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Gray area of 'venomous'?

R

romad119

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I live in NY where as of 1 jan 05, venomous snakes and otehrs were made illegal. I just emailed DEC to see if they keep a listing by species due to the many rear fange dthat are 'harmless'. i doubt they have that but its worth a try.

What rear fanged out there are harmless in relation to humans? Any help on this gray area between "It has venom" and "It can injure an adult person" would be appreciated.
 
The more important question that would need to be answered first is how does the law you are referring to define venomous? I'm not familiar with the exact wording of it.
The point being if the law as written does not make a distinction between front and rear fanged species then the fact some are considered harmless to humans would be irrelevant, you still couldn't legally keep them. I guess it would depend lagely on if the definition was based on the ability to produce a venom or the delivery method.

That being said, the hognose group is a good example of a rear fanged species considered harmless. Other examples are certain species of night snakes from the genus Hypsiglena, the Lyre snake, and Flying snakes of the genus Chrysopelea.
The hognose is by far the most commonly kept harmless rear fanged species.
 
Clay,

I've emailed the DEC to check on this and mentioned the native hognose as an example. Hopefully they take things species by species vs. trying to make hognoses illegal next. lol Or maybe at least groupings of what they consider to be 'Hots'.

I'm looking at a mussurana and have info from several places dealing with antivenoms and toxicology, etc and studies on the mildness of their venom (lists mild local swelling and brusing) for them. So if they ask particulars I have some products for them to hopefully help them make an informed decision.
 
I am betting on an ambiguous answer or not to get a reply at all. In those cases i will move forward on the purchase.
 
Just move to Texas. They could care less what you owned, and don't even require education on what you are keeping.

Sorta stupid IMHO, but that's how things are out here.
 
Unfortunately true...

crotalusadamanteus said:
Just move to Texas. They could care less what you owned, and don't even require education on what you are keeping.

Sorta stupid IMHO, but that's how things are out here.
Click to expand...

And hopefully this will not backfire on us! It is the reason I moved from Illinois to Texas over 20 years ago!
 
As suggested earlier, it's a very good idea to pin down your State's 'venomous' species law. Georgia, for example, just states that "all opistoglyphous snakes" are illegal to maintain.

It's possible that New York details rear-fanged by species, but I wouldn't count on it.
 
California Laws

In California, the law (last I checked) specified Elapids, Vipers and Pit vipers as illegal; rear fangs are listed as legal with the exception of Boomslangs and Twig Snakes (by latin name; probably because of the nature of their venom).
Local laws can be more problematic. Just because any given state state allows hots does not mean your county or city does; some city laws simply state that anything venomous is prohibited.

The funny thing about California is that if you have a valid fishing license you are allowed to keep 2 of each native rattlesnake species legally! Any idiot with $25-$30 or whatever it costs now, can get one and keep rattlesnakes. IMO this is stupid because rattlers are much more dangerous than the copperheads I wish I could keep with my 20 years of (nonvenomous) snake experience. I knew a guy about 15 years ago who was keeping a northern pacific rattlesnake he caught (he only kept lizards prior to that); his stupid :censored: thought he could hold it one day and guess what... hospital for almost a month and his hand never fully recovered.

My final 2 cents on this gray area, take it however you wish; sometimes these gray areas can be good if you want to keep something hot but the same gray area can allow the unintelligent, inexperienced general public get into trouble and ruin things for those with experience when they :censored: up and there is an accident or tragedy. Bad press = more bans of harmless species.
My advice to ANYONE who wishes to keep something that exploits a gray area is: "you better know what the :censored: you are doing". Also remember that if you have even one illegal specimen in your house, you will throw your entire collection into question (in the eyes of the law) if you are caught.
Reptile keepers have to tread so very carefully right now and some things are not worth the risk to the reptile community as a whole. If you want to bend or break the law, Think about how your actions could affect your fellow keepers; keeping your personal reptile dealings safe and legal means we will all have more ground to stand on.
 
Excellent points, Jon. I concur fully.

Several years ago, about twenty years ago now, I occasionally consulted with Dan Keyler at the Minnesota Poison Control Center. At the time, I was assigned to Navy Fleet Hospital Twenty-three as their Public Information Specialist. Since I was an amateur herpetologist, they also assigned me to the toxicology department as their herpetologist.

Dan and I were in the process of milking a panamint rattler. When we had finished, he casually asked me to grab the cage directly behind me and set it on the milking table. A little practical joke in his eyes. However, when I same the placard for C. scutulatus, I promptly set the cage back down and informed him that he could handle that one himself.

I mention this because of your point about people with insufficient practical experience or knowledge getting into the venomous snake maintenance community. You can imagine how dangerous for someone who thinks he or she has a western diamondback having an accident with a mojave and thinking it's a dry bite.

Keeping any venomous reptile is a risky proposition. I've seen far too many accidents with them involving people who thought "Oh, this is my pet. He won't hurt me." A lot of digital amputations start that way, if the victim is lucky.

My only hot snake is a Giant Madagascar Hognose. I would love to have a Mangrove but, unfortunately, I have a blood condition requiring that I stay on blood thinners at all times. A bite from a coagulopathic snake would be fatal for me.

Rear-fangs are a lot of fun, but the prospective owner had better known what he or she is getting into. The "Oh, it's only rear-fanged" attitude can lead to some very uncomfortable surprises. I know. I tangled with a Montpelier and lost. Once is enough.
 
In Washington all "dangerous" venomous is illegal (all rear fanged are Ok with the exception of boomslangs) and while this keeps the rattlesnakes and cobras out of the hands of some people who shouldn't own them I feel its a little to restrictive. Personally I would love to own a cobra at some point in my life but with the law I don't see how I could even get the experience I would need to own one safely (soiI won't). I wish the government could see other options than just outright banning things.
 
I just wish the gov't would make it something you could be licensed for, like a "class A" license of sorts that requires a certain amount of testing and certification procedures that are reasonably attainable. Heck, the state could make money on the certification process.
I agree that public safety is paramount but sometimes the law is just too restrictive. In CA it is nearly impossible to get a permit without being a zoo or institution of some type, hence I have boids.
 
Look into how falconry permitting works I think most responsible hot keepers would agree that a similar apprenticeship program and permit requirements would work great.
 
Troy: Just a question regarding Washington; You mentioned that the Boomslang is the only opisthoglyph considered illegal in your State. Does Washington not restrict the Mussurana and the Mangrove?
 
Here's the section of Washington law that defines what reptiles are banned at the state level " (b) Class reptilia

(i) Order squamata

(A) Family atractaspidae, all species;

(B) Family colubridae, only dispholidus typus;

(C) Family elapidae, all species, such as cobras, mambas, kraits, coral snakes, and Australian tiger snakes;

(D) Family hydrophiidae, all species, such as sea snakes;

(E) Family varanidae, only water monitors and crocodile monitors;

(F) Family viperidae, all species, such as rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, bushmasters, puff adders, and gaboon vipers;

(ii) Order crocodilia, all species, such as crocodiles, alligators, caimans, and gavials."
 
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