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Giants and temperment ?

DiabloBoa

DiabloBoa

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ive been simmering on this for a while and figured id find out what you all think
well my giant albino Odin is by far my chillest, calmest leo and has always been. Ron Trempers site states "Giant albinos are all naturally tame!" i understand that large breed mastiffs were bred to be very large but their hearts did not grow to keep up with the animals needs causing a shorter lifespan.

my question is do any of you think that the possibility of less bloodflow may contribute to the giants tendancy for a docile "relaxed" demeanor? any other suggestions for this occourance?

not that im impying any health problems from this situation just less oomph.the relation between morphs and there effect on the animal is facsinating to me like blizzards tending to be tempermental (ive read that while breeding for thinner heads in dobies caused a condition where that animals would become aggressive due to headaches from exitement and something about a merle gene that interfered with liver function...i think)so its seems obvoius that while breeding for morphs other traits we dont see come with them. (i know my dog examples are all neg but i think it relates in a way)

sorry its soo long but i said ive been simmering on this for a while
 
i have 4 ginats now, and only one is pretty docile, that would be the male, the female is not to bad but she has bitten me a few times while i handled her, and the others are just very skiddish

i dont know about the blizzards with headaches, i think temperment from the first leos that created blizzards were passed down to todays blizzards, and when 2 leos with bad temperments breed, the babies grow up to be monsters also, i have a tang albino male that is VERY agressive, he fathered 2 babies this season and both have very bad temperments, thats just my 2cents, your theory could very well be true also
 
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i wasnt implying that blizzards got headaches just mentioning another situation where breeding affected temperment. i didnt really beleive that all giants were docile, theres bound to be exceptions, but i am familiar with some of Trempers claims on his animals being maybe a little off.i could just have a nice calm leo.
 
figured id show him off

hes my favorite to kick it with so here he is
 

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awesome leo, i really like his contrast, the bright tang color on the darker bands, very nice

heres my male
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Well, I can't say anything necessarily about the actual question you posted, but I can tell you that the dog scenarios you posted are in general "old wives tales". I did get a kick out of the Dobe story when I first heard it many years ago at a dog show....people who preferred the "old German style" Dobe actually claimed that the narrow heads were squishing the dogs' brains, lol. Never been any scientific basis for any of it.The merle gene CAN however be a problem if not bred properly....you never breed one merle to another merle, I know this can lead to blindness and deafness, so I suppose there is a chance the gene can lead to other problems, but never heard of it affecting the liver.

I really don't believe that the larger size contributes to the "mellowness", I think it's just the selectively bred temperaments. Just as some breeds of dogs are "statistically" more mellow than others, I think the same applies to all animals, including herps and humans. ;)

BTW......beautiful pics. :)
 
I have 1.2 Giants and they are some of the camlest leos I have, esp the male, he just walks over and climbs up on my hand when I check on him each am and the females are never skiddish.
 
Well, I have only one juvie giant (SO FAR :) ) to observe, but yes he is very mellow with me. I wouldn't say he lacks oomph at all tho. You should see him chase down and murder a superworm. He's got plenty of energy and vigor I think!

About Giants, IMO its too soon to really know if there are any long term health issues with them, altho I think it is a possibility. But I hope none crop up cause I now like giants a lot!
 
geez Dan nice giant

as for my dog scenarios they are just some info i came across recently im def. no expert just lookin for other examples of morphs and their effects.

i did know that you can breed for temperment in alot of animals and should have fit that in but do you think Tremper took the time to breed giants for temperment or just for the giant albino.

My giant is quite lively during breeding and feeding as well. hes just way calmer than any of my others like most of the time
 
comparing mammals to reptiles...

vinny i think the reference to the mastiff with the small heart is great. it points out how superficially everything is where "we" like it while internally there can be a problem we overlook. but with giants this may not be the case...

a bengal cat is a cross of an asian leopard cat (prionailurus bengalensis or felis bengalensis) and a domestic cat.

according to a web site i visited researching them, the bangal community has declared a temperment standard "Cat may exhibit fear, seek to flee, or generally complain outloud, but may not threaten to harm. Bengals should be confident, alert, curious and friendly cats."

so when you take a wild cat (from asia) and you cross it to a domestic cat (from the u.s.) you get a moderate temperment between the two. anything else is considered unacceptable, at least amongst the hobbiests and governing factions therof.

that being said i do believe that temperment is breedable, at least in mammals. cats and dogs are far more advanced as far as the functions of their brain are concerned however. but thats not to say that leopard geckos dont exhibit behavior and that part of the brain isnt intact and variably inheritable.

it would be interesting to look into the variations in behavior from gecko to gecko and keep track of their genetic heritage. i wonder if patterns would emerge.

hey vinny check out this website on bengal cats and tell me if you think buddy might have some bengal blood flowing in him. heres a picture for those of you that dont know buddy (he was a wild rescue from my grandmothers backyard)... either way i was thinking of crossing him to a snow bengal cat.
 

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any other examples of breeding for mutations where it affected other aspects of the animal that may apply better than mine and how do you figure this is? im esp looking at some psych. affects but would love to see other phys. type situations
thanks for sharing all
 
neat site Chad but the fact that they disqualify for "any sign of definate challenge" says "bred for temperment" to me.

Buddy is definatly 1 cool damn cat but im sure he stood out in your grandmas backyard as 1 cool cat
 
neat site Chad but the fact that they disqualify for "any sign of definate challenge" says "bred for temperment" to me.
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thats basically why i pointed out the bengal cat. it says on just about every site i visited that they typically have a friendly demeanor.

just think about taking a pit bull out bird hunting. bird dogs (retrievers and such) have been bred to possess the instincts needed to perform the task of fetching game while pitbulls have been bred for fighting. most likely the pit bull would return with a feather dangling form its mouth or try to play tug of war with the carcass where as a labrador retriever would drop the game for thier master. im not claiming to be an expert on dogs but i think theres a reason a pit bull is called such and a retriever is called such as well.

but still i struggle with the comparison of mammals to reptiles being as there are so many differences beginnig with the size of their brain. if it turns out you can breed for temperment in geckos though, that sure would be a benificial tactic for tokay gecko breeders.

Buddy is definatly 1 cool damn cat but im sure he stood out in your grandmas backyard as 1 cool cat
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definately! both the cats ive rescued from her backyard over the years have had the same playfully feral, confident personality. much like what is explained of bengal cats. in addition to that they both have ringed tails with black tips, muscular shoulders, longer hind legs and a playful curiosity towards water. ninja (the other rescued cat i had) hops in the shower with you!!!

i know its probably a long shot to assume buddy or ninja are bengal cats based on a few similarities but just think of caucasians with high cheek bones... most of them have native american blood in them to some degree. i mean, id assume, because everytime i tell someone im 1/8th cherokee they say "oh yeah you have the high cheek bones."

WOW vinny! between the two of us weve gone from comparing leopard geckos to dogs than to cats back to dogs again and than humans. this is a fun little discussion. maybe ill come back later and compare them to monkeys or fish or something...lol!

heres a picture of buddy when i found him... just for fun.
 

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If you want to talk real physical problems caused by breeding (back to dogs again, lol) you have to look no further than either the German Shepherd Dog or the English Bulldog. Both breeds have been so selectively bred for simple "attarctive" physical attributes, their overall health and ability to function has been impaired, as well as the GSD often having temperament problems. The GSD you see in today's show ring is inevitably a "cowhocked" dog, sometimes to the extreme that there's no way in heck you could ever take them out and have them perform the job they were originally bred to do, herding and guarding the flock, for any length of time. Hip dysplasia has become almost "commonplace" in the GSD. They have also been so over-bred (read mass-produced) that the temperament that they were originally bred for, a "people friendly, but stand-offish, protect ONLY if needed, but do so well" has turned in favor of an unstable, unpredictable temperament.

The English Bulldog, well, you can look at them and see where they have gone, all because of breeding for a physical appearance. 99% of Bulldogs cannot even reproduce normally, their heads are so large and bodies so short and stocky, not to mention their lack of ability to breathe properly, means that not only can a male not mount a female and breed her (poor guys!) the females cannot give birth either. All reproduction is done by artificial means....artificial insemination through an automatic c-section.

Now mind you, this is a general overview of each breed as the "show people" have created. Each breed still has its wonderful attributes present in some animals. But it raises a lot of questions about breeding simply for color, or size, or any physical characteristic, without thinking of the long term effects and considering what impact that it will have on future generations of animals.
 
giant male

with my wife my male is very calm, but if i try to pick him up he gets very jumpy and couple of times tried to bite me.
 
with my wife my male is very calm, but if i try to pick him up he gets very jumpy and couple of times tried to bite me.
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it could be your approach. i dont know how you go about it but try waving him onto your hand first, like you would a tarantula, rather than picking him up.
 
there was a wealth of information pertaining to complimentary genes while i was researching albino dobies all pointing out the negative. maybe a little biased but im sure valid.also a genetics book ive read at Chads showed a family of albinos (human) that really illustrated complimentary genes for me. they all had a different look to their features that was undeniable.
 
Ah, the albino Dobes. That's an ongoing war among the Dobe people....to some extent, for good reason. There is, however, a difference between the true "albino" Dobe, and the ones which are white but have blue eyes. Both varieties tend to display more health problems than the "normal" colored Dobe, but the blue eyed to a lesser extent, and somewhat different problems. It is true, however, that albinism DOES come with health problems whichever variety. There are people who truly love the look of the white/blue eyed Dobe, and who are attempting to selectively breed out some of those problems, it has yet to be seen that they can remove them entirely, but they have been successful at reducing the occurence. But as a rule, the white DObe must be selectively bred FOR to get it, though in rare instances, as in humans, albinos just "pop up".

White Boxers occur much more frequently than white Dobes, however, and although they too can have some health problems related to the white gene, they are affected to a much lesser extent....usually deafness and skin problems being the major concern. The white Boxer occurs quite commonly, no matter how "good" the bloodline is, even though some of the "show" people will claim they've never had one....usually meaning they've culled them at birth. One has to wonder.
 
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