably none. But then again, is it all that unusual for a business entity to offer introductory freebies? Magazines send out free samples all of the time. Clubs and spas offer free trial periods, don't they? Car dealers allow you to test drive their vehicles, normally, before you buy them.

If it will make the pill easier to swallow, consider what you have had for about the past 4 years to be one LONG test drive or free trial period. You can either be in or you can be out. I reiterate: NO ONE in their right mind would be willing to do this forever. Matter of fact, I doubt that ANYONE here would have done this as long as I have already for what I have gotten out of it.

I know for myself I will not pay to be part of a site after the bad experiance i had before, if im already a member and it was free to start. Will I pay to stay on Fauna I honestly do not know. I use the BOI but i also can check with other people about vendors and their reputation so will it be wourth my while if i have to pay? I really do not know, if im paying for something I want to get something in return and with so many websites out there what will make fauna better then them? [/b]

That is entirely up to you. You have to decide if you think the value of being able to post in certain areas of this site is worth $10 to you or not. That, certainly is going to be a decision that everyone is going to have to make. The sum total of people deciding a yes to that decision will likely decide the fate of this site. Personally, I am willing to accept that decision, no matter what it is.

Regardless of your choice i wish you and this site well. For me I will make my choice after seeing what structure you set-up and if it is worth my money and time to stay.

Understood, and thanks for the well wishes. There will be no hard feelings towards anyone no matter what happens. If this flies, then I think that the opportunity for more explosive growth will be in the future. If it fails, well I guess I have my freedom back, and I can go on to other pursuits.

If this site fails, no one can say, then, that I didn't give it my best shot. I won't have quit and I won't have given up. YOU all will tell me what you think my efforts are worth to you all. I will just not disagree with you. It will then be worth nothing to me as well. At that time I will stop accepting any banner ads, membership fees, etc., and let the site spiral down until all of those time based obligations have been filled. Then the site will be gone.

I think this is fair.

 

[lizwinz]

You do understand, don't you, that the restriction against posting will not apply to the general discussion forums? If the BOI, classifieds, and a few other sections are closed to free posting, there will be many other forums open that they can go to in order to post. Matter of fact, I am hopefull that this might provide a bit more incentive for some members with tunnel vision to certain areas of this site to branch out a little more into other areas.

In any event, I am not considering applying this requirement across the entire site. I believe that some people are still confused about this issue.

i see what your saying about the forums but the boi seems the main attraction as other sites reccomend/link to it...i've seen it quite a few times i'm im pretty sure thats how i got here

so someone comes to the site to check out the boi and find they can't post an inquiry without paying they might just back out because they do not realize the value of it...that and the fact that most people will be nervous about giving out credit card/paypal info to a site they don't really know much about

alot of people might not stick around to learn enough about this place to realize it's worth it...so new members wont be coming to the site to stay as much as they do now, which might bring down classified posting as i said in my last post

but i'm one of those people with "tunnel vision" so maybe i'm underestimating the discussion forums draw...also maybe it would help if there was something directing people to the "free" forums when they are told they have to pay to post in the "paid" forums

who knows? i sure dont, i guess we'll all have to see how it turns out

btw, i for one think it's pretty decent for you to be hearing everyone out about this...you could have just made an annoucement and been done with it

--liz

 

[WebSlave]

To be perfectly honest, I would much prefer that people be lurkers for a good spell before posting anything on the BOI. I would get a whole lot less incidents of violating the rules if people took the time to read and watch how other people acted before posting themselves. Maybe if there were there long enough, they would even read the RULES thread I put up there.

Anyway, no, I recognize that it is the people who frequent a site that make it what it is. Sometimes I have to make decisions that are going to be unpleasant for some people, but I want them to know what is going on regardless. Still, I would bet BIG MONEY, that if and when I implement this scheme, I will get inundated with messages from people who didn't have a clue about this being discussed.

 

[Lucille]

I have a long day planned, so I got up at 2:30AM in order to read some of the many posts in the several threads that deal with the current situation.

I see broad groups of voters emerging:

There are those who affirm their support of Fauna, with pledges of further support in the future. I count myself in this group. I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that Fauna continues and excels.

There are those with very strong preferences. Whether it be charging for classifieds, or the BOI, or whatever classification, this group of people has a preference for WHAT should come with a price tag; or that certain items should not carry a price tag at all. I have seem some cogent, analytical reasoning, and I have seen some decisions based on how the poster feels and the values he attaches to certain sections of Fauna; but the common thread is that feelings run high.

There are those who go with an initial response that is not well thought out (...WHAT, you want me to pay MONEY?) showing a lack of appreciation for the economic facts of life. I am sure that people in this class do not mean to devalue Webslave's time and expertise; if they thought about it a little I am sure they would realize that nothing in life comes free.

The group that concerns me most is the vast numbers of registered members who have said nothing.
The voting in the polls actually has been good in terms of prior polls on the site. And I appreciate all who have voted in, and posted comments, in my poll. But the fact is, there are MANY people who are simply choosing not to take a stand at all.

I trust that ultimately Webslave will choose to do what is best for both Fauna and himself; the decisions are difficult ones and all I can do is be as much of a supporter as I can.
The interplay of opinion, and suggestions made, are valued information in these decisions. Those of you who have said nothing, this may be the time to stand up and be counted. Certainly, once the decision of whatever nature has been made, those who chose not to participate should not be heard to complain.

Vote now.

 

[KelliH]

To be perfectly honest, I would much prefer that people be lurkers for a good spell before posting anything on the BOI. I would get a whole lot less incidents of violating the rules if people took the time to read and watch how other people acted before posting themselves. Maybe if there were there long enough, they would even read the RULES thread I put up there.

I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I just worry about that small time hobbiest, the one that may have been ripped off by some worthless dealer. You know the type of dealer I am talking about, we have seen many of them exposed for what they are right here on this site. But suppose that small time hobbiest comes to this site to post a bad guy post and share his experience here in order to save others the money and heartache. Then he sees that it is going to cost him $10 to post his story. Now, I can only think about what I would do if I was totally new to the hobby and unfamiliar with this site. I would not want to spend the $10 just to post on a forum in a website. I know, I KNOW it is not very much money at all, but I also know what this site is all about and how great it is. The new guy won't know that. I think you see what I am getting at.

There is just something about charging for the BOI that gives me an uneasy feeling, rubs me the wrong way, whatever. But if that is what has to be done in order for you to keep Fauna up and running than I guess I'll have to live with those feelings. I'm not going anywhere, whatever you decide

 

[Bill_Leverton]

The group that concerns me most is the vast numbers of registered members who have said nothing.
The voting in the polls actually has been good in terms of prior polls on the site. And I appreciate all who have voted in, and posted comments, in my poll. But the fact is, there are MANY people who are simply choosing not to take a stand at all. I trust that ultimately Webslave will choose to do what is best for both Fauna and himself; the decisions are difficult ones and all I can do is be as much of a supporter as I can.
The interplay of opinion, and suggestions made, are valued information in these decisions. Those of you who have said nothing, this may be the time to stand up and be counted. Certainly, once the decision of whatever nature has been made, those who chose not to participate should not be heard to complain.Vote now.

Lucille I was thinking the same thing as I poured my coffee this AM. I thought about when I first got here to this site back in 03 and just read and maybe once a month jump up and post some thing .The reason I feel that the masses arent out in force is that some feel that if they open thier mouths they are going to get smacked down others may feel that they will go with the flow and wait for an outcome either way ...Rich I want you take this with all do respect.I feel you should roll those bones if it comes up 7 or 11 hey this site will go on if it comes up snake eyes then you get to move on to greener pastures and Fauna becomes a memory this is just MHO. But I feel that dispite the fact some are saying "if this turns into a pay site Im gone" some will maybe ..but in the long run They will be back or someone with the same Knowledge will take their place This hobby is getting younger everyday. And on a another note depending on what fee winds up being I personally will take into concideration (sp) the financial situation of the ones that say they cant afford to pay the years fee and I will sponsor them for that year This is a one time only deal and limited to 3 people

 

[jglass38]

I only have a couple thoughts on this whole issue.

1. I would have no problem paying a reasonable fee to continue to use part or all of this site. In the short time I have been here, I have found this to be a useful and educational site and I love to contribute with helpful suggestions and sometimes unwanted sarcastic humor . I dont see how asking for a small amount is out of the question and no I dont believe Webslave needs to disclose where or what the money is going towards. Just accept that paying that small fee will keep this site running and if you dont like it, leave. I have found since I stumbled across this site, that I rarely go to any of the other forums.

2. Webslave is a bit high strung these days (and with good reason it seems)and probably could use a little R&R or possibly some prescription strength little pills. I find they work well for me. They make the A-holes more bearable.

Peace...

Jamie

 

[Bill_Leverton]

Webslave is a bit high strung these days (and with good reason it seems)and probably could use a little R&R or possibly some prescription strength little pills. I find they work well for me. They make the A-holes more bearable.
Peace...
Jamie

Thank you Jamie that one made me laugh

 

[WebSlave]

2. Webslave is a bit high strung these days (and with good reason it seems)and probably could use a little R&R or possibly some prescription strength little pills. I find they work well for me. They make the A-holes more bearable.

Peace...

Jamie

Actually I am surprised that I haven't had to dip into my valium supply. I have them on hand for the egg hatching season when I REALLY need them.

But to be honest, anyone who suggests that I take a few days off right after a server move has never really done something like that. I am still cleaning up problems here and there and it has been more then a week since the move. I had someone call me on the phone to talk about the order they placed on my SerpenCo site..... What order? So I have to check that one out now. Well maybe not "now" now, but "pretty soon" now.....

I have had some kind suggestions from people to take over some of the administrative tasks here, such as password requests, can't log in problems, and the like. But one failing of vBulletin is that there is no way to give this authority to someone else without giving them the keys to the entire site. Maybe I am being overly protective, but I have heard firsthand accounts from other webmasters who did that, the admin getting their panties in a wad over something, and the entire site being deleted before the owner knew what happened. Quite frankly, I am just not willing to take that kind of a risk.

 

[jglass38]

I'm a Xanax man myself, but Valium does the trick! Believe me, after many years in the IT field, I know what trouble server/hosting moves are. I wouldn't blame you for being a little edgy.

 

[WebSlave]

I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I just worry about that small time hobbiest, the one that may have been ripped off by some worthless dealer. You know the type of dealer I am talking about, we have seen many of them exposed for what they are right here on this site. But suppose that small time hobbiest comes to this site to post a bad guy post and share his experience here in order to save others the money and heartache. Then he sees that it is going to cost him $10 to post his story. Now, I can only think about what I would do if I was totally new to the hobby and unfamiliar with this site. I would not want to spend the $10 just to post on a forum in a website. I know, I KNOW it is not very much money at all, but I also know what this site is all about and how great it is. The new guy won't know that. I think you see what I am getting at.

There is just something about charging for the BOI that gives me an uneasy feeling, rubs me the wrong way, whatever. But if that is what has to be done in order for you to keep Fauna up and running than I guess I'll have to live with those feelings. I'm not going anywhere, whatever you decide

Yeah, Kelli, I know what you mean. But I get an even queasier feeling in my belly when I think that 5 years from now I will STILL be expected to be doing this all for free. And the way things are going, there will be 50,000 registered members here. Heck, when I first started this, I didn't believe for an instant that I would ever have more then 10,000 registered members. I didn't even THINK there WERE more then 10,000 people even interested in this stuff or involved in it. But we are getting between 20 and 40 new registered members every single day here. Of course, probably half of them are all new names for Bob Sloan or Pete Perez, but still......

But on to your concern. Heck, when I started the BOI, I did so because someone had stiffed me for checks totalling $2k. If I had had a site like the BOI to go to where I might possible get resolution or at lest warn a WHOLE LOT of people about this guy, would I have paid $10 for the opportunity to post my complaint? Hell yes! If I had gotten stiffed for a $100 order, would I have done the same? Well I would have to say YES, I would have. People get darn mad when they get cheated. Mad enough, in many cases, when they would do just about anything to get even or make some waves over it. That is the nature of people. Quite honestly, what alternatives do they have? I started the BOI because I found that there really is no alternative. I have tried every other avenue that exists when I have gotten screwed and nothing ever came of it. Who is going to travel across the country to file a complaint in person with the local DA's office to try to nail someone for the sums of money most people in this business typically deal with? Not many.

The BOI was created under the premise that ONLY peer pressure and a knowledgeable and aware community can make a difference. No one else is going to help us. Most people don't care about our snakes and lizards, and in association, us as their keepers. Most law enforcement agencies really don't care about the small potatoes that makes up our typical transactions. Yeah, you MIGHT get someone to file a report, but it goes into a pile and is placed at the bottom of the priority list.

So, quite frankly, if someone has a legitimate problem, and they want the best chance they have available to be able to do something about it, $10 is dirt cheap for that opportunity. If that is too high of a price to pay, well then, maybe the problem is not all that big enough for anyone else to be concerned about either. Look at the projections of where this is all headed, please. In 2 years, a new thread posted on the BOI might drop off the bottom of the first page within HOURS of being posted. During peak times, maybe MINUTES and it will not be visible without going to the second or third page to find it. Sooner or later something is going to have to be done about weeding out frivolous posts anyway to slow that down. So no, probably some "junior" out there who only wants to say that they have a beef with someone because they were rude to them, or didn't like their attitude on the phone won't pay $10 to post something like that. And to that I say, "so what?" If it is serious enough for someone to want to post publicly, and they have enough incentive to want to do something about it, then they WILL pay the $10 in order to do so. If not, well then perhaps the SECOND person who gets screwed by this particular bad guy will have that incentive.

 

[Corallus Borealis]

Ok, i really dont post here as the few times i have no one ever and i mean never replyed, granted it was on an animal forum and not the BOI, i just felt a little left out when others posted after me got tons of attention. Still i come here and lurk as i really dont have any current quarels with anyone.

There is that saying, "If you give a man 20 bucks and you never see him again, it was probably worth it." Well i would think that would pertain here. if they dont want to pay a small fee for some special features then, well it wasnt worth the headache.

As stated before, 10 bucks really is trivial, hell i pass that mark before i put 3 gallons of gas in my tank here in canada, so i guess some people will have to COWBOY UP and just take it for that. nothings free except selfishness.

when i first got into the hobby my first 4 snakes that i bought and spent almost 2 grand for died, 2 of which showed up dead. I was brought here by friends at corallus.com and we bashed the guy. i never got compensated and was truly ripped off but it was nice to see so many come out of the woodwork to perform the procedure of justice in this hobby even if it was only in words.

Would i pay 10 bucks for a year of service. ummm.. well i pay 25 bucks a year for my hotmail account so that i can have extra room to mail pictures, and its worth it to me. Id pay 10 bucks so that i could be kept up on the latest and greatest, yeah i would. but thats just because i know what this site can do.

Personally, id say charge it what its worth to you. we all have to or we wouldnt make it in life. I sell things in my store that 75% of the population of this world couldnt afford, why are my prices that way? its worth it, it has value and it takes alot of hard work, sweat and blood to do what we do. I hate it when i go to a restaurant and hear people saying that something is too much. How dare they. They are paying for a service. If they dont like it they can go home and make it them selves and do the dishes too.

So what i am saying is, if it culls the herd of the mad cows (hypothetical) then so be it. The site will still work and people will pay as its worth it even at such a miniscule price of 10 bucks a year.

Just my 2 cents

Chuck Butler
www.AlmightyArboreals.com

 

[KelliH]

I hear you Rich. Like I said before, I can see both sides of the issue. You and only you has to make the final judgement call. I appreciate you reading my post, and replying.

 

[WebSlave]

Just a FYI about the new registrations statistics for this site...

In case anyone was wondering....

 

[Lucille]

That is a LOT of new registrations.

Idea:

$10/ annual registration fee/ sitewide; To begin now with new registrants; Existing registrations (all of us) grandfathered in, will have to sign up on their anniversary of initial registration.

After 1 year unless the person pays the annual membership fee, he will not lose the site but it will be a read-only site for him with no posting.

After the first year, the ones who like Fauna will re-sign because they won't be able to stand not posting; others who have just dropped in for one transaction can look (at everything) and when they are moved to post, can pay their ten bucks to become active again.

Warning points (I will try not to get any more of these) set to where 10 points kicks the member out and the person must reregister for another $10. They can keep on doing this, you will net a lot of money off the bad guys.

Continue and expand the Fauna Fund to help pay expensive stuff like programmer's fees (jeez I think we all have the wrong profession, we oughtta be programmers lol).

 

[Gary O]

Liz, if everyone were reasonable, then there would be no need for the BOI.

I don't believe there is really any correlation between Contributing Members and those people who regularly post ads in the classifieds section. Matter of fact, I just did a quick scan of some of the classified forums, looking for the Contributor icons and I only saw ONE member in the forums I checked and the threads I scanned that is a Contributing Member.

The ONLY reason I would apply the $10 fee to the classifieds is because I believe that people posting ads should pass some sort of minimum credibility check as well as those people wanting to post within the BOI. I think this is reasonable and prudent to do.

Sorry, but I don't believe limiting the $10 posting fee to only the classifieds section is a very smart thing for me to do. But I do believe, regardless, that I will lose some people who are posting their ads there now.

Oh I agree a whole server move is a hard thing.

I did some pricing and I am not sure what you pay and you do not have to post it.

But does Fauna actually use all that space and back up space tyou have? My gues would be all your sites would be under 10 maybe 15 GB? What about downgrading the HD space for now and adding it later when needed to cut cost. I am not sure if your place offers this I know mine does. Just a thought.....

Hmmm I was thinking of something else and I knwo it will cost money at first but you could order as you get orders. What about getting Fauna T Shirts and hats? I am not sure if you have these but I know you can get the design done and then order them as you need them. Sell them for 15 bucks a shirt and 10 bucks a hat and you still will make a buck or two..........

Or making a donation package. Like

Get a T-shirt for a 25 dollar donation
T-Shirt and a hat for 45 dollar donation

Something like that.....

You would make 10 bucks or maybe even more off each donation and more people may give because you know how it is if you get something you are more giving......lol

People would be helping you out and be advertyising for you at the same time.................

I have not read the rest of the thread I stopped at this post of yours. This all may have been brought up.

 

[Gary O]

I quoted the wrong post above I ment to quote the one Webslave post to me about the server.

Ok Rich I just thought of something else bro. You may need to talk to your someone that has education in law about it though.

Lets say you do go to the 10 bucks a year................Now this is far fetched but if it happened it could be another BIG head ache.

So lets say member1 comes on the BOI and has paid the 10 bucks. and starts a thread that is a lie. We all know how Screen shots and emails can be edited. Member1 lies about NONmember2. Member 1 says that NONmember stole 5000 bucks and has dieing animals blah blah blah................


Could that get you in trouble if NONmember 2 would get upset saying this is a lie and I am not paying you 10 bucks to come to a site I will not use just to prove it is a lie. I want this removed from your site or let me in free of charge so I can defend myself then I will leave after it is over........................

Lets say you say no and say he has to pay. Would he have some sort of case against Fauna.

I bring this up becuase you and I both know there are asses out there that will pull a lie like that and there are the asses that are quick to pull the lawsuit......................

I just thought of that when I seen a thread in Hell...............I went through something like this with TRR war Room. But sence all they had to do was ask for access there was nothing they could do. I think you know what I am talking about lol

Another Idea................

Fauna drawings............10 bucks a ticket. You draw the winner and they get a snake that you bred................People love that stuff too

 

[TooManyBurmese]

I got to page 10 and started zoning out.

Rich, it's your site. Just do it. I don't have to agree WHY you're doing it. And if you're not a non profit, who the F cares where the money goes, it's your site!

You never answered Seamus' question, ARE you ok? I don't think I have ever spoken to you directly, but from what I have seen you do seem burnt out lately.

You need to stand up, walk away from the stupid computer, take your wife out to that dinner someone mentioned, sneak home after the kiddies are asleep and "make a little love that's over due" (country song). The next morning take the kiddies and the dog to the park and just do nothing but wander around. If you look up there's this neat blue (or gray) thing up there called a "sky".

Take five days off. Who cares if the site crashes while you're gone. If you trust your mods so much, they can hold down the ship while you're gone. Five days of a crashed site WILL NOT lose you your main member base. You might lose some little flakies, but who cares! When you come back do what ever you want. This is your private website, it is NOT a democracy. Sure members make a site, but we would have nothing to go to without YOU.

I don't know you, but I do believe you are burning yourself out. You need to get the heck away from this crap for a while and make some time for YOU.

You need to get away. This is a website on the internet, it is NOT the real world. Your health and your wellbeing are more important!

 

[WebSlave]

Gary - sorry but therer are three separate threads now running about this issue. I think I may need to combine all of them into one somewhere. Anyway, about the wrinkle you brought up, I have already addressed it in another thread....

I need to address an issue that was brought up earlier that I admitted was a sticking point I had not yet resolved. Well I have resolved it.

The point was made that if someone made a bad guy post about someone and they came to this site and viewed said thread, that they may not want to pay the $10 fee in order to come on the BOI and defend their position. Granted, and I agree that it would be unfair for me to require that of them. In such a case, since it is assumed that they have already registered on this site in order to view the thread about them, I would allow them to have the $10 fee waived for a period of 1 month, or until the issue was suitably resolved, whichever occurs first. If the thread continues past 1 month, it will be rather obvious that the issue is not likely to be resolved anyway, and at that point the person can choose to pay the $10 fee and continue on with the argument, or not.

It will be up to the person to contact me to request this waiver from me, as it is quite probable that I will not be aware of the situation in progress.

I believe this will be a fair arrangement for me to offer.

I believe this will solve that particular problem.

Thanks.