Eastern Indigo Hatchlings

[kmurphy]

I say we can solve this right now by putting some of them up in the free market and seeing how much they sell for on reptileauctions.com, this would show what the demand is and set the market price but I doubt you or anybody else would do this as it'll show that the Indigo is a $700 snake end of story...

Marcia, this wouldn't really set the price unless you put animals up over severals months so that all that would be interested in Indigos became involved. I guess your point is that they are overpriced. When the current inventory starts to build up yearlings and 2 yr olds the price will fall and not before. Too much inventory would require adjustments regardless of any individual breeder's desire to keep prices stable. Evidently the current Indigo breeders can sell most, if not all, of their product each season so there is no incentive to lower prices. It is an expensive snake, especially in light of Jeff's posts indicating that recouping your investment is difficult, if not impossible. So heaven forbid that you actually purchase an animal just to have it and not for it's monetary value.

 

[DesertHerper]

Marcia, this wouldn't really set the price unless you put animals up over severals months so that all that would be interested in Indigos became involved. I guess your point is that they are overpriced. When the current inventory starts to build up yearlings and 2 yr olds the price will fall and not before. Too much inventory would require adjustments regardless of any individual breeder's desire to keep prices stable. Evidently the current Indigo breeders can sell most, if not all, of their product each season so there is no incentive to lower prices. It is an expensive snake, especially in light of Jeff's posts indicating that recouping your investment is difficult, if not impossible. So heaven forbid that you actually purchase an animal just to have it and not for it's monetary value.

Well, this is incorrect to a point in that in a free market where you let people set a price you have a true value of an item, something is worth what another person is willing to pay for it... In some cases you can include a time frame i.e. being able to sell something for $5 in a week $10 if you try for two and $20 if you're willing to wait a month.. In this case, this is the first year that a $1,100 price has been set and the first year I've seen them needing to be sold on kingsnake instead of via word of mouth and waiting lists...

Jeff was clearly well off in stating you can't recoup the cost of keeping these snakes by breeding them and selling babies for $1,500 each... Baja rats are a tough snake to keep and sell for 10% of the price and you make money off them... I've worked with odd snakes and hard to breed snakes and have yet to breed one that can't cover the cost of care with breeding... In fact, it would be a HUGE stretch to say the snakes cost $200 each per year to maintain....

Either way, no breeder will advertise a price drop and nobody will anti-up and list one where the buyers can decide the value because the price this year has been taken to far and from the conversations I've had many hadve just lost respect for the breeders trying to milk the extra money out of the market... I do however understand why the other Drys are going up as many are just far less trouble to deal with...

 

[kmurphy]

Well, this is incorrect to a point in that in a free market where you let people set a price you have a true value of an item, something is worth what another person is willing to pay for it... In some cases you can include a time frame i.e. being able to sell something for $5 in a week $10 if you try for two and $20 if you're willing to wait a month.. In this case, this is the first year that a $1,100 price has been set and the first year I've seen them needing to be sold on kingsnake instead of via word of mouth and waiting lists..

.

Here I do disagree with you. The people don't really set the price, supply and demand does. Of course you can argue that this trickles down to the people. In reality though it is the seller attempting get a return on their investment that sets the price based upon the available supply and his likelyhood of selling at that price. Like I said, if the inventory starts to build the price comes down. I don't know if indigos were more or less last year but the fact that they have to advertise doesn't necessarily mean demand is down. I, for one, don't like being on a waiting list for several years. So I wouldn't be in the market for any animal that required such. I am sure there are others like me that assumed Indigos had a long wait. Now that they can see that they are immediately available they may jump into the market.

 

[epidemic]

No one is going to list D. couperi to an auction site for a few reasons:

First: D. couperi are an endangered species and require USF&W permits for interstate commerce and many folks are unfamiliar with the necessity of such permits or the documentation and paper work required to obtain such.

Second: Auction sites are notorious for scams and rip-offs, something individuals working with high-end specimens are quite leery of.

Third: Dry keepers are generally a cliquish group and prefer to work individually with those interested in acquiring offspring they produce. I know many breeders, self included, that are quite picky about who acquires available offspring from our collections and have turned away potential buyers.

Still, I ask why the price bothers you so much that you have to publicly gripe about it? It is becoming apparent to me that you are the only one harboring an issue to this regard, but I suppose this is due to the fact that you want an indigo, but do not wish to pay for it. Oh well, I want a Ferrari, but the 250K price tag leaves me wanting, but I am not openly complaining to the Ferrari dealers about their prices.

Also, I had to laugh at your statement regarding the cost of feeding Drys, as your lack of knowledge surrounding the captive husbandry of the genus truly shows through. You might find it interesting to know, all of my adult D. couperi consume an average of two large rats, two 10 week old quail and two small trout each week and they would eat more if I gave it to them. Also, these guys eat year round. Check Rodent Pro and a local fish dealer, then do the math. As I said before, educate yourself regarding the captive requirements of the species, as your knowledge is severely lacking, as these are not your typical colubrids.

Lloyd Lemke worked with a variety of snakes, back in the day, for the sheer love of doing so. He was also a very early proponent of locality data regarding domestic species. I knew Lloyd and I know that he often gave specimens away or drastically discounted them for friends and serious hobbyist. I also know that he required full market value for some of the animals he offered as well. Are you familiar with his “Calico” Cribos??

Anyhow, I figure you will simply continue whining about the price of something you want, but cannot or will not afford and after reading what you believe to be a stretch, regarding the cost of feeding a Dry, I really suggest you not acquire one, as I am afraid you will not be able to care for it appropriately…

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[Rivets55]

What's all this Bruhaha?

I just now searched KS.com for Eastern Indigos.
Robert Bruce has no ads posted there today.
There is one ad for 06 babies for $1,000 each - black phase.
here is the link:
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=426151

Are (some) indigo breeders cliquish?
Maybe - after all, they do breed the most exclusive North American herp. So what? I don't have to like someone to business with him.

Is the price artificially inflated?
Maybe - Maybe not. Time will tell. If inventory piles up, prices will drop. If breeders doing it for profit go broke, supply will dry up, and prices will go up. Fact is, as with any high end product, e.g, Ferrari's, it is a niche market, there will always customers (fans) who will pay whatever it takes to get one.

Are they worth every penny?
Apparently so. Everybody who's ever owned one seems to think so. What with all the potential drawbacks, from price, feeding, housing, to cleaning up vast quantities of fragrant poo, they must be really amazing. Same goes for a Testa Rosa (except the poo).

Did I go to go out and picket the Ferrari dealer cause I can't afford $250K?
No, I got what I could afford, a Nissan 350Z. Was I happy? Yes, until the speeding tickets started to pile up. I came to the conclusion that I really didn't need a sports car. I sold the 350Z, and lost money. A Ferrari would likely have sold for more money then I paid.

So, what's the point?

You want a Ferrari - go get one. Can't afford it? Get a 350Z, or a Corvette, or work and save till you can. Or start a dealership - then you'll have all the Ferrari's you want. And bear in mind, to run that dealership, and make a profit, or even just a living, is going to be a LOT of HARD work. You will really have to LOVE Ferrari's to do it. And you will need to have a loyal, affluent, and enthusiastic customer base. Are Ferrai's overated, or worth every penny? Depends who you ask, doesn't it!

Now: substitute "Redthroat Eastern Indigo" for "Ferrari" in the paragraph above. That's the point.

Regards.

John D.

 

[DesertHerper]

Third: Dry keepers are generally a cliquish group and prefer to work individually with those interested in acquiring offspring they produce. I know many breeders, self included, that are quite picky about who acquires available offspring from our collections and have turned away potential buyers.

BINGO!!! I think my friend you have made my points much better then I could have... The gripe I had was that I spoke with Robert about buying these snakes and he blew a lot of smoke up my arse and was just in general a rude human to deal with... Since then I've spoken with more then one other Eastern breeder and have found them to be great to deal with... It's also at that time I've had people offer the easterns to me more in the $850 range but telling me that they just don't wanna advertise a price drop and piss anybody in the clique off (my words not theres)...

Are (some) indigo breeders cliquish?
Maybe - after all, they do breed the most exclusive North American herp. So what? I don't have to like someone to business with him.

Are you talking just of Easterns or Indigos and a whole becuase while I'll agree the Indigo is a rare snake to find people breeding the Eastern has clear become the most common, I've never seen any other Dry. with three listings on eBay at the same time..

Also, I had to laugh at your statement regarding the cost of feeding Drys, as your lack of knowledge surrounding the captive husbandry of the genus truly shows through. You might find it interesting to know, all of my adult D. couperi consume an average of two large rats, two 10 week old quail and two small trout each week and they would eat more if I gave it to them. Also, these guys eat year round. Check Rodent Pro and a local fish dealer, then do the math. As I said before, educate yourself regarding the captive requirements of the species, as your knowledge is severely lacking, as these are not your typical colubrids.

This made me laugh!! 6 or 7 years ago I had 2.2 Woma that I fed tea cup poodles, I just couldn't figure out why I was even breaking even on that group... Still not really sure!! I guess before I spoke I should have been wise enough to ask what you were feeding your snakes, I have a ton of rattle snake running around here so I should be able to get the job done for next to nothing Just think I could sell mine for $100 each and I'd still be making money...

As a side note, for the same reasons I wouldn't have listed many of the snakes I had dealt with in the past on an auction site people won't do it with the Indigo... For me it was because it's a snake that takes the right buyer, the right buyer is often something that takes time... At $1,100 breeders will have to just spend far more time looking for the right buyer and to me not doing this for the money that's what makes me loose interest in them.. I would rather have a waiting list and know they were all gone and sold before they hatched... Just allows more focus on the collection and less on the selling of snakes...

 

[BWSmith]

After reading this entire thread, if people like you lose interest in couperi because of the price, then I think they are priced perfect.

 

[DesertHerper]

After reading this entire thread, if people like you lose interest in couperi because of the price, then I think they are priced perfect.

Agreed cause it would be much better if the people that were keeping them for the love of the snake and didn't care about weather or not they made money had them right? Much better to turn them into the next redtail boa or corn snake I think... Cause at $700 I don't think it's a snake worth the trouble of trying to make money off, just too much care involved but at $1,100-$1,500 each I bet they'll start giving it some thought, maybe even a few nifty morphs on the way at those kinda prices..

My motivation for keeping them is to work with a pure amazing animal that hasen't been watered down with greed and the BS politics the others have, to keep a snake that take work, love and care and breeding is a hit or miss shot that you shouldn't expect.. To keep a snake for once that's smarter then it's meals... But you're saying these are the types of people that shouldn't be working with them?

 

[BWSmith]

cause it would be much better if the people that were keeping them for the love of the snake and didn't care about weather or not they made money

yes

My motivation for keeping them is to work with a pure amazing animal that hasen't been watered down with greed and the BS politics the others have, to keep a snake that take work, love and care and breeding is a hit or miss shot that you shouldn't expect.. To keep a snake for once that's smarter then it's meals...

No, you have demonstrated that you want a snake that you can breed and make a profit with but do not wish to spend money on breeding stock. YOU want to set the price, not pay the price set. If you think that the price should be lower, then pay the money to get breeding sock and sell the offspring at a fraction of the going rate. My guess is that yo would not do this as you seem to have no real interest in the species other than complaining about the price. There are plenty of other species to choose from, perhaps you should choose another.

 

[DesertHerper]

No, you have demonstrated that you want a snake that you can breed and make a profit with but do not wish to spend money on breeding stock. YOU want to set the price, not pay the price set. If you think that the price should be lower, then pay the money to get breeding sock and sell the offspring at a fraction of the going rate. My guess is that yo would not do this as you seem to have no real interest in the species other than complaining about the price. There are plenty of other species to choose from, perhaps you should choose another.

Well I thank you for clearing up my motivation behind wanting this snake... Before your comment I felt like that Pied Balls, Womas, Coxi, Prasina and so on that I kept years ago were motivated by money alone... I felt like I stopped working with snakes because of the direction of the keepers to always be pushing for more money... I see now that I'm wrong for thinking this and I should maybe look into breeding something like ringneck snakes... Thank you for speaking for me and letting me know the motivation behind my purchase as I thought I was trying to stick up for people doing just want you mentioned above with the Drys...

Good lord, sorry for asking why the price has gone up and even more so that I got your undies all twisted without anybody giving one valid reason for a $300 price jump in one year! I call is suspect honestly but whatever, clearly the Eastern is kept by the same type of breeders it once was..

 

[BWSmith]

Well I thank you for clearing up my motivation behind wanting this snake... Before your comment I felt like that Pied Balls, Womas, Coxi, Prasina and so on that I kept years ago were motivated by money alone... I felt like I stopped working with snakes because of the direction of the keepers to always be pushing for more money... I see now that I'm wrong for thinking this and I should maybe look into breeding something like ringneck snakes... Thank you for speaking for me and letting me know the motivation behind my purchase as I thought I was trying to stick up for people doing just want you mentioned above with the Drys.....

You're Welcome.

 

[Archimedes Artifex]

Based on this statement you wouldn't think there were 4 breeders trying to sell them currently without any luck... Based on supply and demand not only will a price go up but down as well, something clearly none of them want to publicly do.. I have seen Robert selling or attempting to sell the same snakes for months and months without luck..

I guess as sad as it is to say, the politics and greed that have effected the rest of the snake market is making it's way into the Indigo as well... I have spoken with 2 breeders myself who have told me that they can't sell them for $1,000 but don't want to cut the price on others... Debeers is one clear example of supply and demand having nothing to do with a over priced product...

Not trying to be rude here or start a debate, simply pointing out that if you can't sell your snakes after months and months, have no waiting list and little interest the price at some point will have to be looked at as the possible issue..

I would like to see somebody making the supply and demand argument list a pair on reptileauctions.com and let it fly.. I think the price would come in much closer to $1,500 a pair as I think the Indigo will always be a $750 snake..

I don't get what everyone is contiuously debating. If I had a spare grand sitting around I would love to own an Indigo. I would rather spend $1100 on a fascinating and challenging snake rather then go and spend $15,000 on a $30 ball python that looks like it's been painted with finger nail polish. Maybe after I spend my life savings restoring my '69 Roadrunner, and taking care of my collection as is, I will try to get into breeding Indigos.

Cheers
-Richard

Post Scripture:
I could quote everyone and try my hardest to make points, but that would take up another 7 pages.
Nice debate, and well spoken on EVERYONE'S behalf. Although this was a classified add, and not a debate.

 

[thesnakeman]

Just curious

Robert Bruce posted a classified add which ignited a 7 page firestorm, involving a half dozen people,....but not one word from Robert. Why? I'm asking Robert,...not you.

And to Marcia,...We will sell our indigos for whatever price we want. If you don't like it, I'll give you a quarter so you can call somebody who gives a ****! If you can't afford indigos, get a job at the zoo, and one of us might donate some for free, and then you'll be able to work with them. Or sell your house, save your money, and buy some,....{ LIKE I DID!!!!} Then, and only then will you fully comprehend the value, and corresponding price of an indigo. Until then shut your pie hole and go play with garter snakes. Because until you acquire, raise, breed, sell, and loose a few indigos,....YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!! And you just annoy those of us who do.
T.
P.S. I'll sell you one for about ten grand.

 

[DesertHerper]

We will sell our indigos for whatever price we want.

Correction, you will sell your snakes for whatever you're paid.. And clearly nobody is getting paid $1,000 for them.. Not one person as address why the snake use to have a 3 year waiting list and now nobody can sell them.. This my friend if you took business 101 is called supply and demand..

As for purchasing Indigos, I really don't like working with common snakes, the Eastern is WAY too common for me to want to deal with.. Even more so when you address the permit issues and having less of a market to sell to.. I went with a trio of Texas instead, much less common in captive collections..

Thank you however for assuming as much as you did, I found it to be a very entertaining break in my night.. Also, if you decide you want to work with a snake not as common and clouded in so much debate and drama let me know and I'll put you on my waiting list for Texas Indigos..

 

[thesnakeman]

Your an idiot. I could sell indigos all day long for a grand a pop. Folks are pestering me all the time, which is why I don't advertise anymore, and I don't maintain a waiting list. And there is still a waiting list for most breeders, some maybe longer than three years. You have no clue what you are talking about. Your just running your yapper. And we're just laughing at you. So how bout you either shut up, or get some couperi, and raise them, and breed them, and have some die, or lay infertile eggs, so you will know what you are talking about. Keep your Texans.

 

[BWSmith]

Your an idiot.

That made me chuckle since I am watching House season 2 on DVD at this very moment and that is his favorite line

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Correction, you will sell your snakes for whatever you're paid.. And clearly nobody is getting paid $1,000 for them.. Not one person as address why the snake use to have a 3 year waiting list and now nobody can sell them.. This my friend if you took business 101 is called supply and demand..

As for purchasing Indigos, I really don't like working with common snakes, the Eastern is WAY too common for me to want to deal with.. Even more so when you address the permit issues and having less of a market to sell to.. I went with a trio of Texas instead, much less common in captive collections..

Thank you however for assuming as much as you did, I found it to be a very entertaining break in my night.. Also, if you decide you want to work with a snake not as common and clouded in so much debate and drama let me know and I'll put you on my waiting list for Texas Indigos..

I’m just curious,

How did you come to the conclusion that none were selling? It’s a general ad about a clutch. This ad and others make no mention of a single snake being sold. Just because you see the same picture or the same ad doesn’t conclude that nothing has been sold.

I have 2006 season Eastern Indigo hatchlings available now. Most are the red-throat form as all of my parents are red-throats.

I am beginning to release 2006 hatchlings. Males and pairs are available, $1,100 each. I also have a small number of yearling pairs (inquire if interested).

How can these quotes above be claimed as supporting evidence to your statements below?

I have seen Robert selling or attempting to sell the same snakes for months and months without luck.

Do you produce a huge number of these every year or is this just a snake that's very hard to sell as I've seen you listing them for months now.

Not trying to be rude here or start a debate, simply pointing out that if you can't sell your snakes after months and months, have no waiting list and little interest the price at some point will have to be looked at as the possible issue.

Well your answer is right in the Ad.

For the last two years, I have been the top producing breeder in the world, with the largest breeding colony of Eastern Indigos anywhere.

I think you’re a little upset that nobody wanted your ring.

Willing to trade 1.5+ carat Diamond solitaire for Eastern Indigos...

That's about what it comes down to.. This is a brand new ring from a store buyout.. I can't afford to marry any more women (come to think of it, even if I could I'd rather have a pair of indigos) so I won't be putting this ring to use.. It is over 1.5 carats, 18k white gold setting and would cost you $5,000 at the very least if you were to try buying it from any store. I'm open to any and all trade offers.. I would be more then happy to send pictures..

Give me a call at (520) 609-three-nine-seven-nine...

 

[Kaa needs a wife]

To add insult to injury............

I for one have wanted a pair of easterns for years. Finding anyone having them for sale though has been a pain and yes they are expensive. So for the last few months I have been putting away the nickels and dimes. Not buying that next pack of cigarettes. Buying some nice big cages, heating, lighting. And preparing to buy said eastern indigos. I am gettin 1.0 Black tailed cribo and still trying to find him a female......(anyone know of a breedable female for sale) So there is a demand for this snake. I for one will take my time and make sure that I will have my beauty's around to enjoy for years. Money means nothing to me as compared to working with these snakes. I fell in love with the genus after seeing my first black tail and after that it was over.............

 

[DesertHerper]

Your an idiot. I could sell indigos all day long for a grand a pop. Folks are pestering me all the time, which is why I don't advertise anymore, and I don't maintain a waiting list. And there is still a waiting list for most breeders, some maybe longer than three years. You have no clue what you are talking about. Your just running your yapper. And we're just laughing at you. So how bout you either shut up, or get some couperi, and raise them, and breed them, and have some die, or lay infertile eggs, so you will know what you are talking about. Keep your Texans.

Well, I have also told people that I win the conversation when I can get the other person to degrade their ration to the point of calling names.. I state this only as a general rule as conversations are clearly not games to be won, just viewpoints compaired..

I’m just curious,

How did you come to the conclusion that none were selling? It’s a general ad about a clutch. This ad and others make no mention of a single snake being sold. Just because you see the same picture or the same ad doesn’t conclude that nothing has been sold.

Not to be rude but if you're both too lazy to read the whole thread I have zero interest in doing it for you..

I could sell indigos all day long for a grand a pop.

Well you may be a better sales person then the other four people advertising Easterns for sale.. Can you please tell me how you sell them? It can't be advertising or a website as all the other people that have been trying to sell theirs for months have them.. It can't be word of mouth either as Robert is more know then yourself for working with this snake.. Maybe you just excell in sales?

 

[Wilomn]

Well, I have also told people that I win the conversation when I can get the other person to degrade their ration to the point of calling names.. I state this only as a general rule as conversations are clearly not games to be won, just viewpoints compaired..



Not to be rude but if you're both too lazy to read the whole thread I have zero interest in doing it for you..



Well you may be a better sales person then the other four people advertising Easterns for sale.. Can you please tell me how you sell them? It can't be advertising or a website as all the other people that have been trying to sell theirs for months have them.. It can't be word of mouth either as Robert is more know then yourself for working with this snake.. Maybe you just excell in sales?

Let's look at this another way.

Who has them for sale? I know one guy in Pa. who produced Tx/Eastern hybrids and sold them as pure. Maybe you're dealing with him.

Who are you dealing with that has so many left over. Maybe it's the seller.