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for Fred Tom and Kim

C

Classic Dum's

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Tom, I gotta say I love how you guys stick togther, for months Fred can attack someone else and no one besides me jump on him about it but when someone does it to him god forbid they are so very wrong, outclassed me, I dont think so, but thanks for the laugh, thats why Fred hates me and Bill so much because he is Jelous of what weve got, the only shame of all this is to prove a point I lowered myself to Freds level and thats pretty pathetic

Kim the one thing that Chris didnt say about Bills queriuntine is that his area is large enough that there is space and that animals are not directly exposed to each other, the prior topic was about a nonairborn virus, so nothing else Bill had when he had the sicks ones was exposed to the sick ones, Also Kim dont take what is going on here to heart, this has been an ongoing saga since sometime last year that has moved from a couple other forums on other sites to this one, theres a few indiviuals that maybe have never met face to face but are all freinds over the net that have been dragging this on forever, taking little pot shots ever chance they can and encouraging others to do so as well, the reason I go after Fred is because he is largly one of them

Fred, here why dont you take these lyrics to heart ok " Run you mouth when I am not around, it's easy to acheive. You cry to weak freinds that symapthize. Can you hear the violins playing your song? THOSE SAME FREINDS TELL ME YOUR EVERY WORD." Pantera, email forwarding is a wonderful thing there ol freddy boy, be glad it was in times when these forums were quite and I didnt save those emails, anyway I am going to humor since you seem so concerned about my family, first DONT ever tell me what I should and shoulnt do with my family!!!! arent you the jobless one? why dont you get off this computer and hop a buss and go see you daughter?? as you may know me and Danni had our son in Dec we named him J.D. short for Joseph Daniel(and no it had nothing to do with religon, she came up with Joseph and I wanted Daniel because its my middle name) she took 8 weeks off after giving birth(was supposed to be 6) being a vet for the last 4 years I have been going to college full time to be guess what.......a school teacher in the sciences, I have been attending full time and living off my Gi Bill and working part time, well 4wks after he was born I quit my job working at the Illinios Vets retirment home to be a stay home dad and have been ever since, my gi bill runs out in may and I knew I would never have an opertunity to spend time with my son like this again so I took it, life would be alot easier if I was still working, we wouldnt be so far behind in bills and what not, but my son would be in day care and I dont want that, hes there enough the 2 days a week we go to school for 4 or 5 hrs a day, we take all our classes togther to make studying easier and save money on books, and i know this one is going to break your heart Fred but sometime in the not to distant future there is going to be a wedding here, in the mean time I have started a landscaping buisness which is getting rather busy now and for Danni so the kids dont have to go to daycare we are renavating the house to open one for her to run so she can stay home with the kids and still have an income, so does that make you happy fred was there anything I left out that you were wondering?? I got everything here taken care of so why dont you take your own advice and worry about your kids? god forbid I hop online while my son is sleeping during the day or at night after everyone is in bed, so does that answer your ?s Fred
 
IBD is not an airborn virus... Correct!! It is probably CARRIED from cage to cage by mites with legs. Therefore it is a LEGBORN virus.. Proper caution should be be used when a legborn virus is in the building. Casey
 
THANK YOU DARLA.. seeing as the "Vet guy" Jason   didnt understand the point in making about IBD animals in one facility along with the other snakes Mr Cagle was selling to the public, in his facility for his quaranitined snakes. ...... Now back yo  the point BILL did you tell your customers the snakes they bought had been around IBD snakes in the same building?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??/NO of course you didnt then they may buy them from someone else!!! DOHHHHH! ! ! ! !  But also you didnt have to tell them because i forgot you sell only top of the line animals... the sad part is this , hopefully it wont but WHAT IF  one of those snakes you sold had that lil bug with legs ? that made his/her way around the building getting free meals ... WHAT IF!
 
yes i agree its a valed point, and yes the vet guy did see that but there is no mites to discuss here, we can what if till were blue in the face and its doing none of us any good, when he found out about the ibd all those animals were isolated he had bought a large group from the guy, well no mites past or present to report because unlike most everyone else here before  I started what ifing and running in cirlces that was one of my 1st question to Bill are mites a factor in this? he said no I asked if he has had any prior to this that could still be laying dormate somehwere in his building, once again the answer was no, but ill tell ya one thing that spoke volumes to me about the man was without a second thought or concern for the money invested or possible thousands in lost sales over these animals he donated the remaining animals from that source to research of IBD, he didnt care about the money, the guy did the right thing but he gets slammed from everyone, the kid got animals to replace those from Bills personal collection that had never been exposed to those(unless the kid exposed them if thats the case that is his own fault) so what more was he to do? once he was given actual proof of the IBD the rest of the group got donated to research he made good with the kid whats he to do? stop selling? there was no mites,(and NO this cant be passed by your hands either)  so what good would that have done? we can all what if and jump to conclusions but this is all it does is create confusion, also did you know the university of FL is looking for boas that are not positive for IBD, they have tested aniamls that they didnt belive have it guess what they were carriers, you would know what that means ALL of our boas are carriers, every single one, scarry isnt it, now dont go jumping off a bridge with that conclusion............
 
First of all Jason, I have no beef with you. However, I do have a comment or two for you. We all know that the whole "Bill Cagle and IBD" thread is dead. More to the point, decomposed. I can admire you for standing up for your friend. I think everyone here stands up for a friend from time to time. I am well aware of the bad blood that currently exists and will probably continue to for some time. Regardless, Bill's most recent posts were out of line. There was no need for it whatsoever. His "professionalism" was all too apparent. I do not blame anyone for getting on here and ripping him to shreds. If I was involved, I would too. I think Bill Cagle is a supercilious @ss. I think he could have handled himself in a more constructive way. I can see defending yourself against a perceived attack. What I can't see is coming on here and proceeding to make a complete @ss of yourself. I hand it to you for attempting to conduct yourself with a measure of candor. However, there is the old saying.........

....."You are judged by the company you keep".

I am rather curious, Jason. Are you so steadfast in your convictions regarding Bill, that you will risk attaching your reputation to that of Bill's? Keep in mind, this is not an attack on you. Rather comments in a discussion directed to you. I've never dealt with you, so I can and will not comment about you. These are merely my 2 coins on the matter. Take it how you will. Have a nice day!!!  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>
 
Whats happening John, I am just going to copy and paste to make it easier on me, i worked all day and am feeling kind of lazy now lol anyway
"Regardless, Bill's most recent posts were out of line." I have never said anything about his posts or knocked someone for liking or disliking him for those posts, I have only tried to call right and wrong for what has happened pertaining to this situation, these threads have been blown way out of proportion mostly by uneducated people who know little or nothing of the topic or only know the crap they have read online and of course believe it because it was "published" on someones site, I know of only one web site I have read through that evan seemed accurate and that was Pete Kahls beyond his I have never found anything online besides parinod wives tails, if this virus was evan a 1/4 what people are making it to be none of us would have pythons and very few would have boas, its hard to fully explain myself because to be fully honest with you when it comes to this virus the truth and facts that have been found through science, I honestly dont think that 80% of the people that read these forums could handle, you would either see people dumping certain parts of their collections or mass beheadings, there is some very level headed, well thought out and educated people in these forums but over all alot are parinod, flighty, and dont know which way is up

....."You are judged by the company you keep".as far as that saying its nothing but a bunch of weakminded nonsense, the same people that came up with saying were probally wearing white robs and buring crosses in the yards of african americans that they had never even met

"that you will risk attaching your reputation to that of Bill's?" reputations mean nothing to me, there only a few people in this world that have good reputations and have earned them, I go by what I see as right and wrong and deal with who I see as right regaurdless of their reputation

"I think Bill Cagle is a supercilious @ss." did you see everything that has happened on the other forums pertaining to this, this has been going on for months and its mostly the same group of people, or according to some of the emails that have been forwarded to me, people that were encouraged by the origanal group, think about it if it was you under fire like this, by these kinds of people and then everything being blown out of proportion like it has, also the simple fact that blows my mind is everyone hopped right on the band wagon and started firing rounds but not one single person bothered to ask anything, everyone just threw their opinions in there, no one took the time to ask Bill his side of the story till after they slammed him, they just condemed him, but now they stand around and scratch their heads saying he wouldnt answer my questions, well go figure, after months of being worn down like this would you look anymore proffesional? would you care? look at my reply to Alans first post in the other thread, I blew up, I stand by what I said he should have left it alone he didnt need to say what he did but I handled it wrong because after months of being involved in this I have simply worn out, however unlike most others that have been involved in all this, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong mostly everyone else just dissapears, just think about it if it was the other way around, because I am sure you would looking like just as much of a  "supercilious @ss" as you think he is, when this all started he had a differant outlook and aproach same as I did, but this whole deal has turned into nothing more then a total bunch of bu!!sh$t, think about if it was you
 
Now that's what I like to see, Jason. I'm glad we can communicate in some semblance of civility. I'm also glad to see that you can finally react and respond on a more level headed plane. First off, I would like to clarify my position. It has nothing to do with the past history regarding Bill Cagle, IBD, bad dealings and the like. It has to do with his last couple of statements. To me, his past is his past. I was not involved. However, he has no right to make the blanket statements that we were all idiots. I stand behind my statement. He is a pompous @ss.

As for putting myself in his place. First off, I am merely a private collector. Not a dealer or breeder. However, if I were to place myself in his shoes, I would say this: My reputation and my professionalism would be of utmost priority for me. IMO, at least 75% of a dealers customer base is in fact based on word of mouth. If I had to defend myself, I would do it tactfully yet effectively. Alot of judgemental people base their opinions on what they read or hear. I would not want the way I portray myself on a forum to misrepresent me as a businessman. You and I both know that people take notice of that.

As a person, not a dealer, I say that I could care less of what people think of me. Were I to have to defend myself publically, I would react differently. To be honest, my anger would most likely get the better of me. I would be on the attack, and I would not back down. Regardless. I too am man enough to admit when I am wrong. Though I still will not back down.

But we are not talking of Bill as a person, rather a dealer. And he should conduct himself as such. His recent posts are not conducive to that of a reputable dealer. I see your point well and it is valid. I too would probably grow tired of being bumrushed by a group of people for several months at a time. I too would become frazzled and may snap occasionally. However, as a businessman, that can not be justified. Nor tolerated. IMO, that raises questions of his integrity as a dealer. Keep in mind I am not currently attacking his integrity as a dealer. I think that if I see a dealer on a forum calling everyone in the herping world an "idiot", that in itself would make me shy away from any dealings because I could not be certain that he would treat me professionally.

Myself, I don't agree with the bandwagon mentality. I myself have been on a bandwagon before. In that case, I was directly involved and it was concerning a very BAD DEALER. Anyways, I agree with you. Each side has the right to be represented fairly. Yes Jason, I even think Bill does. But the fact still remains. The bandwagon still rolls on. Sad but true.

Anyways, I've enjoyed debating with you. Right on. You bring good and bad points to the table. You probably will, but feel free to respond. I can dish it and I can take it!!! *LOL*

By the way, before I forget. Good luck with the whole family and business thing you got going on.   <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>
 
jason ,

ok im here ... now i will ask you this as i recall it when Dale was found to be the person that sold Bill the snakes with IBD did he not get raked over the coals? yes he did . Ok now why would one person that sold IBD  to another that sold the same IBD to yet another desreve any better? ok yes bill offerd new snakes .But me  personally i would have been nice and just asked for my $ to be refunded for the amount of the snakes plus the amount of the vets tests to determine that it infact was IBD. Ok Now on the note of Dale  , if i remeber correctly people calledfor dale to resume selling snakes  i think thats what i saw in the many IBD threads that were out at the time .I cant speak for how some people were taught / raised but i was always told only you can be responsible for your actions and no one else .In this case im reffering to the fact that Dale did what was asked as far as i have seen and that was to stop selling snakes due to the IBD issues .So why would that put Bill on any higher standard  to not heed the same , no one as i recalled it asked him to "go out of buisness  butto simply put a disclaimer on his adds and possibly hold off for a while on selling ... snakes till everything could be sorted out .. did he .NO he kept right on advertising his "screamers" for sale and acting like he never had IBD in his place , now i will admit before this all came out i had even thought of saving a lil cash and maybe even getting one of his "screamers" but after the #### hitthe fan i decided i would do the wise thing and sit on it  and see what played out .Now i am not in any clicks , bandwagons or anything to that matter i am simply me i take no leads from anyone else and dont expect anyone to take leads from me . To me it just seems  regardless of the BS bill has tolisten to he thinks he is so much better then the rest of us , granted i dont sell any number of " high class  snakes" each week or even each month im just a small timer in the world of others, if i was to have sold someone a snake with IBD  i know i would have ceased all sales regardless of what the cause to do so  i would have done it out of respect fot fellow snakes buyers / owners & collectors. I have made this statement once and will again when asked how bill did his quarintine he said in his own words none of the snakes  that had IBD were around  the ones he bred or sold or his own "prized collection" ok well thats a good answer UNTILL he told chris that all his snakes were inthe same building??? ok what i see in this is either someone who lied ? someone who got the story confused or someone who didnt care ? Now as to saying none of his snakes have mites <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> i think thats a strtch .. mites are very hard to see  now  it only tales a very few to go along way ? i dont care if his building is 400 sf or 40000 sf  i think he owed it to potential customers to make them aware of what he was/is dealing with to let them make a totally informed descision. now with that i mean this ok say you inquire of a snake from Joe blow  and John does has a snake but his name isnt as poplular  as Joe blows  butthe snake looks just as nice and is probably less expensive. ok if you planned on buying this type snake would you go to the guy that had a more popular name and buy cause he has all the catch phrases like "screamer" and all  but he didnt tell you that he is or had just dealt with a deal where he obtained snakes that were IBD postive and that even though the snakes were in the same building but apart fromone another would you still buy that same snake from him ? or if you called John doe and had the same looking snake  and asked him hey i just talke  with Joe Blow and he has this awsome snake but he told me he had IBD at his place ,,, have you ever had any snakes with IBD? and the answer is no .. who would you give your money to ?i think that there is kinda a given .. well to me it would be  IMO i think Bill has done everything to sway blame and attention away from the fact that no matter where it came from he hadIBD and his name was dirtied with a lil mud but instead of informing possible buyers he chooses to chastise all  of the herp world and be little us into thinking were idiots and ruing a place like this ?  well i wont and dont buy that for a sec . In my books Bill is no better then any of us and with that i can say i  for one know hes no better then me ... because as of now ... guess what!!  i dont have IBD  on my name ? not saying i wont or i cant have itthere one day as i know all it takes is for the moon and the starts to line up right and BLAM anyone can have it   , but having it is the easy part how you handle it when you have it is the hard part
 
LOL thanks man, anyway as far as us comunicating, I have no prob comunicating with anyone who wants to have an actual conversation or debate, ya know speak your peace ask logical questions and make your desicions but dont go jump on the wagon, point fingers, and  then turn around a b!tch because someone dont want to answer your questions that should have been asked in the first place,  as far as the whole idiot thing you speak of i just seen that post a couple of minutes ago and honestly really dont know what to say, I was kind of confused earlier when I read your first post, i dunno......... shaking my head......... lol..crazy world
anyway I out of here for the night. Later on dude
 
My above post was directed towards John


Alan
".But me  personally i would have been nice and just asked for my $ to be refunded for the amount of the snakes" well thats you, dont qoute me on this but if I rember correctly the kid wanted the second pair of snakes over the money

"In this case im reffering to the fact that Dale did what was asked as far as i have seen and that was to stop selling snakes due to the IBD issues " if you honestly think he all togther stopped selling snakes, they hey believe what you want, he only did that online to save face because he got busted, if he was half the person you seem to think he is he would have taken the effort on his own if he meant it not done it after reading all the slams in these forums, he say one thing that when he stopped selling all the attention went to Bill, his efforts were fake

"no one as i recalled it asked him to "go out of buisness  butto simply put a disclaimer on his adds and possibly hold off for a while on selling" well did you ever happen to think or before you guys demanded he do this did any of you ask what he did to prevent any further spread? who inspected the animals? etc. etc. etc NOPE you guys just accused and DEMANDED what you thought was right

"i know i would have ceased all sales regardless of what the cause to do so" well once again I will ask did you or anyone else think to ask how he handled the situation?? Ill answer that NO, how do you know he didnt have a very knowledgable vet out there to inspect everything prior to all this even being posted on the BOI, you dont because you never asked, same as no one else did

"but having it is the easy part how you HANDLE IT when you have it is the hard part" did you or anyone one else take the time to ask how the situation was handled??ahhh once again..........hmmmmmmmmmmmm......lets see.....NOPE, man that was a shocker

maybe next time instead of throwing around what you think is right, calling the person on the phone or privatly throw email, you ask some questions you may learn a thing or two, it may enlighten you a little bit, so if ya wanna continue running in circles hey I could use the exercise that sun is a killer, but everything there I have heard before, ask some questions next time
 
Alan
" Now as to saying none of his snakes have mites  i think thats a strtch" why is that a strech because the truth doesnt fit what you wanna believe, now we are back to what ifing and ops theres that word again "streching" the truth do you have some kind of evidense to prove it is such a strech for him not to have mites or you only claiming that because your ohhhhh were not going to go there
 
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
 
Jason,
 Just in case you didn't read my last post in BOI, here it is and I am not speaking or defending for anyone.  I am simply calling it like I see it!

I came here to the BOI to see what people were posting about boa breeders and about IBD.  I had been to kingsnake.com and left because of Cagle and Dum Jason!  Now I come here and they are at it again!  Here is my personal opinion:  Cagle is stuck on himself, but not as stuck as Jason is to Cagle!  Jason gets offended more than Cagle when people talk about Cagle.  Therefore, Jason must be Cagle’s little (how should I say this?) female dog!  Who cares about Cagle and Jason?  I don’t!  I have never met them or even seen them and really don’t care for them because of their attitude and acting like my 5 year old and 8 year old.  I would never buy any reptiles from them.  I am sure their attitude reflects their business ethics and right now that is very bad.  I am sure all of Cagle reptiles can’t be bad, but his attitude of being “GOD” makes him look very ugly and God does not like ugly!  Jason, I think you should just really go somewhere and just be you and stop trying to be Bill Cagle!  That identity is already taken!  Why are you always bashing Fred?  He had completely forgotten about the issues, when YOU started kicking the dead horse, not him!  Therefore, you can stop it now, because you are an idiot and a fool like Bill said, because you started this issue again!  Therefore, your “Daddy” Bill was talking to you too!  Therefore, you need to step up to the plate!  Why is it that every time you and Bill go to a forum or have any discussion on a website it gets closed down!  Think about it, who is the fool and idiot?  I don’t see anyone else getting forums closed!  This website was peaceful until you and Bill came here!  So do me a favor, keep things professionally or stay off!  And Jason, I know you are going to try to twist my words around, by saying I am not acting professionally, but like I said this is my personal opinion and not my professional opinion.  So please let the horse die!!  Thanks!!!!

Andre
 
Andre
your little comments about Fred lead me to beieve your buddies with him, that would explain why your post full of nothing but piss and lies, first off you didnt have to read so if your so tired of the topic, then next time dumb a$$ dont click on the link, or does it take the inteligence of a female dog to figure that one out, inteligence you obviously dont have, getting forums shut down, cant you come up with any better lies? come on you looser if you are going to make lies atleast make them logical, I didnt have to twist your words around because there nothing but lies, you screwed that one up yourself bud, get a life

"You take great pride in never having lived up to anything
Lie steal cheat and kill a real bad guy
Your daddy is a winno, and your mommy is quite insane
from altar boy to sewer rat you dont give a damn
Your sister is a junkie, gets "it" anyway she can
Your brother is a gay singer in a stud leather band
Your girlfreind' s got herpes to go with her hep and aides
there aint one person you know you aint ripped off yet
Look deep in the mirror, look deep into itsa eyes
Your face is replaced by a creature you dipise
I know what your made of, it much Im afraid
I know youll be lying till your dying day

You're a liar
A F%$&ING LIAR
Filthy Liar"
Megadeth, Dave Muistane,Liar, So Far So Good So What, 1987

Have a nice day <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>
 
"that was one of my 1st question to Bill are mites a factor in this? he said no I asked if he has had any prior to this that could still be laying dormate somehwere in his building, once again the answer was no,"
Does Bill sell wild caught snakes? He has never had mites in the building where he houses them?.......... Oh O.K. Casey
 
Hey John one more thing I was thinking about with reputatuions and IBD I know of one of the largest breeders of boa morphs in this country that has sent two differant people 3 seperate animals that died of IBD, you wanna know how he keep his good reputation? he sends off more animals worth more then the ones bought under a gag order so no one leaks the truth and ruins his wonderful reputation, considering all three animals were from seperate litters and were produced in differant years I would think it is safe to say his collection is infested or atleast certain parts of it are, and he knowing keeps producing and selling these animals, but hey hes one of the "big names" so its ok for him to bribe people to keep their mouths shut, but dont ask because I wasnt involved in all that I was just told by someone who had seen the vet reports, so I am not going to had out any names, it was confirmed by one of the people involved, but its not my place, I just wanted to make a point about what I was saying yesterday about very few "good reputations" actually being earned, later on dude
 
I've been reading this thread and notice that it keeps being said that there are "NO MITES". Now I find this confusing, because back in the original IBD posts it's says they did have mites. Here's a copy and paste of what was posted.

"I GOT MY 5 NEW BOAS AND WENT HOME. ME AND MY HELPER TALKED ABOUT WHAT A GREAT DEAL I HAD GOTTEN FROM DALE, ALL THE WAY HOME. I GOT THE ANIMALS HOME, PUT THEM IN THE QUARANTINE BUILDING, AND SPRAYED THEM FOR MITES, AS I DO WITH ALL MY "NEWCOMERS". UNFORTUNATELY, THEY HAD A FEW MITES, BUT I GOT THEM CLEARED UP WITHIN A FEW DAYS."
      This is the group of boas that the IBD came from. It was from a post on the BOI. Now if these boas had mites how can anyone say "there were no mites???" Just curious.
                               Linda
 
Boy, do I feel like an ass, I do stand corrected that has been so long ago, with so much going on I completly forgot that, Thank you for posting that Linda, now I think I will just step out go over here a chew on my foot for a little while, Jason
 
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