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Hay's Haven

and just a responce to jason about the email he send me. you said if i report your actions it would hurt others.

A. by doing business like you did with me hurts others anyway because then they wonder if they should trust another breed next time they go to buy anything. as i was told by other make good on a sale and 3 people are told, sell in bad faith to a person and 11 people find out.

B. i have many dealings with my local HSUS and have no problems with them. matter of fact they where trying to get me to take a couple of iguanas off their hands. I don't touch them thou. but the HSUS has never given me a problem not with reptiles, or the persions my wife has, or before when I breed dogs.

C. you wrote about how much you lost so far. What about what I lost. I had planned to breed one of the albino female to the striped tang. male i had, the other two albino would be joined by 2 patternless females. plus other i planned to add in. so by my count i lost at least 64 babies that would have been born this year alone.

D. the most the HSUS has ever accused me with was spoiling my animals. that is because each aniaml in my home is a part of my family. i don't consider this to be a business or a hobby. I treat my reptiles just as I treat my daughter. both are very important to me. an both give me many hours of enjoyment. I feel they make my life fuller with them in it. And to lost one hurts because it is as if a close friend or brother has died.

well with that off my chest. I am not surprised from what you said in your letter. But lucky there are very few people like you who conduct business in bad faith. but as my grandmother told me "IT ONLY TAKES ONE BAD APPLE TO SPOIL A BUNCH. "

gary bolton
 
Gary,

Are you planning on reporting Jason to HSUS over this? That's what I got from your answers to Jason's letter, but I want to make certain I understand you correctly on this.

I'm with you about the fact that you are owed a refund of $150.00, and I also agree that Jason has severely, if not fatally, damaged his reputation as an honest individual. However, I really cannot see how ANY good can come from bring HSUS into a deal like this!

It may be that your local people are the greatest animal lovers in the world, and that they fully understand that your animals are cared for in the very best of conditions! They may fully agree that reptiles make wonderful pets, and that they should never be considered dangerous for responsible owners. But what will they do with the information you provide them? Will they keep it to themselves at the local level, or will they forward that information up the line to those in HSUS that very much want to BAN the ownership of all reptiles for private citizens?!?!?

Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water! Jason, pay this man his money! He has given you the documentation you asked for. You sent him animals, he took them to the vet the same day, they died, and his vet has offered to talk to you about their illness. That is more proof than you EVER get in this business! Is it POSSIBLE that Gary is in cahoots with his vet and they worked out this grand scheme to scam you ought of $150? Sure, but do you REALLY think that's what has happened here? Wouldn't it have been better for them to be doing this on high morph ball pythons or something instead of geckos??? Pay the man before he does something that will hurt everyone!

Gary, are you really so hung up about the $150 that you're willing to bring more reproach on the herp industry through HSUS? Over $150?!?!?!? I'm sorry, but I think that is rediculous. If it were me, I'd write that money off and say bad things about Jasosn every where I went. I'd keep this thread popping up once a month or so, just to remind everyone what a scammer he was. I would make certain that I sent him cards every so often, just so he knew I would never forget about his refusal to do what is right, but I would NEVER bring HSUS into this, or any other reptile deal!

The organization is all about making animal rights equal with human rights from a legal perspective, which will bring the pet industry down. They know they can't start something that radical by attacking kitten sales, so they use reptiles instead. If you bring HSUS into this mess, Gary, you'd be helping them do that. I'm sorry but I just cannot go along with you on that!

:hot:
 
To me this is not a black and white case..... it doesn't appear that any proper quarantine procedures were applied at all, if they had then there would not be dead fat tails!

It seems to me that Inappropriate quarantine has resulted in you killing your own fat tails. Anyone who gets a new addition (No matter what it is) quarantines it for a period of time! They don't handle new ones and then handle their other animals without washing their hands, which appears to of happened.

This whole thing is questionable at best.

You can't prove Jason sent sick geckos, so charges with UPS won't stick.... in fact they may do more damage to the shipping of reptiles then any good.... if people keep complaining over minor things like this then the over night carriers may well decide to drop shipping reptiles FULLSTOP!

Your husbandry is questionable and so is the vet you have!

Jason is NOT going to refund you. Sorry you geckos died, but why drag on with this thread?
 
Scott,

I don't think he's looking for compensation on his fat tails, so that is really a moot point. I do think that Jason owes him for the geckos he sent him, though. Assuming even that his husbandry practices are horrible, would they have died so soon after arrival? Are we now going to require vet reports then say, "Sorry, but your vet isn't good enough for me?" I mean, we're only taking about $150 here. Jason ought to consider that a cheap price to get Gary off his back, if nothing else, IMHO.
 
Darin,

If you had to lean way or the other then you could say a refund of $150 is due.

But do you think Jason is going to pay, I'd say NO!

There appear to be some unanswered questions below

In the letter, the vet deduced that fluid in the lungs meant pnuemonia and prescribed tetracycline. Every vet that I know of would have run a culture to determine the the actual infective agent. Where are the culture results? I really have to question the competance of this vet if she/he is real.
Click to expand...

This is why I question the vet!


Any vet worth their salt knows that in reptiles you need an antibiotic that will be active for gram-negative (hope I got that right) bacteria so an antibiotic like Baytril or Amykacin is preferred. What happened to the accusation that the geckos died of cellulitis? So we have gone from a skin disorder to a respiratory infection.

Another reason why I question the vet and this whole thing.

I feel for Gary losing his geckos, no one likes losing animals, but hope it doesn't go as far as HSUS, that won't help anyone!
 
I agree with you Scott but...

Any vet worth their salt knows that in reptiles you need an antibiotic that will be active for gram-negative (hope I got that right) bacteria so an antibiotic like Baytril or Amykacin is preferred.
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Scott,

That is exactly what should have been done in a "perfect world". But then again remember that a vet (or anyone for that matter)that has dealt with sick reptiles before can oftentimes tell if an animal is on death doors. Oftentimes they will have to use their best judgement and go with a "shotgun approach" using broad spectrum ATB. Had the vet waited in this case for an ATB sensitivity test, the geckos would have died before he could prescribe anything. As for the cellulitis, a simple phone call to the vet by Jason should clear that misunderstanding.

Regards. :)
 
I'm going to disagree...

I have to dissent.
Gary bought 8 leopard geckos from me on 8/24/2002. Approximately a week later he called saying that the 3 albinos were sick.
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i received the geckos at the begining of seot. 2002 took them to the vet 9/3/2002.
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i took your geckos to the vet i use the day after i got them like any other animal i get to protect my other animals.
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recieved the geckos the morning of 9/3/2002 same day i took them to the vet.
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the other geckos you sent me yes where older and after a lot of headaches giving them meds. they pulled through.
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the point of fact is the 3 albino geckos where sick on arrival one was in fact had died, i tried to save the other 2 but they died from the illness.
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I don't like it. Gary may be the most honest person on the planet, but if I were the seller, I'd balk at this. The letter from the vet is dated 9 months after the event, with no records to back it up. The time frames are wrong. There's no proof they were the same geckos. No photos. I think Hay's is within his rights to say "no" on this one.
 
I have to agree to disagree!

There's no proof they were the same geckos. No photos. I think Hay's is within his rights to say "no" on this one.
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Terese,

You may be right. There are some inconsistencies in the story. But I don't think Jason should "say no" and walk away before contacting the vet. He asked for a vet report and it was provided. He was further given the vet's phone number to call and ask all the questions he might have. He never contacted him. If after talking to the vet he is still not convinced he can then act accordingly. But not willing to call a "hopefully impartial" professional who can shed some light into this issue strucks me as odd. Don't you think?

Regards.
 
Unfortunate, yes. Odd, no.

I think Jason wrote this one off. Under the circumstances, I'm not sure I would blame him. I'm not saying I wouldn't handle it a bit differently, because I'd like to think I would investigate further for my own peace of mind, but I can't fault him for just walking away from this one. While Jason hasn't been nearly as vocal on this thread as Gary has, I think he's made it clear that he doesn't believe Gary's story.

I don't believe the letter that was scanned qualifies as a vet report, although it does clarify the diagnosis of one animal. Even if he spoke to the vet, the vet is going to have no memory of the event, but rather, will work off his records. That doesn't assist in establishing that these are the same leopard geckos, nor establishing the time frame.

Gary has been confused on treatment and diagnosis, and apparently when things died. No emails have ever been posted. No verification of shipping date. No dates about the death of the fat tails, or their replacement dates.

It was 9 months ago. Memories are fuzzy, records are questionable. In my own mind, I believe that neither of these men are scammers. I believe that both of them are fully convinced that they are correct and the other is in the wrong. I think Gary is overreacting, and Jason is turning his back on the situation. I wish EACH of them would handle it differently. However, I think that too much information is missing and too much time has elapsed to have a good resolution.

In other words, everyone lost on this one.
 
Terese,

You know what? I think you are right! Particularly when you say:

In other words, everyone lost on this one.
Click to expand...

Other coments:

I don't believe the letter that was scanned qualifies as a vet report, although it does clarify the diagnosis of one animal.
Click to expand...

Neither do I, and that's why I think it would be helpful to talk to the veterinarian. After all that was what was requested and provided by Gary.

Even if he spoke to the vet, the vet is going to have no memory of the event, but rather, will work off his records.
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Maybe. But at least is another opinion, and the one that was requested.

That doesn't assist in establishing that these are the same leopard geckos, nor establishing the time frame.
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Yes, they could be other geckos. But it was never denied that Gary, with all it's apparent inconsistencies, communicated to Jason his concern about the health of the animals witihn a reasonable time frame. Time went by, true, but was it Gary's or Jason's responsibility?

Gary has been confused on treatment and diagnosis, and apparently when things died. No emails have ever been posted. No verification of shipping date. No dates about the death of the fat tails, or their replacement dates.
Click to expand...

Again, true, but from both sides...

It was 9 months ago. Memories are fuzzy, records are questionable.
Click to expand...

Again, I agree with you. But who let the time go by. Gary? or Jason by not sending the replacement gecko he had initially offered?

In my own mind, I believe that neither of these men are scammers. I believe that both of them are fully convinced that they are correct and the other is in the wrong.
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Again, I completely agree.

I think that too much information is missing and too much time has elapsed to have a good resolution.
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I also agree. The problem is who was suppossed to act first.

Regards.

:)
 
*ding ding ding*

OK, the light clicked on, Daniel. You've made a very valid point.

The documentation wasn't forthcoming because Gary didn't feel it was needed. As a bit of time passed, Jason began questioning the events, but didn't tell Gary that right away.

Just as happened in this thread, Jason reacted by shutting down and avoiding Gary, and Gary reacted by becoming more and more persistent in his requests. Now everybody is backed into a corner, and there really will be no way for everyone to be happy. ((A quick apology to both of you for my armchair psychoanalysis))

Let me just throw this out there to both parties: Both of you share in some responsibility here. Would you be willing to meet half way? Work out a compromise? Agree to disagree, but find a resolution that you can both live with? Come out of this with some respect for each other, instead of the bad taste that I know is lingering for both of you?

As adults, we all need to work through issues. I really think that both are good guys. You might need a mediator to be the go between, but I'm guessing that both of you are mature enough to settle this once and for all.

:wavey:
 
You all may very well be right on this. Perhaps the refund should not be made at all, made on a compromise basis, made in full or something else in entirely. I guess I'm too wrapped up abou the other stuff to think clearly.

My MAIN POINT is that if I were in Gary's OR Jason's position, I would take $150 loss before I would even THINK of involving USPS or HSUS in this mess! I just cannot see dragging the whole industry through the wringer over a relatively small amount. I know it's a lot of money to some (it is to me!), but it's not so much that I'd just blindly charge ahead, regardless of the consequences.

That's my main concern in what I've read thus far, anyway. I'll hush now.
 
You're correct, Darin. It's time to solve this through good old fashioned communication and compromise rather than continuing the escalation.
 
ok yes i am a little pissed.
1st i lost $150
2nd messed up my whole breeding program.
3rd they where darn cute albino geckos hated to watch two of them die that way. i tried long an hard to save the 2 that surrived shipping but lost them too.
4th i feel as if he tried to make a fool of me by promising to replace them and then finding one of the geckos for sale on his web site.
then when i emailed him about it he promised to ship it when he has money and lies again to me.
i have never met someone like this before. i brought a ball python from a guy in florida and when i called him about it being overly agressive, he told me to ship it back and he replaced it with in 3 days. i took him at his word an Dave came through on his promise. this is what i expected Jason to do. but instead he lied to me at every turn.

so now i make it policy to take pics of all animals i buy on arrival. now i wonder who can i trust. i want to buy a mate for my snow striped corn snake but can i trust to buy it over the net or not.

because of people ripping people off like this is why people don't trust other anymore. sorry to the rest of you, but Jason just pushed me over the edge.

gary bolton

p.s. HSUS ain't that hard to deal with I see them every month or so. Pennsylvania branch tries to be real tough, but when they get a reptile in they call the closes herper to bale them out. an guess what I am only about a mile from the shelter.
 
Is the local shelter actually run by the HSUS? Because most Humane Society shelters have nothing to do with the HSUS, that's just another one of their tricks. I know my local one isn't.

Erin Benner
 
HSUS

SLOW DOWN!
HSUS is a VERY strong political entity. When you hear of new reptile laws constricting each state more and more, these are the forces lining the pockets of your senators. As herpers we need to govern ourselves as much as possible. They have and will continue to use any ammunition they can get their hands on. This is not a conspiracy, It is fact.

We (Herpers) are not organized enough at this point to compete with the HSUS. It's a political world and this organization is on a witch hunt unfortunately we're riding the broom.
 
no i am not reporting jason to hsus, no i am thinking about reporting him to the usps for not shipping me what he promised. he promised HEALTHY albino leopards geckos. i got SICK albino leopard geckos that died. plus as i stated earlier all the fancy footwork he tried to do with his promises to make good on the sales then trying to sell the promised animal, then getting caught and making more promises and lieing again. now he is whining that this is costing him money. well that is his problem if he would have done what is right, i won't of had to post on here. so i have decided to follow the plan of action recommend to me in chat on here. active this thread every so often to let people know to beware of him. if he ever does make good on the deal i will make that know to be fair.

gary bolton
 
still hasn't got me my refund

I still haven't forgotten you Jason. You still haven't made good on our deal.

Gary Bolton
 
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