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Ciro Spina

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Around March 20, 2002, I sold a pair of webfoot geckos (palmettogecko rangei) for 250 plus shipping.  The buyer asked how I kept them.  I said in a shoebox and with heat tape, etc.  

I shipped on March 25.  I emailed 2 or 3 times and no response.  Finally, I get a response, about a week later, saying they arrived fine and are healthy.  

Approx. April 22, approx, 1 month after having the animal, I get an email saying the male died.  The buyer told me that he kept them in a glass tank with above heat.  I used heat tape because they can't have a large nighttime drop (only a few degrees).  I asked several times if the above heat source was turned off at night, I didn't get an answer.  

Well, the buyer wants me to replace the male or give back 50 percent.  He said the male had a deteriorating condition from the beginning.  Should I oblige him?  It has been about a month and the animals were not kept as I instructed.   I don't think I am liable, but would like to hear from my peers.  

I feel bad the animal died and emailed other breeders of the animal to find a male for him, but no one had an adult male.  Oh well, let me know what you all think.  Please no derogatory comments about me or him.  Just G-rated opinions.  

Ciro Spina
 
you can't say ....they are fine...then one month later say ..."hey it was deteriorating from the start."
You did not get an answer on how the herp was kept at night.
Probably got sick through improper husbandry.

What terms did you discuss if any?
If you discussed terms......stick to those terms.
if you did not discuss...........oh well..one month is waaay too long.....and he refuses or is unable to tell you what he does at night.

I gues..it is your choice....but if the animal died because of improper husbandry...........too bad too sad..

MY terms are 14 days....
 
If the gentleman who purchased the geckos did not house them as they needed to be housed, as you instructed him to house them, then unless a vet performs an autopsy that shows ongoing diseasem I don't see how you could be held responsible.

But too, keeping customers happy is important.
I had a gecko I purchased, who continued to lose weight, I  finally donated her to a vet to see if he could help her live. she died anyway. The breeder refunded full price to me even before I donated her to the vet. She didn't have to, as I'd had her for about a month and did not pay for an autopsy, but she chose to. I did, however, keep in contact with her the whole time (I also knew how to house geckos).

No, I do not think you are responsible and shouldn't have to pay him back. Unless, he has a vet document to prove otherwise, he was wrong in his care.

This dilema requires that you  look inside your self and choose the road that feels most comfortable.

Best wishes in whatever path you choose.
Laura
 
Thats a judgement call on your part.  Please keep in mind that I am not questioning your integrity.  In your mind if you honestly 100% sold him a healthy flawless gecko then I believe that you do not have any liability to this customer unless you made some sort of extended guarantee on the animal.  If you may have sold him an unhealthy animal in any way then I think you owe retribution.  

One more point to consider is this, sometimes its just better to give in on something like this.  I'm not sure what those geckos cost.  But it might just be easier to give the guy a refund of some sort.  It will make him happy and avoid any confrontations.  I know alot of ppl are thinking that it is the principal of the thing that matters.  If that bothers you then fine do what you wish.  But in my mind I would rather go ahead and do what is necessary to
 
oops the rest of that was:
But in my mind I would rather go ahead and do what is necessary to err on the side of being a "nice" guy(within reason).  I do agree with the other posts above.  But sometimes its easier not to bother.
Ryen
 
hard to guarentee the health of an animal after it has been out of your posession for a month.  if you have no doubt that you sent a healthy animal, dont refund him.  especially if this person was not in contact with you throughout the month...

if this person were to contact you prior to let you know that he was worried about the animal's health, I'm sure you could have helped to talk him through any husbandry issues.  If he did not contact you, there is nothing you can do about it.
did he give you any more info?  was the animal not eating?  i know our webfoot male wont eat very well if housed with females because he only has one thing on the mind, if ya know what i mean.  he should have kept you updated.

my "terms" list just gets longer and longer everyday i read this forum.

Dana
btw Richie, i'm happy to see you are using my favorite pic  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
 
Ciro....I realize that since this board started...everyone is getting so paranoid that they WON'T do the right thing, and all the others will jump on them??? There are times and circumstances (LIKE THESE) where you KNOW you're in the right! You don't need our approval??? He's asking for the return of his money for a GECKO after A MONTH??? Ciro...if you give this clown ONE DIME....you're out of the union!! I'm all for doing the right thing...but, there ARE limits!! He's CROSSED his!! ...Neil
 
Hey Ciro,

                 First off you dont give one month guarantees on all your reptiles ..... DO YOU ?  If the answer is yes then I know there are a lot of people who would buy their reptiles from you, because they can take them home .... abuse them, kill them and as long as they get them back dead or alive in a month they will get their money back !!!  Cmon man !  You have to stay your ground or you will be walked on just like a sidewalk !!!  Its nice you want to " Do the right thing " but that point is way past you now.  Just because you sold him the animal does not mean you are responsible for it the rest of its life !!!  If that was the case I would never sell another reptile !!!  If the Gecko you sold him was showing any signs of doing poorly then he should have at least contacted you and let you know prior to the death.   This guy is thinking  .... mmmmm I got a dead gecko ..... what do I do ?.....mmmmmm  I KNOW !!!!  I will take it back to the guy I bought it from and get my money back because he doesnt know any better, yeah thats it !!  Cmon Ciro your a business man not the guys dad for crying out loud .



Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
Ciro - I feel for you there guy.. I'm kind of in a similar position myself.. I sold a pair of milksnakes exactly one month ago, and was told yesterday the female was doing poorly and that the buyer was afraid she might not make it.. Just as in your case, there was no previous contact before the e-mail I received Monday.. I feel we have two viable options:
1) Refund the money and or offer a replacement animal - Like you I don't have a replacement female on hand, so would have to go the cash route.. These are not your everyday milksnakes, so it's a decent amount of money...

2) Stick with the refund policy we carry (72 hours) and honor that..

First, I've already decided (go ahead and kick me out of the union Neil  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> ) to offer him a refund of the money (with the original animal sent back to me to treat) or a replacement animal as soon as my clutches start hatching and I can sex the animals.. I'm doing this as for the amount of money the animal cost, it's not worth my time to squabble over it.. I'm taking the buyer at his word on the treatment of her once she left my reptile room, and assuming the animal is deteriorating for reasons beyond either of our control.
I know this could open a can of worms for us, but I always placed my breeding of snakes as a hobby first, and a business second..
To finish this up, go with gut instincts Ciro.. Think about being in his shoes, and what you would do to address the exact same issue..

Here's to hoping your situation (and mine) work out  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes
 
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'> well,,,,,,i gotta go w/neil ,,there are timelines but a month com'on <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> ,,,,,you owe this person nothing,,,,,peace thomas davis T&Sreptile farm
 
Stephen....I admire your morality, but...you're doing that because you WANT TO....NOT, because you HAVE TO!! Nobody can take advantage of you unless you LET THEM!! Where does it end?? I'm sorry, but....if it were ME....I would politely refuse their demands! But,....you do whatever rocks your boat! ....Neil
 
I don't think the guy is trying to take advantage of me, he said that he knows that I don't have to give him a replacement animal or 50 percent.  I guess he was trying to test the water.  If they were hatchlings, I may have replaced it because hatchlings aren't always the hardiest of animals.  However, this pair was over a year old and completely healthy when they left my possession.  I totally think it was a husbandry situation, but I feel bad.  I gave the buyer the email address of the guy I got them from to see if he could get another male and then I emailed someone selling pairs to see if they would sell a single male (for some reason, they wouldn't).  

In closing, I feel really bad, but I wrote an email saying I wasn't liable.  I will continue to help find him another adult male, but I won't pay for it (if he wants me to help).

Ciro Spina
 
Ciro,


             Sounds like you did the right thing and even went above and beyond trying to find him another male.  I think you did the responsible and honorable thing here and there is no reason you should feel bad.  If every time you sold an animal to someone who did not take care of it the way you instructed was able to bring back an animal or just get money back or even another animal then you would have nothing to sell other to that one idiot customer.  You said you had the animal for a year and it was fine and healthy ... right ?, So this guy gets it and kills it in a month ..... how is that your fault ?If it were me I wouldnt sell him another animal unless I was fairly sure he was keeping it correctly, a month is a lot of time to not hear anything from the customer, if he was at least emailing you weekly or had called prior and stated there was a problem that would have been a whole different story, he waited till it was almost dead and then says " Hey I need a new one "  what the hell is that about ?


Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
I have a different opinion on this issue.  If I had a $250 pair of geckos was in my hands for any length of time and I was CONFIDENT that they were 100% healthy when I sold them, I would not only not refund the money, but I would be PISSED OFF that the guy KILLED it!  I get attatched to most of the animals that I own and I hate to see them leave.  I would not only not replace the gecko, but I wouldn't even help the guy get another.  I would be too worried that he would kill it too.  These are LIVE animals here.  Not $$!  It's not like he's lost $125.  He killed a living, breathing animal.  Not purposly, but he didn't ask for help until it was gone.  He may be out $125, but it's his own doing and the animal is dead forever.  
My 2 cents,
-Lucas
 
i agree with lucas wholeheartedly except on one point.  i would help him find another except this time, i would give exact husbandry information and say, "if you don't follow this, your new animal and the other survivor will both die."  at this point, i would be finished helping this person on the business side of the transaction and i would only help out with the occasional husbandry question.
but like others have said, i think you are trying too hard to be a good guy, do it if you want, but no one would look down upon you for not helping a person who wont help their self.  no refund, no free replacement, just aid in finding a new one, and knowledge (and even that would be going above and beyond the call of duty).
 
I had a similar situation happen with me.. I sold the guy a bunch of albino fat-tails..They were fine when they arrived and he was cool.2 months later he emailed me saying 2 had died. he wanted them replaced and i sayed no way..no one gaurantees their animals for 2 months..Needless to say i offered to replace one and i never heard back form him..IMO..Dont send him anything..i can understand after one day..but a month ..NOWAY..
 
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