Disclosures to Buyers: Warning, this coffee is hot

[Lucille]

A first time gecko purchaser wanted to return and receive a refund for an Enigma gecko which after shipping started showing some of the neurological Enigma traits of which the purchaser was unaware. This seemed to be an otherwise healthy critter.

How much disclosure/education do you think is necessary when making a sale? Is it necessary to disclose an Enigma's neurological issues? The wobble of certain snakes? What about selling venomous snakes, do you at some point during the sale ensure that the buyer realizes the possible risk involved when acquiring a venomous snake? What about lizards which only eat ants, or the possible non feeding proclivities of ball pythons on occasion?

Do you make sure your customers know the basics, or expect that they will have researched the critter they are purchasing?
How do you feel about accepting the return of a critter when the customer did not realize the particular traits of the critter in question? Would you accept a return? If you did, would you feel that the buyer should pay return shipping costs? Do you have anything in your TOS that covers such events?

 

[rcarichter]

This is why I do most of my selling at expo's rather than online. I like to talk to customers, and make sure they know what they're doing. Often people have no clue, but are willing to follow directions I give them. I have many times sent newbies to buy proper setups, CGD, etc, before turning the gecko over to them. Nothing elaborate, just the basics. They're at the show anyway, it's not going to get any cheaper.
In the above situation, I hate to say it, but I'd probably do whatever I could to appease, and then avoid, the buyer. It's just not worth a BOI fight that possibly puts a permanent red strike on your record, even unwarranted.

Noelle

 

[sschind]

To help alleviate the problem I have done my own research. I won't sell animals such as those you described. No enigmas or spider balls because of the neurological issues and wobbles. No ant eating species or venomous. That's just how I handle it but I know that is not what you are looking for I'll try to go a bit further and explain why I adopted that policy.

It's really a fine line. I would hope that when dealing with venomous species or specialized feeders the buyer would have done their homework and be aware of the issues involved. Still, if I were selling any animals that need a particular food or was potentially deadly or harmful (not in the sense that all animals COULD get you sick or kill or hurt you but in a more direct way such as venomous or large predatory species like large pythons and monitors ) I would think it important for the seller to disclose any such issues. I do sell western hognose snakes and make it a point to point out that they are rear fanged and mildly venomous. I also make sure that people are aware of the potential dangers when they buy a tarantula or a scorpion and again, I don't deal with any overtly deadly species.

The neurological problems with enigmas or spider balls (just two of the more common examples) is a bit different. For the dangerous stuff or very specialized stuff common sense (which is not all that common unfortunately) or a quick search should point out the pertinent issues. On the other hand, unless I was aware of the potential health issues and specifically searched for health issues for these morphs you could visit a dozen sites and nothing would show up. Most site, granted they are sites aimed at selling the morphs, will not mention it. They just describe the trait as an unusual and beautiful morph that you must have. As a casual fancier of morphs (which I am not by the way) but not an expert in them why should I expect and enigma to be any different from a potential health standpoint that an albino or a spider ball to be any different than a pastel. Especially when so many people will make a concerted effort to at the very least not point it out and at the worst out and out cover it up or deny it. Some dealers will talk about it if asked but very few would bring it up and I'm guessing that a good percentage of sellers would say no if I were to ask if this particular morph had any potential morph specific health issues.

I suppose, to some sellers, its not any different than explaining basic care. If someone comes up to your table and looks over your dozen or so leopard gecko morphs and talks about how they are thinking about adding another to their collection or breeding plans you would assume they had basic knowledge. I'm not sure that assumption should apply to knowledge of potential morph specific issues, especially if they are not planning on breeding it. If its for a breeder I would hope they would be a bit more informed.

Online is a bit different and this is one reason I don't sell on line. Like Noelle I prefer to talk to my customers. A couple of months after I started my website a guy called and left me message ranting and raving and swearing because he wanted to buy one of my snakes and I didn't have a checkout. Personality traits like this usually come out in general conversation and guys like his are ones I would prefer to avoid. Its just one reason I don't want to sell on line and especially with a simple checkout feature.

Still, like I said, I have chosen to avoid the issue all together by not selling animals that have such issues.

The bottom line, after a bit of rambling, I do think the seller should be up front about such things. From an altruistic point of view you will be educating the person at the potential cost of a sale and from a selfish point of view it will help to show that you are an honest person and it could prevent having to deal with problems later on.

 

[radera5]

Good discussion Lucille

I think there are different factors that come into play here...(for myself anyway)

If I am making a sale online, I assume the person buying the animal from me know's the basics. If they found me online, on a reptile classified...I don't ask "what they know". I I do however say to every customer, "If you have any questions or concerns, please let me know and I will be happy to help you out the best I can", but again, I don't necessarily ask specifics.
At a show it is much easier to see "who knows what". Whether it be about the husbandry or what the animal eats all the way to any "issues" a particular animal might have. I think everyone tends to talk more at shows so it is just routine to find out more about buyers and to pass more info along, both common knowledge to more experienced keeping techniques.

My point here is that at a show when someone is asking about a Ball Python I have for sale, right from the start I can USUALLY tell if they would even have a clue that BP's can be some of the most picky eaters.Whereas online, I might have no idea.

I do NOT deal in with venomous...YET, but I think if I was I would naturally say something about the fact. Even if it was something simple like "You know this is a venomous animal right?" But even with this it seems to me you would base each case individually.

I guess my answer then is I expect them to know the basics...for the most part.
As far as returns go, I don't think so. This is a tough one for me though. We have never had a problem with a customer up to this point BUT if someone bought a Spider BP from me and got concerned with it's wobble, therefor wanting to return the snake...it would be hard for me to do so. I KNOW that the animal is just fine, was eating, and overall healthy, so I would tell them they should have known.
I will say if I was ever going to accept s return under these circumstances, the buyer would be paying for the return shipping. For me to pay return shipping on a perfectly fine animal is just ridiculous.

I do have one question of my own though, I saw the thread that Lucille is talking about...my question is the difference in Ball Python's (which is what I keep falling back on) to the Enigma Leopard Gecko.
I have seen that Enigma's that HAD to be hand fed in order to eat/SURVIVE. If that was the case then I think all this doesn't mean a thing. If a Spider (BP) wobble is so bad to the point that it can not feed ITSELF, then IMO, it needs to be culled. So if the gecko that was bought was just stressed from the shipping, which was said many times, and it calms down and can have a good quality of life okay. BUT if this Enigma must be hand fed forever, I do not think the animal was healthy.

So I guess it would all come down to does that particular OP just not like the goofy "wobble" of the Enigma, or is the gecko truly sick? (As in will never be able to eat on it's own"

 

[~Just Curious~]

Kinda reminds me of a local deal I had once: After telling me in person with the animal in hand that they were happy with it, I had this gal return an /albino/ snake to me two days later because it had red eyes. "I didn't know it would have red eyes. You didn't focus on the eyes in the pictures. I've never liked red eyes, it just makes them look evil." They wanted another morph.
'Hot coffee is hot' indeed...

When it comes to morphs with /actual/ problems, I don't personally work with any, but sometimes see ads saying something like "slight wobble" or "no enigma issues at all".
I think that's the safest route - if the problem is so common and accepted for them, address how that paticular one suffers from it (or doesn't) up front. I assume that buyers familiar with the morph were going to ask about the severity of it anyways, now it's just out of the way! =D

 

[AGoodwin]

I am aware of the thread that sparked this as well and I feel that it was an honest mistake, not a lack of research. As I stated in that thread, most people wouldnt think to have to research the particular morph being as it is supposed to be just a matter of looks. When I purchased my first spider ball, I was familiar with ball python care. I researched before I got my first ball, it was not until after I got my spider girl that I found out about the "wobble". Are you honestly going to say I did something wrong because I did not research "spider ball pythons" specifically? These are special cases, and although it is unfortunate, you can't expect every buyer to be aware of them. I feel that the seller does have a responsibility to bring to light anything that may be out of the ordinary for the particular species in general, be it a spider ball prone to "wobble" or the particular syndrome found in enigmas, etc. If you dont want to deal with it personally each time, or make a note of it on each animal, you could at the very least place something about it in your terms and conditions so that if something like the dispute being referenced here occurs, you can say, "I'm sorry, but this was mentioned in the terms you agreed to upon making the purchase."

just my 0.02¢

 

[hhmoore]

I don't run every potential buyer through Do you know how to take care of this snake 101; however, if there is a specific requirement that may not be quite common knowledge, I would absolutely make sure they are aware (that includes lizards that feed exclusively on ants, or snails; as well as snakes that feed on slugs, or toads; etc). I am also available for after the sale questions - and I very much prefer that my customers ask ME first. Forums are great - but I don't like being in competition with a bunch of other people to resolve a husbandry issue with a snake I sold. It just creates confusion for the buyer to be told different things. (There was a thread on this site a while back, and the poor girl was jumping through hoops trying to do what everyone said - the ideas, while reasonable enough individually, were coming so frequently and changed so often, that none of them could work. I finally intervened and told her to pick one person to listen to, and follow that person's instructions - keeping all other suggestions on hold in case they were needed)

For morph specific "quirks", I feel the buyer should be aware before they part with their money; so, yes, I make a point of asking. From there, the discussion can be as long, or short, as the customer needs.
As far as a return based on a morph specific issue - since I would have made sure they were aware of it, NO, I would not refund shipping or pay return shipping. My TOS states that unless the return is due to a pre-existing health issue, I will not refund shipping costs - and the neurological impairments are not health issues...well, unless they are severe enough to impact the animals ability to survive; and, frankly, any neuro symptom that severe would get the animal culled without a second thought - it would never be sold. If, however, shipping significantly worsened the symptom to a degree that I felt it warranted a FULL refund - that is at my discretion. (In that case, my first instruction in that case would be to let it settle for a few days to see what happened - then, I would ask for verification, preferably video.)
Also, if I failed to reveal such an issue, then my thought is that providing a label for return shipping would be a reasonable compensation for my negligence...and help sink that message home so I wouldn't forget again.

 

[Lucille]

Are you honestly going to say I did something wrong because I did not research "spider ball pythons" specifically?

I initiated the thread so that buyers and sellers could put their feelings about the subject on the table here. Maybe by reading each others posts everyone can get a better idea of what has worked in the past for others, and get an idea of expectations from both the buyer and seller standpoint as to what and how much information needs to be shared in a transaction.

As far as right or wrong, I do have an opinion on disclosure: I feel that if a seller deliberately fails to disclose a condition in order to induce the seller to buy, my feeling is that is wrong. As far as how much and how detailed sales disclosures should be otherwise, that is what the thread is here to explore.

 

[hhmoore]

Regarding Amanda's post, I don't know how long you have had your spider, but that information is now widely available....that wasn't always the case. Despite the volume of threads on the subject, across many forums, it would not be inconceivable that a person might do a search and not find anything relevant unless he/she thought to include the terms wobble or neurological. I'm sure many sellers take an everybody should know about that, by now attitude; but I think my previous post addresses my opinion on that.
There are constantly new people coming into the hobby, and prices are dropping faster than ever...meaning that people are buying combination morphs earlier in their experience than they would have in the past. I think a fair number of (but still not enough) people DO mention the spider wobble - when selling a plain spider; but how many bother to take that step for a killer, or queen, bee...or even a bumble, or lesser, bee?

 

[AbsoluteApril]

For morph specific "quirks", I feel the buyer should be aware before they part with their money; so, yes, I make a point of asking. From there, the discussion can be as long, or short, as the customer needs.

I also have a line in my TOS that states no return for buyer's remorse.*

(*depending on the situation, something may be worked out; each sale is it's own monster)