FC raffles? Is it possible?

[polasian]

The BOI is still around...however so is the potential of lawsuits. The BOI will always need backing...and it will never receive enough of it if every year we simply rush to "save" it. Instead, lets figure out a way to "preserve" it...through steady voluntary cash flow.

So...I was thinking raffles might be a good idea . Doing that legally however, is beyond me. A "raffle" falls under the category "game of chance" A.K.A. "gambling" which is illegal. If there is even the slightest hint of indiscretion (due to ignorance/ignoring of the laws and regulations), then this wont work. It'll just end up being VERY counterproductive for FC.

IF we can make this work, I believe that raffles could potentially bring in A LOT more $ then set auctions...AND it wont cost anyone a penny. Lets say someone is planning to sell their laptop on Craigslist for $150 (for example). Imagine if FC had a system set up where said laptop could be raffled off. The seller would post on the "contributions n' stuff" thread stating that at least 40 raffle tickets (again, for example) at $5 per ticket would need to be sold in order for the raffle to conclude. Once all the tickets are purchased, the seller gets to keep his/her $150 and at the same time FC gets $50. Its a win - win. The laptop example might be a poor one, but my point is...ANY desirable items can be auctioned off (not restricted to anything Fauna related). As far animals...I mean if I was still keeping snakes and a Pied raffle ever popped up, I'd definitely buy a handful of tickets!

A lot of people want to help FC financially however the resources are just not there for them. A raffle system, would be that resource which is currently absent. The seller would be helping FC, yet not a single penny would come out of their pockets. As for the people purchasing the tickets...at $5 or $10 or even $20 (depending on how desired/expensive of an item is being raffled off) per ticket, the benefits are far greater then the risks. Obviously this is because at the end of the day, you might win an expensive item for pennies on the dollar. Even if you don't win the prize, you can call yourself a proud philanthropist who helped support the BOI.

I wish it was as easy as raffling off Grandma's apple pie to help out a local Church...but it isn't. The following are results of others research on this matter;

The research done by the Berner-Garde Foundation:

There is a variety of laws and opinions regarding internet raffles. Most of the information leads to the conclusion that it is unlawful to hold a raffle on the internet. Investigation has shown that:

1. Each state has its own Raffle laws. States where raffles are legal have their own separate rules and regulations for holding raffles. In states where raffles are legal some type of raffle license must be obtained from the pertinent state office.

2. Raffles are considered a form of gambling. Gambling is carefully monitored by state and federal regulations. The three basic criteria that satisfy the definition of gambling are: (1) a prize is awarded; (2) the winner of the prize is determined purely by chance; and (3) some consideration or payment is required to participate.

3. Although each state has its own raffle rules, if the BMDCA was to hold an internet raffle we would be crossing interstate lines. For instance, in the state of Oklahoma, raffles are illegal. We cannot research and obtain a raffle license in each state. It would be impractical and non-cost effective.

We have contacted state raffle offices, the US Justice Department and researched the Internet. Although we have not found a written law saying specifically "no internet raffles," we have got enough information to conclude that it is illegal.

In light of the above information and after extensive discussion, the BMDCA Board of Directors has adopted a policy that the BMDCA shall not directly participate in Internet raffles.

So Internet raffles that do exist are still operating solely because someone hasn't shut them down yet. We checked on Ohio's specific raffle laws: a raffle must be conducted by a non-profit on file with the IRS.

We need to find a LEGAL loophole (if there is even one to be found). Is there a way for an Internet raffle to be organized on FC to be 100% legal? Do any of you have experience with raffles?

I know there are several former members of this site that seem to have made it their hobby to attack Rich and/or the BOI. If those people catch wind of any "not exactly legal" FC raffles, then I can see them sending out mass emails to organizations that regulate such raffles. Then you have PETA who would love to stumble across something like this..."A reptile cult disguised as a legitimate fauna website, is illegally gambling such things as vicious and deadly garter snakes, in the hopes of further raping the environment?!?!?!" So is there a way we can void any wrong doing by making this raffle completely legit? That's the goal of this thread...to see if raffles would be possible on FC.

I say we throw some ideas around, and at the end of the day we might just figure this out. I know that a non-profit can (under certain circumstances) be allowed to run an Internet raffle. However, FC is no none-profit...my question is, can it be done anyway? All the research I've done on this always leads me to statements like the following;

Can a for-profit business or individual run a raffle?...No. In the vast majority of cases, raffles must benefit a legally registered non-profit, charitable agency.

They say "no", followed by "in the vast majority of cases..." . This implies that it IS possible. So...lets try to figure out how to fit FC raffles into the "minority of cases."

I've done some research on this, yet I cant come up with a definitive answer on whether or not an Internet raffle can be legally organized, or not. We have some REALLY intelligent people on here, and 62,000 heads are better than 1. So I'm throwing this out there in hopes that you guys can run with it. It doesn't matter if you feel like your idea might be stupid, tell us anyway...hell, this entire post might be stupid. For all I know, the very next post might refer to a law that confirms Internet raffles, without a shadow of a doubt, to be illegal. In which case, sorry for spamming the forum .

If we can make something happen here, then FC can REALLY benefit from this. Please give your thoughts (preferably facts that you have tracked down) for OR against something like this.

Prior to starting any conversations about this, however, we first need to ask the boss man if we have his OK . So Rich, if we throw around some ideas and eventually find a way for you to run legit raffles on FC...would you be willing to implement this? I'm assuming that you will run into some initial overhead (buying permits, licences, etc...) however, once that's done everything else should go smoothly.

 

[polasian]

The following are some things that I believe should be discussed;

1) Are there companies out there that specifically cater to such raffles? Perhaps they can offer a blanket licence/permit for this? Whoever wants to auction off an item would go through said company. That company would run the raffle on FC, taking a cut of the profits, and the rest of the $ would go for the sellers asking price, as well as FC. If there are such companies, I think this would be the best route to take.

2) Is there a way to change the definition of "raffle?" If we can re-organize how traditional raffles are run, then perhaps we can branch it off from under the gambling umbrella.

The three basic criteria that satisfy the definition of gambling are:

(1) a prize is awarded.
(2) the winner of the prize is determined purely by chance.
(3) some consideration or payment is required to participate.

I don't think we can alter the definition of #1....however, #'s 2 & 3 might allow for some restructuring ;

"...the winner of the prize is determined purely by chance..."

OK, lets say that a winning raffle ticket is chosen in advance, as opposed to being a random drawing from a hat. The first person who posts gets claim to raffle ticket #1, the second person who posts gets raffle ticket #2, etc... However, prior to that particular raffle even being placed on FC, the seller can designate a trusted member of this site (one of the mods perhaps) to choose a raffle ticket # that will take home the prize. The seller decides that he wants to sell 30 tickets @ $5 a pop (for example). He relays those stipulations to a mod, and the mod will choose ticket #12 (again, for example) as being the eventual winning raffle ticket. The mod tells NO ONE the number that he chose, not even the seller. That way the seller cant call up one of his buddies and say "Hey man...the winning ticket is #12...so wait until 11 people have posted and then make the 12th post!"

IF the above is possible, then perhaps that raffle will no longer be defined as gambling. "...The winner of the prize is determined purely by chance..." Since the winning raffle will NOT be decided by some random drawing...that statement will no longer hold true, because the winning ticket HAS already been PREDETERMINED. The problem with this is...although the winning ticket is already decided upon...the individual who will eventually claim that ticket, will do so by chance. So maybe that will bring us back to point A, where the prize is once again, awarded purely by chance?

"...some consideration or payment is required to participate..."

Lets say EVERYONE who buys a ticket, gets something. It can be ANYTHING...something small. For ex, lets say everyone who participates is buying a post card of a snake print . Now, that post card is what you are buying for the price of each ticket. Then comes the random drawing which determines who wins the "intended" prize. So technically its now a sweepstakes-type-of-deal to win the lap top, or Pied, or whatever. Does this make sense? You're buying a post card, with the added bonus of entering your name into a sweepstakes to win whatever is being offered. It would be a ploy to bypass that whole "raffle/gambling" title. Is this possible?

We really need some attorneys to give us their 0.02. They know the proper language...right now I'm just speaking in Ebonics...I really have NO CLUE if any of this even makes sense.