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Florida Fish and Wildlife now Monitoring the BOI?

brucestephenson

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I spoke to an employee at the regional wholesaler. He said that Florida Fish and Wildlife now has an agent(s) monitoring the BOI. The agents hope to find evidence of any illegalities for prosecutions. I cannot verify the truthfulness of this story at this time.
 
Not sure I agree with that if they are indeed doing so, but at least it might keep people on the 'up and up' when it comes to snakes/reptiles.
We might, in return, get a little respect from the authorities on how we deal/trade/sell/buy etc.

Again, not sure I agree with it,b ut like I said above.........
 
If they are I think it is a good thing. They should monitor many if not all the online forums that deal with Reptiles and involve people in Florida. There are too many people out there getting away with alot of things they should not be doing.
 
Yes, I agree with you. It is probably a good thing, since the ripoffs will get their attention. I have never seen anyone go on the BOI and say they did anything illegal. We have had at least one or two known full-time cop members of the BOI who have been extremely helpful. Also some retired cop members!
 
I think Florida F&W are mostly the good guys, and that the laws regarding reptiles in our state are mostly good for the animals and fair to the people. There are some exceptions of course, mainly because some officers are more experienced and knowledgeable than others. But I don't think it's a bad thing that they are watching. It might give the "bad guys" who are hurting both animals and people some pause.
 
sychoram said:
Thank God I live in MO. These agents up here for the most part couldn't tell a Ball python from a burmese or a milksnake from a coral snake

Yes, that is a big problem. One of the other problems I've run into is officers not knowing the correct scientific answers about how to actually practice effective wildlife conservation. As well meaning as it seems, relocating animals any significant distance or turning animals loose in the wild which have previously been in captivity is actually a pretty horrendous thing to do for the animal and for the ecosystem.

One real horror story was told by a kindly, well meaning officer who described catching an illegally kept indigo snake with a noose pole and confining it in a plastic garbage bag in his car so he could drive it down the road and release it. The snake tore out of the bag and ended up in the engine compartment, where it again had to be retrieved with the noose pole. This officer was very regretful when I explained that he had almost certainly killed this rare and endangered animal due to inappropriate handling equipment and an equally inappropriate policy on relocation.

I think most of these officers do the best that they know how to do, and they sincerely mean to do a good job for conservation and for the animals' welfare. Unfortunately their training and knowledge is just woefully inadequate when it comes to reptiles. I help out when I can, and I've handed out a lot of free training manuals and snake hooks, but many officers simply don't feel comfortable with snakes at all and it is hard to get them to learn anything.

When they are in doubt, I refer them to their own state herpetologist, Paul Moler, for the best and most up to date scientific information that should be influencing their policies on relocation and on the disposition of confiscated snakes. Most of them have no idea who their state herpetologist is, let alone what he has to say about appropriate policies for conservation efforts.

Fortunately there are a few F&W officers who have enough experience to make the right decisions for conservation and animal welfare. When I say right, I don't just mean the ones I agree with, I mean in accordance with data gathered and published by professional wildlife biologists.

Adult snakes get sick and die if you dump them off in the woods too far from their capture site (example: Reinert telemetry study on C. horridus, 1988). Reptiles that have held in captivity with other reptiles are not okay to release indiscriminately into the wild due to concerns about disease transmission to wild populations (example: Jacobson on URTD in gopher tortoises, 1992). These are well known published studies, long accepted and verified by the scientific community, and yet some Fish and Wildlife officers are clearly not aware of them and are acting directly to the contrary in a misguided attempt at practicing good conservation.

So yes, lack of education and training is a problem. I don't really know how to address it, except to keep preaching to every F&W officer I come across and urging them to get better educated about how reptile conservation really works.
 
Good for them

Why on earth wouldn't a law enforcement agency use every means at their disposal to try to catch the crooks we pay them to catch?

I hope Florida Fish and Wildlife are on top of things enough to know where to spend their time. They may not find direct info here, but they'll be entertained while looking!

I'm happy to see that F&G folks are finally starting to consider herps worth spending time on. Some species are being raveged by collectors - turtles being exported to Asia in huge numbers is a recent example.

I was stopped in Kansas by a Sheriff. I told him I was looking for herps and he said "OK" and started to drive off. I asked him if he knoew local laws against collecting and he said - "no, not really" SO I explained that there are people who come from around the country to steal thousands of dolars of Kansas's natural history - the property of all the people of Kansas - a crime that amouonts to grand theft. I described why they do it, and when and where. He was interested.

I explained how he was ina unique position to stop this theft and we talked about how the sheriff's office could work more closely with Fish and Game. I suggested, and he agreed, that getting the two units working together would be a good thing.

He planned to contact Fish and Game and try to get some cross training going. I told him I would do anything I could to help. I hope you all do the same!

Joe Monahan
 
That is not what I meant Joe,

You are obviously a radical environmentalist who really should not be involved in herpetoculture. We do not need or require a police state. Your posts which contain radical environmentalist lies and your telling such propaganda to us and that poor sheriff have exposed you. Perhaps you are already a member of such an organization as PETA or the Earth Liberation Front?
 
Your childish effort at name calling does not diminish the veracity of my assertions. I am not in any way involved with PETA or any other "radical" environmental organization. Even if I was, your labeling me a radical doesn't diminish my message.

I just don't think its fair to allow the free collection of our natural heritage by a few with out ample evidence for the stability of the populations they are collecting.

As is the case with song birds, herps should be protected unless their collection can be monitored and assured sustainable. Obviously those who benefit from the collection should pay for this, just as deer hunters pay for the deer population surveys.

I don't see whats so radical about that.

Joe Monahan
 
hmm

You are obviously a radical environmentalist who really should not be involved in herpetoculture. We do not need or require a police state. Your posts which contain radical environmentalist lies and your telling such propaganda to us and that poor sheriff have exposed you. Perhaps you are already a member of such an organization as PETA or the Earth Liberation Front?

Bruce, are you saying you think it is wrong for people to follow the law when it comes to herping? You think it is ok for people to collect protected animals? Is it ok to break the law if you are a herper? Exactly why are you chastising Joe for following the law and helping law enforcement follow the law?

I really hope I am missing something here Bruce.:unhappy:
 
Collecting laws are in place to protect the animals, usually for a good reason. Collecting animals does not have nearly the impact that habitat loss and highway mortality does on herp populations, but it can be a real pressure on some populations that are already in trouble. I am more concerned about people who collect in huge quantities for the overseas skin and meat trade than I am about people who collect a few animals for the live pet trade.

There are responsible field collectors who obey the law and do not destroy habitat or overcollect, but there are also some real @$$hats who rape the reptile populations, abuse the animals they collect and trash the habitat. Eg, rattlesnake roundup cowboys using gasoline on dens, commercial collectors taking protected animals for their skins, etc. No, I don't like those folks atall and I don't mind if they get to meet up close and personal with a wildlife officer.

I've been stopped by sheriffs and Fish and Wildlife officers a number of times, and I regard it as a positive opportunity to educate a public official about venomous snakes. Or at least to amuse myself by watching the look on their faces when they see what the lady has in her bag. LOL I don't mind meeting these folks, because all of my permits are in order and I am not breaking any laws. In fact it's generally been kind of fun.

Of course authority can always be abused, and I'm sure there are some officials who would make a meeting unnecessarily unpleasant because they had a personal agenda against all collectors, or because they wanted to throw their weight around. That's not so good, and that's another reason for the responsible herp keeping community to become involved and to help educate the authorities on what laws really make the most sense to enforce.
 
So that we can get back on track,

if they are or if they are not, F&W just like other agencies monitor many sites, for many reasons. This particular site, the BOI, does not offer anything for sale. Maybe in the business section. But it does not really matter because unless a crime has been committed by advertising something illegal, its a mute point. Aside from which we really dont even know if this thread is accurate.
 
USF&W

Hey guys,

I think that USF&W has been around these forums for a very long time. It should come as no suprise that they monitor all of the big herp sites looking for information and finding people who sell things they are obviously not suppose to. The web is a great place for them to get info just from adds alone. I can tell you from personal experiencethat if you have done something wrong.......they probably know about it because they are very good at what they do.
 
You can be certain they arre monitoring this forum....

... and many others as well. And if you buy or sell animals it is almost as ceratin you have gotten contacted by some officer or agent trolling for a bust.

As was pointed out honest people with nothing to hide should not fear this kind of scrutiny and we can also hope that some of the crooks and wildlife abusers get nabbed.

Be advised though that the job of these officers is to make busts. The relative seriousness of the crime or the intentions of the persons caught up in an investigation are not important. If you keep and trade in animals make yourself aware of the pertinant laws, many animal people with only good intentions find out about a particular regulation only when they go to court.

Just my opinion.
 
Re: USF&W

Ghi Reptiles said:
Hey guys,

I think that USF&W has been around these forums for a very long time. It should come as no suprise that they monitor all of the big herp sites looking for information and finding people who sell things they are obviously not suppose to. The web is a great place for them to get info just from adds alone. I can tell you from personal experiencethat if you have done something wrong.......they probably know about it because they are very good at what they do.
Hey Matty, one of your customers is still waiting for proof that you didn't sell him an illegally smuggled "patternless" ETB.

Why wont you supply him with the documentation that he asked for and you said you had in your possession?

And what about those Ruschi's you sold withoutthe proper requested paperwork being supplied for them too?

Why did you tell him to just keep them after you couldn't provide proof to him?

Come to think of it, how many "striped" ETB was it that you sold after you knew about the ban on importations of these type of ETB?

In the interest of brevity, just limit it to the number you sold me.;)

Surely you remember getting this letter numerous times.
Mr. Lerer,
In light of your recent exposure on the forums, your phone call today requesting the return of a Patternless Emerald Tree Boa that you sold to me under the pretence of it being legally imported from a legal exportation site and your history with law enforcement in regards to illegal animals, I am requesting the legal exportation/importation documentation on the Patternless Emerald Tree Boa that you sold to me and are claiming came from Guyana. As you are well of aware of the fact that any "non patterned" and or "striped" Emerald Tree Boas that are imported from Suriname are illegal and considered smuggled contraband, I need this important documentation to protect myself and my investments.


Also in this matter I will need a detailed written payment request for the charges for the Central American tree boa(Corallus ruschenbergerii) This needs to be a detailed payment request from the time of importation until the time of the sale.
Thank you for your time in this matter.
 
Tim, this thread is not the place for your rant, and I will not tolerate you hijacking it to further your own personal agenda. Push the issue and you'll find that I can delete your replies far quicker than you can post them.

If you have something pertinent to the subject matter of this thread that you'd like to add, feel free to do so. Otherwise, take your pissing match elsewhere.
 
F&w are monitoring all reptile sites and shows, this is a fact .....the simple fact that the BOI is being monitored is old news.
They are watching everywhere at this time, coming to shows in wheelchairs as part of thier cover , looking closely at herps with a folded bill on the hat [small camera, saw this my self] and asking too many stupidly intelligent questions about what you got.... This might sound like simple paranoia to you all but a ceartain wheelchair bound person at a show last spring was up and walking two days later at a meijer department store[I am sure he did not see me]
The best thing you can do is be LEGAL and follow all local state and city laws pertaining to your herps.
And do not keep receipts to your animals at your house , they will say they are fake if you so happen to get raided.
All receipts are in a disclosed location not on my property
I have seen trucks parked outside my house , these guys get out and pet my dog at the fence. but when the door is opened they leave.
The point I am making is they are getting crafty in thier methods to justify thier worthyness
Hell they have even approached me in Wisconson to do wood turtle counts on my families land [in my familiar way I told them to leave]
time to stop ranting
 
And do not keep receipts to your animals at your house , they will say they are fake if you so happen to get raided.

John, I don't understand this? Are you saying they destroy them (the receipts) and that is the need for a copy at another location? Wouldn't that be evidence tampering? Isn't it a judge's job to decide the validity of the evidence? I understand that it would be an inconvenience to go through the legal process (months of time, head ache and possible seizure of the animals during that time) but I don't see why evidence of your purchase would need to be hidden.
 
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