Hay's Haven

[gwbolton]

WARNING TO ALL REPTILE BUYERS...............
THIS GUY SOLD ME SICK GECKOS. THE DISEASE IS NOT LIMITED TO GECKOS ONLY THOU. BEWARE ON BUY FROM HIM. HE HAS REFUSED TO MAKE GOOD ON THE SALE. THIS IS THE FIRST BAD DEAL I HAVE HAD IN OVER 10 YEARS IN DEALING WITH HERPS. BUT THIS GUY IS A BAD ONE. THE SICK ALBINO LEOPARD GECKOS HE SOLD ME ALSO CAUSE MY FAT TAIL GECOKS TO DIE TO. THIS WAS VERIFIED BY A LOCAL VET. SO I RECOMMEND NOT TO BUY ANYTHING FROM HAY'S HAVEN OR JASON HAYS. IF YOU DO IT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK.
GARY BOLTON

 

[ms_terese]

Sorry for the loss of your animals, Gary

Will you please provide as many details as you can, i.e., the date you recieved the sick animals, when you notified the seller, when the animals went to the vet, etc.?

Thanks, and good luck with your remaining animals.

 

[hayshaven]

Gary bought 8 leopard geckos from me on 8/24/2002. Approximately a week later he called saying that the 3 albinos were sick. He also stated that he had bought some baby fattails from another breeder before he got mine and they had died right after mine arrived. Keep in mind that at this time the ones he had bought from me were still alive. He got a refund or replacement from the other breeder. Which in my mind would say that he had also blamed them for the death of his lizards. We contacted eachother a few times over the next week or so. During this time he changed the vets diagnosis a number of times, along with the number of my leos that he had lost. Originally there was 1 dead, 1 sick, 1 OK. It changed next to 2 dead, 1 OK. Then all 3 were supposedly dead. Next thing you know there was only 1 that had died. To this day I still don't know for sure how many if any died. After talking to 2 other breeders (That have asked to not be mentioned) who have had bad experiences dealing with Gary Bolton. I talked it over with my wife and we decided that not to send him the gecko. I understand the risk that I'm taking by not sending him the gecko. But I honestly believe that my geckos were extremely healthy when they left here, and that the fattails were the original cause of the problem. I e-mailed him about this, but he outright said he doesn't want to talk about the fattails. I have a large list of references, if anyone is interested. If anyone has any questions to ask about this, please feel free to e-mail me at: [email protected]
Jason Hays

 

[gwbolton]

reply to hays haven

i have never changed what the vet. said was the reason. and the fattails that i had died i had for a over a month before i got the geckos off you and they where health til your geckos arrived. i took your geckos to the vet i use the day after i got them like any other animal i get to protect my other animals. at that time the one died and the other two where in poor shape from a infection which they had from before i received them. the fattails where at the vet before and where given a clean bill of health. they also came from a quality breeder. Mark Leshock of M.L. REPTILES. and i use a top vet at Lincoln Hgy Vet Hospital here in Lancaster. who did an autopsy on the first albino and the infection was wide spread in her. that doen't happen that fast he told me or it doesn't happen if you would have taken proper care of them. so i tried to save the other two with meds. i got from the vet. and lost them also becuase the infection was too far gone. where is this my fault. you sold me sick geckos and you think i should just lose the 150 dollars on the deal. what kind of honest person deal with people like this. NO OTHER PERSON I HAVE DEALT WITH HAS BEEN AS DISHONEST AS YOU. and now you don't like it when i complain about it. i not only lost the albinos but also my whole colony of fattail breeder because of you. and you don't think i should be upset. and all i ask for is to get back what i paid for the albinos only. nothing else not even shipping. your unthinkable act messed up my stock for the next year or so. but maybe this is the way you get rid of other breeders. any question to me can be email to gwboltoncomcast.net

 

[Darin Chappell]

Assuming for the sake of argument that the leos were shipped sick, how did THAT fact cause the death of the fat tails? If you take all animals to the vet in order to keep your other animals safe, do you not also quarrantine new arrivals??? That part doesn't make much sense to me. I cannot see how it would be the fault of Jason that the fat talis died, no matter what.

Also, do you have documentation from your vet that you could post here? Do you have pictures of the dead geckos? I have to admit that I would be hesitant in sending you any replacement animals based solely on what you've outlined here. I'm really sorry you've lost animals, but you really do need to document what you've accused Jason of doing here, Gary.

By the way, the TOS for the BOI requires that you use your fullname with each and every post. You might want to edit your signature line so that you don't have to worry about that requirement in the future.

 

[gwbolton]

i am not asking anything about the fat tails. the day i brought this to jis attention he told me he would send me some babies as soon as they hatched. months go by no geckos. i goto his site to find one of the babies for sale. he replies haveno money will send when i do. then i get email will be sending it to you. still haven't received. once i start to get mad he suddenly decides to say he has people who say i do bad dealings. to try to cover up the fact he shipped sick herps. and won't make good on the deal. as for proof of that
Hello Gary,
I have the money for shipping now. Just waiting for some temps in the 30s preferably. I'll let you know before I ship.
Jason
CHECK OUT OUR BEARDED DRAGONS ETC.. AT: http://hayshaven.tripod.com .

never got that shipment as to this date. so i sent him this email...
From: Gary Bolton
To: VERONICA PARKER
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: temped albino geckos


was wondering about when you were going to ship him.........?

then suddenly i get this lie sent to me...
After talking to 2 other breeders that have had problems dealing with you. And since your story of the problem has changed too many times for me to even count. I've decided not to ship you the lizard.
ok problem there i only have dealt with 2 guyS in ILL. jason being one of them i talked to the other no problems there. 2 in penna. no problems there . the liazrd lady no problems there. 3 in fl. no complains there. and 3 in ca. all ok there too. oops i guess he forgot i keep track of all reptile the enter and leave my home. gotta thank mark for that idea. and if i did have any problems they would have reported me to paypal which is who i use for most of my transactions. no complaints there either.
so he sold sick animals said he would make good on it and failed to do so. an this according to him is all my fault. all i want is what i am due back what i paid for the albinos nothing more or less.

 

[sputnik]

Quarrantine????

It's unfortunate that they died, but Just how exactly did the leos contaminate the fat tails?

All new arrivals should be quarrantined and proper care should be taken when handling new arrivals and then handling all other animals. If not, then spreading disease is easily done.

You state that the leos caused the fat tails to die and that this statement is backed up by a vet.

So, show us the vets documentation that proves this.

one died and the other two where in poor shape from a infection which they had from before i received them.

What infection, please show vet documentation as to what the infection was.

i not only lost the albinos but also my whole colony of fattail breeder because of you.

If basic quarrantining rules had of been followed, then chances are you wouldn't of lost the fat tail colony.

If you are going to make accusations that someone is being dishonest etc, then you need to back up those accusations with the documentation needed.

Otherwise, you have ZERO proof that Jason is responsible for any wrong doing.

 

[ms_terese]

Gary,

Please slow down. If you could provide some facts on some things, it will help.

1) What date did you receive the geckos?
2) What date did you take them to the vet?
3) What date did each of them die?
4) Did you provide the seller with the vet report and/or photos of the dead animals?
5) Can you post the vet report and or those photos here?

The first email you posted means nothing, because there is no header or date on it.

Please provide some DOCUMENTATION in some understable form and order.

 

[sputnik]

FORGOT TO MENTION

You say that two other breeders had problems with him, but don't want their names mentioned.

Well, if they don't want their names mentioned then what they say means nothing and no point in even mentioning that two other breeders had problems!

Kind a hollow!

 

[hayshaven]

You're right Scott. I probably shouldn't have posted about the other 2 breeders without the ablility to give their names. The problem is that if I give their names, they could face the same type of criticism that I am now. I use the BOI often and appreciate that it's here. But in this situation I hope that everyone sees that I'm just standing up for myself and that I believe in my word enough to take the slander from Gary that I am now.
Jason Hays

 

[sputnik]

SLANDER?

Slander yes, and it will remain slander until Gary produces proof to the accusations he made.

If he doesn't, well I am not going to believe what he says based on his comments.

He has at this point provided more questions then answers and provided no proof at all so far that you (Jason) are guilty of anything.

At this point it makes me wonder who the victem is?

What's that term?? ......innocent until proven guilty!

 

[gwbolton]

reply to ms_terese

i received the geckos at the begining of seot. 2002 took them to the vet 9/3/2002. vet records states 2 sick 1 dead from a infection. so i bought meds. from vet. dr. shaw. and gave it to the 2 remaining geckos and called jason that day to let him know. he seemed willing to solve the problem. in 2or 3 days the geckos got worst and died. jason offered me other geckos to replace them. i waited and no geckos arrived. then later i saw one of those geckos for sale on his site. i emailed him about is an he took it off his site. an told me he would send it to me. never did again. now if he had a problem why not tell me months ago. my opinion is i bought from him in good faith, got sick geckos, was promised replacments which he tried to sell them, when caught he made promises again and lied and now he makes claims of others that say i did them wrong and won't say who. i even talked to a friend of his who i did business with and he had no problems with me. and his reptiles where of high quality. i would buy from DK HERPS AGAIN because damin is a very honest guy. again all i ask for is what i am due the 150 dollars i paid for the albinos. if he doesn't believe me what did he offer the replacements before. and why when caught trying to sell the one gecko did he remove it from his web site and promise to sent it too me...

 

[sputnik]

NAME

Gary, you might want to put your name at the bottom of all your posts or in your signature. Otherwise, they will probably be deleted and what you then said will of meant nothing!

 

[ms_terese]

Gary, can you post the vet report? If not, can you post here what "infection" the lizards were diagnosed with?

Did you send pictures or the vet report to Jason?

Jason, did you receive pictures or a vet report?

Jason, did you agree to send a replacement? If you did, what was that decision based on and what changed your mind?

Jason, do the dates match with your records?

Who is DK Herps and how are they related to this?

 

[gwbolton]

slander

an as far as slander. when is the truth slander. if he was so sure the geckos were healthy then why offer me other geckos. also when i noticed the one gecko on his web site for sale why take it off and send me the email saying he will ship it when he has money. if he had a problem with it why not bring it up back in 2002. i gave him time to make good on a bad transaction. some people wouldn't have waited this long. he has had my email address and phone number how comes he waited so long to bring up all these problems. i called him lots of times to try to solve this, he even stated that he has my number on his caller id. i even talked to his wife an left a message and left messages on his answering machine. no reply. so now i warn others about him and suddenly 2 others pop out of the air telling him i wronged them but they do not want their name made public. get real... he just thought i would take this lost and grin and bear it. NOT..... like an old tv show once said If YOU DO THE CRIME YOU GOT To DO THE TIME.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I am not taking sides here, but it has always been a principle of mine that the accuser has the burden of proof upon him in any "bad guy" report. So, I am still asking Gary to provide us with some actual documentation of the illness about which he is speaking. Not his testimonial about the documentation . . .actual documentation.

Gary, in what town does your vet, Dr. Shaw, live in Pennsylvania? The reason I ask is because I just performed a search on american-verterinarian.com, and there is no listing of a Dr. Shaw anywhere in the State so far as I can see. Now, to be fair there may be some very good reasons why that is the case, which is why I am asking for further clarification from you, Gary. Just give us the full name of your vet and the town in which he/she practices, please.



Jason,

Your email to Gary suggests that you changed your mind in mid-stream, and one of the determinant factors was that you heard some unflattering statements about Gary from other sources. I understand how that goes, but since you had already agreed to give him a replacement of some sort (assuming that you actually did), don't you suppose that ought to be your continued plan? I can certainly understand your wanting to wait until Gary proves that the leos are, in fact, dead, but if he does supply you with that proof, shouldn't you just chalk this up to a learning experience and send him a gecko? Just a thought.

 

[hayshaven]

The dates are very close to accurate. I won't say for sure since the only record I have is of the actual sale, and not the phone calls afterward. The reason for the time gap is that one of the females that I had sold him laid eggs on Aug 17. This was the gecko that I had told him I would send. One egg hatched on Oct 4th. 6 weeks later when it was old enough for shipping the weather was very cold. The entire time these things were occuring, Gary and I kept in contact. Through these contacts it became obvious to me that his stories weren't matching up. I made the original deal to send the baby the same day he called the first time. I even questioned his story then, since I had never had any problem with any of them. If it hadn't been for the timing and weather, he would have got the gecko without a second thought from me. In the time that the eggs were incubating, he changed the vets diagnosis more than once. He also kept changing the number of geckos that died. And then he tried to change the terms of the deal. Asking for first a blue tongue skink, then a bearded dragon instead of the gecko. Luckily on my part the timing worked out to show me the truth. And yes, I have no problem admitting that I put the gecko on the site for sale. And that it was the wrong thing to do. I should have told him that I had decided not to send the gecko before I tried to sell it. And no, I never received photos or vet receipts for the lost geckos. I've also never received any kind of real diagnosis, or records of any medications that he was supposedly given for the geckos.
Jason Hays

 

[Darin Chappell]

By the way, "slander" is spoken. Writing known lies on a computer that actually cause damage to one's reputation and/or business would be known as "libel."

Both of them are extremely hard to prove, and it's just best to learn to not call names and not be so thin-skinned about people who do. At least, that's MHO.

 

[sputnik]

INFO

an as far as slander. when is the truth slander.

When you show us the documentation you have been asked and asked to produce! That's when it becomes the truth!

Your good word alone is NOT the truth, but an accusation without proof!

like an old tv show once said If YOU DO THE CRIME YOU GOT To DO THE TIME.

Once again, prove it! Produce the vet reports! Untill then, no one is gulity of anything. You seem to think he needs to "do the time" without a fair trial, without proof that he did the crime... NOT going to happen!

 

[gwbolton]

ok here is the info

Deleted - violation of FULL NAME rule!

(no, I wasn't kidding...)